Talk:Kaul

Message

The above information does not seem to be correct. Kaul is a very prominant surname of Kashmiri pandits from Kashmir. The tribal Kauls from Madhya Pradesh do not have anything common with the Kauls of Kashmir.

Moved this info from article on Kaul page to here for discussion. A separate article on Kauls of Kashmir can be created. burdak 15:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Bad grammar

This article is in a bad way. It was clearly not written with regard for the English language. --Maurice45 (talk) 20:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It is much improved now. Further improvements by addition of images and content required. -Ambar (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

My recent revert

I have just (again) reverted some contributions made by one editor. The sourcing, where it existed at all, was often poor;it reintroduced scripts into the lead when the editor had specifically been informed that this was inappropriate; it reintroduced a list of supposed notable Kauls that was, at best, of dubious merit and veracity.

That editor was asked previously to discuss their contributions. Perhaps this time they will do so. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Since the message does not appear to be sinking in, despite various attempts to explain, here is an "all in one place" summary:

• For the "no scripts" decision, please see here and here.
• For the "no flags" rule, please see WP:MOSFLAG
• For unacceptability of using a last name to determine caste, please consider WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:OR
• For the need to self-identify as a member of a caste, please see this
• For unsourced statements and inappropriate removal of {{ref improve}} tags, please consider WP:V and WP:Citing sources
• For issues with linking, please read WP:OVERLINK
• For guidance regarding sourcing, please read WP:RS and WP:SPS. Note that Dewans' book is a general guide to J&K & I am unsure of his qualifications etc, and that koausa.org is an advocacy group.

Hope this helps, - Sitush (talk) 14:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

My Reply to Sitush

• For the "no scripts" decision, please see here and here.

Indic scripts are necessary to ensure correct pronounciation, specially for Indian Names. Each language may have a certain specific (& slightly different method) of vowel pronounciation, currently best explained using the Indian laungauges best represented by the Indic Scripts.
Also, since Kaul (Kol, Koul) is a Kashmiri Surname, & the launguage Kashmiri is written predominantly in two scripts today - Devnagari & Nastaleeq. Hence, since here it solves a useful purpose, they should be allowed.

• For the "no flags" rule, please see WP:MOSFLAG

Indian Flag is removed.

• For unacceptability of using a last name to determine caste, please consider WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:OR

I agree. Have changed the description 'sub-caste' --> 'Community', which I feel is more appropriate.

• For guidance regarding sourcing, please read WP:RS and WP:SPS. Note that Dewans' book is a general guide to J&K & I am unsure of his qualifications etc, and that koausa.org is an advocacy group.

Parvez Dewan is a IAS Officer (Indian Administrative Services Officer). Dewan was the Divisional commissioner of Kashmir, India @ the time of writing this book. His name and listing can be verified on the Goverment of India website http://persmin.nic.in/civillist/AsOnToday/AgeListCL.asp?Slab=8&Cadre=JK&AsOnDate=01/01/2010. Relavant ISBN & Publishing House information was provided.
He graduated from St Stephen's in New Delhi (one of India's premier colleges, based in New Delhi), & @ Cambridge was awarded the Jennings prize for highest marks in class (1987). He was also an editor in several notable Indian newspapers - 'Hindustan Times' & 'Times of India' both of which are amongst the most circulated papers in India. He also extensively wrote in magazines like India Today & Stardust.
Am changing the kousa.com --> Valley of Kashmir by Walter R. Lawrence, Settlement Comissioner for Kashmir(London, Henry Frowde, Oxford University Press Warehouse, 1985), Pg 304 This should meet credibility requirements.

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further reply -----------

For your comments "it reintroduced a list of supposed notable Kauls that was, at best, of dubious merit and veracity."
This comment is highly objectionable - specially since the list includes the first prime minister of India, Jawahar Lal Nehru. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs) 09:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Scripts are not acceptable. I do not care what you think about that issue because there is WP:CONSENSUS regarding it and that consensus has emerged very recently.

