Talk:Joe Davis

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Lead needs work[edit]

The lead section is far too ho-hum, and does not summarize why Davis is notable.

Memoirs[edit]

I remember him publishing his memoirs, titled 'The Breaks Came My Way'. I don't know if there are any reviews of this book. Valetude (talk) 16:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Televised Century[edit]

Markham Wildman (i.e. Mark Wildman) made a televised century break in November 1960. However, a contemporary newspaper report (Sports Argus - Saturday 12 November 1960, page 3) says he was the first amateur to do so, "and the second player - Joe Davis being, of course, the first - to have ever done so." So either the century against Pulman (mentioned in the article) was before this rather than in 1962, or Wildman was the first, or there was an earlier televised century by Davis. (Or the sources are wrong about Wildman being first.) Can anyone confirm which? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:56, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the claim that Davis made the first televised century from the article. Everton (Guinness Book of Snooker, 1981) says "Two amateurs, Mark Wildman (1962) and Jonathan Barron (1963) made century breaks on television before any professional did." Morrison (Hamlyn Encyclopedia of Snooker) also says it was Wildman who made the first televised century, and also has 1962. There is some confusion over the date but based on sources I've seen, it was Wildman first. Other internet sources may be taking the BBC video of Davis (or this Wikipedia page) as the source for Davis being the first. If anyone can clear this up, thanks! BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sections removed[edit]

I have removed "Steve Davis, who held the record for most professional tournament wins and himself is generally regarded as the beginning of the modern game, has stated that if he could play against a player from the past, it would be Joe Davis, to "find out how good he really was".[1]" - Steve Davis does say in the book that he would like to play Joe "and see what he was like and to see what his standard was" but I don't see that him really singling Joe out when talking about other greats there. Also "generally regarded as the beginning of the modern game" would need a source. Please add this back in if it can be sourced.

I've also taken out "Davis is widely perceived as one of the greatest players of all time by enthusiasts and fellow professionals, including five-time World Champion Ronnie O'Sullivan.[2]" and replaced it with a quote from O'Sullivan's autobiography referencing one of Davis' books. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Davis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 13:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs)

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Immediate Failures[edit]

  • It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria -
  • It contains copyright infringements -
  • It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). -
  • It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. -

Links[edit]

Prose[edit]

Lede[edit]

Expanded and rewritten. No doubt it can be improved further BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General[edit]

Early life[edit]
  • Common shortenings of names, such as Joseph in this case aren't needed to be explained (although, per MOS, the lede should say Joseph Davis (born...) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - if I've amended this in the right place. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whittington Moor, The Queen's Hotel, - this probably needs explaination Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - changed word order, added that there was a billiard room. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davis lost to Fred Lawrence both in the semi-final of an invitational professional tournament at Thurston's Hall in 1920 and in the final of his first professional championship, the 1921 Midlands Counties Billiards Championship - this makes no sense. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - split into two sentences and added "open." Will be a bit more explicit about invitation event vs. open championship if needed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davis won the 1922 Midlands Counties Billiards Championship, beating Lawrence in the week-long final - do we have a score? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - Davis' own book is wrong. He beat Lawrence in the semi-final and Dennis in the final. Changed source, included score. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davis an entry into the professional championship. - it says he's already played in some professional championships... Is this the proper name? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - amended name here and a bit later. Looks like it was generally referred to in the press as the "Professional Championship"; Everton's History of Billiards has it in the list of champions as the "BA&CC Championship" from 1920 to 1932 and the "World Professional Championship" from 1933 to 1973. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What happened in 1925?
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He would defend his title for the next three years – against Newman again in 1929 and 1930 and New Zealander Clark McConachy in 1932. - winning two world titles needs a bit of an expansion. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Snooker[edit]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ] He retired from the event following this victory making him, as of 2015, - needs update Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - please see whether this looks OK now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • but it never took off.[citation needed] - CN needed, probably needs a rewrite anyway. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Does this work? I tried not to overcomplicate it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - the Daily Mirror in 1978 says he had a heart attack, but I didn't find that in any other sources so have omitted it. I've used Everton's 2012 book as the source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy[edit]
  • Davis won fifteen World Championship titles - MOS:NUM -> 15. This should read that he won 19 World Championships. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done but may need tweaking. The event wasn't called the world snooker championship originally but is recognised as such now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and lost off level terms only four times in his career - needs explaination. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - I've reworded the earlier reference to handicapping, as well as this. May need further work, I'll await your advice. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Changed. I don't have the book but I think Callan was making a claim for Joe Davis as the best of all time to that point - this would include him being the better of him and Steve, so the amendment made is safer. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Other[edit]
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Cite_book#Identifiers says "include [ASIN] only if standard identifiers are not available." I've changed one but can't find a different identifier for the others. I considered links to British Library records but the urls are horribly long. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments[edit]

