Talk:Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska

Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: January 11, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Joker in Gotham.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at he tfile description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change[edit]

I think "Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska" sounds a bit clunky. Is a name change possible? I think we ought to rename the page to either "The Joker (Gotham)" (as the characters are meant to embody the Joker, and Jeremiah has been confirmed as the man himself) or "The Valeska Brothers" (as they have been referred to in the show). Capin' Jack (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Kingofsting87 (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No. They are not the Joker. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 18:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could change it to "the Joker mythos in Gotham"? --Kingofsting87 (talk) 14:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you're kidding. Also, please see WP:INDENT. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 15:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not kidding, the page is more of an archive of how Gotham dealt with the Joker Kingofsting87 (talk) 19:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kingsif (talk · contribs) 02:48, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this, comments should be added in the next few days. Kingsif (talk) 02:48, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Everything that needs to be cited is
All sources look good
Copyvio check clear - just quotations
Small fair use images of characters in infobox
Good use of quote boxes
History looks fine
There was some debate about changing the page name, but it seems to have died
Passes: verifiability, copyright, illustration, stability
lead a good length for article
One point: when I first read "fanatic followers", I assumed it was talking about fans of the show (even with "in the series" there - in my dialect, at least, this is another way to say "of the series"). The rest of the sentence concerned me until I read on and realized these were in the show. I don't know if this can be altered.
- Done Dark Knight 2149 23:29, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- On a similar note, there's no section on the reaction to the character. Would this be appropriate?

Done Dark Knight 2149 01:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At the part ...but also "characters that may or may not be the Joker" that may be "an amalgamation..., "that may be" is repeated - is there a way to avoid this?

Done [1] Dark Knight 2149 06:52, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The development section is part-development, part-character bio. I think this should be refined.
I find it strange that Jerome was on the show for much longer, but has a shorter section on characterization - is this the limit of the sources?

Partially, but also because Jeremiah's character went through multiple variations on the show. Whereas Jerome remained the same throughout, Jeremiah started off as a regular protagonist. Then he became a stoic criminal mastermind akin to the Golden Age Joker. Then he evolved into a more flamboyant and arrogant supervillain akin to The Dark Knight Returns Joker in Season 5. Then he was dumped into a vat of chemicals, catatonic for a few episodes, and then came out transformed with a completely new characterisation. So Jerome stayed the same until he was killed off, while Jeremiah is basically three or four different characters rolled into one. Dark Knight 2149 07:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Reading it, some of Jeremiah's characterization section is again a bit of character bio.
Overall, it's very well written, but some things seem to be in the wrong places (specifically, there is no character bio, but bits of bio throughout). There is potential for a response section. Style and coverage need work
Passes neutrality
On hold Kingsif (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's not polite to interrupt a GA review, but it's allowed by WP:GAREV. I've noticed a major flaw on it that the reviewer hasn't mentioned at all. So I though I need to do it now instead of waiting to open a GAR later. There's nothing about the characters' reception on it and it's kinda of common practice for fictional characters (especially TV characters) for the sake of completeness. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the interruption - FYI, I will always appreciate other editors bringing up anything important I've missed - but in this case, I did mention the lack of response section a few times! Glad we're on the same page, though, too! Kingsif (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Dark Knight 2149 01:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Previous updates. Dark Knight 2149 04:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Sorry for the slight wait. I have already been pulling up sources to use to create a Reception section. As far as the plot summary is concerned, I don't believe that a section devoted specifically to plot/backstory is needed. Not only is the plot covered in episode articles and various episodes lists at Category:Gotham (TV series), but Character biography sections can sometimes be hotbeds for excessive detail, fancruft, and large unnecessary additions of poor writing. This is why I chose to focus more on how the character was portrayed and developed throughout the series, and only went into plot summary when pertinent. Most of the necessary events are covered, in fact. Each character only appeared (at most) a few episodes per season. In this particular article, I'm not sure that a themed section on plot summary/backstory would add anything substantive that isn't already covered.

I'm about to create the Reception section, though. That sounds like a fantastic way to make the article even more informative and address any lingering concerns of completeness. It will be added shortly. Dark Knight 2149 23:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update #2: Nearly there. ~~I should be finished typing the section tomorrow, by which I will hit the "Publish changes" button.~~ Wrapping up the section right now. Dark Knight 2149 05:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Final update: We're nearly there! I have finished the Jerome part of the reception section. Now I just have to add Jeremiah's, which shouldn't take nearly as long. It took a little longer than expected, but I now have no doubt that the section will be finished tomorrow. Dark Knight 2149 04:24, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: @Gabriel Yuji: The Reception section is completed. Dark Knight 2149 01:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkknight2149: I like it, great work! Kingsif (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]