Changing "caste" or "subcaste" to "community" does not resolve anything,

I still do not understand what it is that makes Dewan a reliable source but I'll try to do some digging because he seems to have had a remarkably varied career.

Your change from kousa is welcome & I will probably reinstate it (sorry, I am playing catch-up here and may have removed some worthwhile contributions along with some that were less so).

Nehru is one name among many in that list. - Sitush (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

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updated version -----------
I have revised the edit based on the above comments.

Regarding the list of notable Kauls, kindly revert if you have any concerns on any specific inclusion. We are starting with three important ones that I have listed & will gradually include more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs) 18:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

You are supposed to discuss, not just keep reinserting stuff. This has been explained on your talk page here. Right now, you are heading towards a whole heap of trouble. I suggest that you slow down a little. - Sitush (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Lawrence

Lawrence (1895) was used to support a part of "Kauls or Kouls trace their lineage to Dattatreya, the legendary son/decendent of Maharishi Atri & Devi Anusuya, Atri bein&g one of the ten Prajapati's or Mind Sons of Brahma." The page was given as 304 but I cannot find this content there - see http://www.archive.org/stream/valleyofkashmir00lawruoft#page/304/mode/2up. The citation was incorrectly formatted and I wonder if this is a part of the problem? Oh, and it is "descendant", not "descendent" (a common error, and easily remedied if the content is reinstated!) Please also note that we try to avoid using such old sources as this. Is there nothing more modern? - Sitush (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
-- reply to above --
Will be modifying to "Among the Kashmiri Pandits is a Gotra called Dattatreya, & from this Gotra have sprung the great families of Kol (Kaul) .. " Dattatreya was Born to Sage Atri

You cannot do that. The citation is useless and your phrasing is not neutral. - Sitush (talk) 16:43, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

References

Raj Kaul & Nehru

I believe that we can include the Raj Kaul content which I recently removed, but we would have to rephrase it to emphasise that it is Nehru's opinion and not necessarily fact. Autobiographies are tricky sources. - Sitush (talk) 19:20, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
-- reply to above --
For the Raj Kaul statement, would be using the following -
Nehru states in his autobiography:
that his ancestor Raj Kaul was a Kashmiri who migrated to Delhi around the year 1716. Kaul had been their family name, in later years this dropped out & we became simply Nehru's.
Kindly also revert on your study of Parvez Dewan & the list of notable kauls. Plan to include the following

• Jawahar Lal Nehru - First Prime Minister of India
• Mani Kaul (1944-2011) - Indian filmmaker, Filmfare Critics Award (1969), National Film Award (1974)
• Kailas Nath Kaul (1905-1983) - Botanist & agriculture scientist. Established the National Botanical Research Institute at Lucknow in 1948. Has Five plant species & One Plant Genus named after him, including genus "Kaulinia Polypodiaceae" (polypod ferns)
• S K Kaul - Swaroop Krishna Kaul was the Air Cheif Marshall of Indian Air Force between 1993 & 1995
  

to start with. Ambar 16:25, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Look, if you can find reliable sources to support that those people are/were members of the Kaul community then that is fine. But you have never been able to do this so far, even when there was a separate article listing supposed members. As far as Raj Kaul is concerned, we are back with a similar problem: is this article intended to be about the surname or the community? It cannot reasonably be about both. - Sitush (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Will try and explain. In India, the Gotra (literally meaning 'the source' in Sanskrit) is the root or originator of a community. Several communities may trace lineage to a single Gotra. In Kashmir (& rest of India), a gotra can have several Krams (appellation). These Krams (appellations) may become communities depending on the popularity and usage of the Kram.
Example - Kaul Kram or Community has the following Surnames derived from it
- Harkauli
- Jailkhani
- Kaul
etc
So, even though Kaul is a surname, it is also a community, an appellation (a Kram) at the same time. Let me know if you understand and agree. Ambar 17:01, 12 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

Yes, I am well aware of how the system works. But we cannot rely on the last name to identify someone's caste etc. This has been discussed on numerous articles and has always achieved the same result, ie: it is not acceptable. I rather think that you and I have discussed it previously also. - Sitush (talk) 17:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I am using the word community (& not caste). Would suggest that these are two different descriptions with different meanings. Ambar 17:21, 12 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

Let me get this straight.