  • Automated note - If you fancy returning the favour, I have outstanding GA nominations that require reviewing at WP:GAN. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these, however it's definitely not mandatory. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs)
Sorry about the delay BennyOnTheLoose - see above comments Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:48, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Lee Vilenski, all very helpful observations. I've made quite a few changes but expect there may well be further items to-do following this. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you may take this to FAC? I'd have some further comments then (mostly improving the lede), but as for now, it's fine for GA. Well done. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:56, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lee Vilenski Many thanks for your constructive review. Yes, I think Joe is important enough that FA should be the target, so all further observations very welcome. I think his snooker career and the legacy section could do with more expansion, as well as the lede. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Steve Davis autobiography Interesting 2015
  2. ^ Ronnies Snooker Hotshots DVD 2004 Top Ten greatest players

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(
)

Improved to Good Article status by BennyOnTheLoose (talk). Self-nominated at 11:44, 19 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

General eligibility:

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Recently elevated to GA status so it passes newness, there aren't any unsourced sentences, and I see no plagiarism, neutrality, or grammatical problems. I approve ALT0 as being the only unbeaten person is more interesting. Jon698 talk 14:44 19 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see an inline cite for the hook fact in the article. Yoninah (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Yoninah thanks for looking at this. I have made a small addition to the article, adding the 1927 to 1946 period into the same sentence as the unbeaten statement, but I'm not sure if that addresses your concern. I am, of course, happy to make any further changes as necessary. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @BennyOnTheLoose: yes, that does the trick, thanks. Do you want to use the more encyclopedic "undefeated" instead of "unbeaten"? Yoninah (talk) 21:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. Restoring tick per Jon698's review. Yoninah (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox (number of titles)[edit]

As there is no mention of ranking tournaments in the article, nor link to explain what they are here, I'd suggest it's better to omit "Non-ranking: 24" from the tournament wins section. Davis retired from snooker decades before the ranking system. The total of 24 also omits his billiards titles. (See also Talk:Walter_Donaldson_(snooker_player)#Infobox) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 15:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Davis → Joe Davis (snooker player) – The announcer, who is the voice of the World Series, Los Angels Dodgers and does NFL games is the primary topic. Google Joe Davis and the announcer is clearly the primary topic. The announcer also receives many more page views. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 14:19, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose The snooker player is clearly the primary topic. We're comparing the snooker player who won the first 15 world championships and single-handedly turned an obscure pastime into the massive sport that snooker is today, with an announcer. From an encyclopedic perspective there's no comparison. In a generation or two time the snooker player will still be a big name in snooker while the announcer (who I've never heard of) will be a footnote in history. Do all American soap stars, broadcasters, etc have to be the primary topic simply because they get a lot of page views? Surely not. Classic case of recentism IMO. Nigej (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Google search results are a pretty poor way to judge the primary topic. This person is clearly the primary topic. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Nigej. YorkshireExpat (talk) 17:22, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The snooker player is listed in Britannica and other established reference sources; and he has 30 different language Wikipedia entries compared to one for the sportscaster. I don't think Google results are the best metric but, for me (maybe due to geography or past search history), all of the first page results are for the snooker player. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support the snooker player may be primary by long-term significance but not by usage, the sportscaster has more views (4,773) than the snooker player (3,745)[[7]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:27, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Clear primary topic by long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Added info (thought this would be the best place to store it)[edit]

Over a 20-year period, Davis won four World Billiards Championship titles and 15 World Snooker Championship titles. Other than in handicapped matches in which he conceded a start, he lost only four times, all towards the end of his career and against his brother Fred.

Everton has said of Davis's influence on the game in the early 1920s: "in those days, the prevailing idea was to pot a red or two, a couple of colours and play safe but in the time he could spare from billiards Davis devoted considerable thought and practice to evolving the positional and break-building shots, sequences and techniques which are taken for granted today.

Fred Davis, the second person to become a world champion at both snooker and billiards, said that his brother Joe was "a very good player before anyone else knew how to play the game. Ted Lowe, manager of Leicester Square Hall and later a snooker commentator for the BBC, wrote that "because of his magnetism, snooker was able to replace billiards in most clubs, pubs and billiard halls. Journalist Donald Trelford provided a similar assessment in his book Snookered (1986), writing that Davis had the vision to identify snooker as a replacement for billiards and "had the organizing genius and force of habit to make things happen in that moribund world."

Davis was not able to focus with his right eye; he played with his cue to the left of his chin.[19] Coach Frank Callan, in his book Frank Callan's Snooker Clinic (1989), compared the most successful player at the time, Steve Davis, to Joe Davis and concluded that Joe was the better player.

While learning to play snooker, Steve Davis was heavily influenced by Joe Davis's book How I Play Snooker (1956). Ronnie O'Sullivan said of one of Davis's coaching books: "2007–8 ... was one of my best years and it was all because I was reading the Joe Davis book." O'Sullivan again paid tribute to Davis after claiming his sixth world title in 2020.

Everton wrote that, following his retirement from the world championship, Davis "through his force of personality ... controlled the game", being the pre-eminent player, chairman of the professional players' association, a co-owner of the Leicester Square Hall (the main venue for professional matches), and the negotiator for television contracts.

Davis was nicknamed "Mr Snooker", "the Sultan of Snooker" and "the Emperor of Pot". Sandman1142 (talk) 10:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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