• The article currently says "sub-caste"
• You want to change that to "community"
• You then want to list people who have the last name "Kaul" because they are members of the "community"

Am I right so far? - Sitush (talk) 17:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I want to change 'Sub-Caste' to 'Community, Surname or Kram', as Kaul could be either of the three. Then I could explain how the Kaul Family Tree (Kaul Community) has branched out into several others surnames - which include but are not limited to Hindus & Muslims (& in certain rare cases, Christians) I have most of my reference books back in India, & would have access to them only in May when I return. Till then, will have to keep this article minimal due to limited access to good quality resources. Maybe introduce key points step by step.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs) 18:19, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can do it. You would be conflating different meanings and should instead start separate articles for the various uses. If you do not then you are almost certainly going to keep hitting problems regarding verification versus original research, eg: someone might bear the surname of Kaul but not self-identify as a member of the community. If they do not self-identify then you cannot mention them. Furthermore, I do not think that you should start anything without reliable sources, and if that means waiting for a few months then so be it. You might also benefit from a read of WP:COATRACK, although I am not suggesting that you are intending to be biased. - Sitush (talk) 18:43, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Starting separate articles for the Kaul Community & Kaul surname would not be possible, because they are in essence the same thing (one being the subset of the other). Well, one idea is that I can start this article as a Kram & Surname article and expand (modify) it later to include community when there is enough content.

btw ... I was not suggesting that I use unreliable resources, but the fact that I would be able to add more content later, starting one subject at a time now.
For example, will be modifying the sub-caste to Kram or Surname now, & also include Raj Kauls statement.
& would then add the list of notable Kauls. Ambar 19:22, 12 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

-- Coatrack --

I read the Coatrack article ... & sometimes there is a very thin line, but on the whole understand the implications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs) 19:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

To say that the kram and the surname are the same thing is pure original research. I'd challenge you to find a source that says every person in the world who bears the Kaul surname is of the community to which you refer ... but it would be a pointless exercise because, as I said earlier, this is just a rehash of similar situations that have applied to other articles, such as lists of alleged members of various castes (eg: List of Nairs). - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

A Kram is a appellation - a title or a nickname, a popular method of naming Kashmiri Pandits. The Kaul Surname is also a Kram (an appellation). They may not always be the same thing, however the Kaul article being referred to is describing both. Offcourse, there could be people with the surname Kaul in other parts of the world (Germany, USA, Africa, Australia) who may or may not trace their origins to Kashmiri Kauls. However, since there is no request yet for inclusion of these names, it can not be added now. Once such a request or edit comes in, we may modify the article to mention that Kaul may refer to multiple surnames in various parts of the world. If you still feel its innappropriate, I could follow your suggestion since you mention that you have some experience with such issues in the past. Ambar 00:57, 13 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

Ambar wiki, you are not getting the message. You need to back up your assertions with reliable sources. Until and unless you come up with said sources, that information can't be included. Continuing to push your idea without backing it up will be seen by others as disruptive editing, and I or another admin won't look kindly on it. I don't want to get involved in the discussion, but I want to make sure you understand what Sitush is saying. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:37, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The Blade, do we have consensus on adding Raj Kaul as the ancestor of India's first prime minister JawaharLal Nehru. I have already shared reliable sources for that in my earlier talk with Sitush. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.159.61 (talk) 08:25, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I have not supported that yet! The proposed wording was all wrong and there is still a really big issue regarding which direction this article is intended to take. - Sitush (talk) 09:43, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

To clarify the above question 'which direction is this article intended to take'

--> Ans: This article will talk about the Surname or family name KAUL, its origins, current usage, geographical distribution of the people who use Kaul as their surname. It would also describe the etymology for the name Kaul, its origins and social status /position in Indian society.
--> While talking about its origins and reference in Indian history & Mythology, also intend to indicate about the Kaul surname branching out into several other surnames (like Nehru's, Razdan's etc) & explain how this happened. Hopefully, it will help a lot of people link and associate their ancestory.
--> It would then list some notable kauls briefly describing their social contributions and noteworthy achievements.
Offcourse, the article may later expand to explain the migration of Kauls, a more indepth analysis can follow - hoping that a lot of it will come from other editors.
What say you ? Ambar 12:29, 13 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

No, sorry. We seem to be going round in circles here. You cannot possibly link the surname --> etymology --> social status --> Indian society without from the outset also covering other possible uses of the surname and its near equivalents. To do justice to that breadth of coverage you would need reliable sources that I strongly suspect do not exist. The article would lack balance unless you approach it in this way. If you can find suitable sources etc then great, but you are looking at one heck of a project and I pretty much guarantee you that there will not be many other editors contributing. - Sitush (talk) 12:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Offcourse, I agree that I will not be able to provide reliable sources for everything at once, however have adequate reliable resources to start with the following two

--> Surname & its use in Kashmir (Raj Kaul, have some more sources to cite)
--> etymology for the Kashmiri Kaul surname (from Kula word of Sanskrit)
--> List of notable kauls
& till such time that someone adds another possible usage, I think its fair to assume in good faith that the information uploaded is accurate as long as its supported with sources and citations.
If you feel that using or removing any of the above would make it less objectionable, then let me know. I think I am missing some point here, & examples of certain surname pages would help me understand. I saw the Nair page (based on your earlier messege, and that also does not cover all possible meanings of the Nair surname, but the majority of them. Anyways, don't was to start comparing but use them as reference to understand what would be a good start. Ambar 13:33, 13 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

You mean well, and I realise that. Somehow I am not getting the message across and it is my fault. As an example, you refer to List of Nairs but that is specifically intended to be a list of people who are members of the Nair community. There are no Scots Nairs mentioned, for example, because the list is narrowly defined to be just those people who have (if living) self-identified as being members of the Nair caste that is found predominantly in south India.

Having an article about a surname is far from being narrowly defined. Sure, there are some articles here that are merely about surnames but I do feel that they need to be balanced in their coverage and in the vast majority of cases that I have seen this does not appear to be the happening. I suspect that the main reason why it does not happen is because they are created by people such as yourself, who really only intend to use an article as a coatrack for one particular purpose. In this instance, I think that the underlying intention is to enable you to list various Kauls whom you cannot reliably source as being members of a specific community with other Kauls whom you can reliably source. It is a well-intentioned but fundamentally unsound methodology and there is no doubt in my mind that if certain other people proposed it then I would be telling them outright that they were trying to manipulate Wikipedia in order to puff up their caste etc. In your case, I just think that I am not getting my point across very well. - Sitush (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I understand your concern much better now. To clarify, my intention is to make adequate information available on Wiki (through reliable sources offcourse), about the Kaul Surname or Kram in India (most likely originating in Kashmir). The list of Kauls is only to substantiate the description of Kauls. [Your point well taken and agree that it would be difficult to manage documents that trace the lineage or origin of all the Kauls that I listed to the Kashmiri Kauls, even though there would be enough evidence on the net, its not readily available with me right now].

So, suggest the following - I create the Kaul article & mention

Kaul

a. Kaul (Koul or Kol) refers to a Surname of Kashmiri Pandits, who lived & continue to live in the area of Kashmir & India.
(For reference on Kaul as a Kashmiri Pandit surname, I provide the following reference - People of India: Delhi by Kumar Suresh Singh, Anthropological survey of India.
http://books.google.co.th/books?ei=KKQfTZmKE8r_nAfutITpDQ&ct=result&id=0BFuAAAAMAAJ&dq=surname+Dhar+Kashmiri&q=kaul )
The Kaul surname is also found in Germany, and may or may not be related to the Kauls of Kashmir (I'm just trying to make the article more neutral & less offensive to Kauls from Germany, & they may add their content here later & / or ask for a seperate page)
b. Kashmiri Kauls trace their lineage to Dattatreya Gotra. (Reference to Lawrence)
=== Etymology ===
c. The name Kaul, meaning well born, may have been derived from Kula the Sanskrit term for Family or Clan.

Notable Kauls

d. According to Jawaharlal Nehru, this oldest recorded ancestor Raj Kaul was also a Kashmiri Pandit. Nehru states ... (& then provide a few quotes from his autobiography)
Ambar 15:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC) For the list of Kauls - provide references of only those Kauls only those who can be traced to Kaul surname of Kashmir through reliable references (Self Identification).

Jawahar Lal Nehru - Self Identified as Kashmiri Kaul

Prithvi Nath Kaul Bamzai - Self Identified as Kashmiri Kaul

Kailas Nath Kaul - Self Identified as Kashmiri Kaul

Mani Kaul - Not self Identified, however Media records indicate him to belong to Kashmiri Kaul family. (Kindly refer link http://ibnlive.in.com/news/noted-filmmaker-mani-kaul-dead/165336-8-66.html for sources on his Kashmiri Kaul origins)

Hope I am getting closer to the point (If not completely having understood it).

Ambar 15:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

-- Another request / Feedback --

Since you are telling me what is 'not correct', I try and modify the article based on my understanding. However, if you perhaps tell me how to modify the above content to make it more suitable from Coattrack & Neutrality (& other wiki criteria), then it would help me move forward with a better understanding (maybe). So, I know its not fair to ask this, but can you specifically edit the above content & show me as an example of how it can be improved - for example, remove content from the above 'Kaul Article' which you feel is innappropriate, & leave the content which meets wiki criteria. Ambar 15:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I just read on the IBN News website that Mahesh Kaul was the uncle of Mani Kaul, so can that be considered a reliable source to ascertain that Mahesh Kaul also belonged to a Kashmiri Kaul family. Can I refer to the same website as its a natural deduction
Ambar 15:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

As suggested by you, I can narrowly define the list of notable Kauls as "to be just those people who have (if living) self-identified as being members of the Kashmiri Pandit community & with Kaul Surname that is found predominantly in North India." Kindly let me have you feedback on this and other issues highlighted above.
Also, can you respond on your opinion of Parvez Dewan. You mentioned earlier that you would be doing some findings before responding, so do let me know your feedback. I plan to quote from his book as well.
Ambar 07:52, 14 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambar wiki (talk • contribs)

New draft by Ambar wiki

Ambar wiki has proposed a draft replacement for the current article. This can be seen at User:Ambar wiki/sandbox - it was posted here but I reverted that post because slipping entire articles into talk space is not really a great idea. - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, .. all are invited to view the Kaul article draft, & if you leave comments in my Sandbox talk page, I might just leave you a barnstar. >>Ambar (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Kaul as a Kashmiri Pandit surname

These are some links that indicate Kaul to be a Kashmiri Pandit surname. Check out Kauls and also the book Pg 04 to find some links to the Kashmiri Pandits names. -Ambar (talk) 16:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

German surname

Apparently, Kaul is also a German surname with a different origin than the Indian surname. See de:Kaul.

Notable people with (very probably) the German surname and existing Wikipedia articles include:

• Hans-Peter Kaul
• Inge Kaul
• Matthias Kaul (already listed in the article)
• Niklas Kaul
• Oliver Kaul
• Oskar Kaul

--136.8.33.74 (talk) 12:04, 28 May 2021 (UTC)