Talk:Khalwa (school)

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Evrik (talk) 00:35, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Khalwa pupils in Mauritania
Khalwa pupils in Mauritania

Created by FuzzyMagma (talk). Self-nominated at 09:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Khalwa (school); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • I will review this - feel free to chase me if I don't start in next couple of days Chidgk1 (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma: You have used the plural "khalwas": if that is the English plural can we get rid of the Arabic plural in the lead to avoid confusion? Chidgk1 (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chidgk1: made it consistent using Khalawi. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma: So are girls not allowed? If we have a source to say so we probably should.Chidgk1 (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
in some areas they can be allowed, but the Khalwa (and religious education in general) is male oriented. That is why I used "typically". The book I have used as reference deals with this in a succinct way for someone who is looking for more details. I also included some examples for girls only khalwai FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma: Perhaps this article should be merged into Kuttab?
they are different, totally different even compared to Almajiranci. The style, architecture, origin, history, etc. But please go ahead and put that to discussion if you disagree. I might be too close to the topic to not see your point
I cleared most of your tags but I did not get one of your tags, one of your tag Like most houses the khalwa is built of mud, red bricks, stone and wool.[clarification needed], can you please elaborate FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Globally using wool in housebuilding is less common than using wood so I thought wool might be a typo. So the wool holds the mud together or is used for insulation (sometimes in UK wool is used for loft insulation)? I don't find the hook very interesting but changing the hooks to the alleged rapes would be depressing. If you are sure about the wool I will suggest a hook with it. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:58, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chidgk1: wool is mixed with mud as you said. I am saying that based on experience tbh but the source referenced at the end of the sentence mention that.
I inentionally avoided mentioning child abuse in the hook as I am assuming the majority of the English WP have limited information about this side of the world and I do not want this information to be the introduction. The hook may appear simplistic but I think it is the best introduction and hook to such an article but please feel free to suggest alternatives.

@FuzzyMagma: In the lead you mention that Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh) is taught but I did not notice any details in the body of the article. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

just search the page for "fiqh" and you will find the 2nd mention, it is there. FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
added a 2nd reference which contains the word explicity to avoid confusion FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How about

@Chidgk1: nice hook, let's use this then

yes nice pic but we don't say "arabic gum" in English so how about

thanks for letting me know what “you” (we don't say) use for gum in “English”. It’s gum arabic or gum sudani and not just gum in “English” and no need for schools after khalwa.
OK I was wrong - according to the gum arabic article some people do say "arabic gum" but that is a different thing. I don't know gum arabic - I do know the other thing but I did not know anyone called it "arabic gum" Chidgk1 (talk) 08:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK I am happy with ALT4 wording - if you want you can also link gum arabic - please could you add the source - meanwhile I need to do a final check on the article Chidgk1 (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
added FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but I still cannot find Fiqh in the new cite (probably because I cannot speak Arabic) - unless it is easy for you to add the "quote" parameter to a cite maybe it would be best just to remove Fiqh from the body and lead? It seems unlikely to me that anyone could teach jurisprudence to an elementary school age child - if you are sure about it maybe you could add an example of what part of Fiqh is taught at that age? Chidgk1 (talk) 08:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
quote added. if you are sure about it maybe you could add an example of what part of Fiqh is taught at that age? I have an answer but that will surely be WP:OR. I have added another source that although it uses "Sharia studies". There is a third source, page 54 (or 56 on the PDF count) but I will rather added to further reading

Not essential for DYK but if you have any info on how they are coping during the current fighting you could add a sentence to the body of the article. Chidgk1 (talk) 08:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

really great idea. I will wait for the dust (hopefully) to settle and look for some resources, for now I could not find any FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know this has taken a while but I think we are close to the finishing line now - as this is a very interesting article about a subject little known in much of the world I think your time spent on it is well spent Chidgk1 (talk) 08:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time. I found most of your points to be very informative and helpful. Many thanks for taking the time to help with this article. can I ask you to review the image too? FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know much about pics but it seems to me it would look OK on a small screen. I understand more people want pics than DYK can fit in so don't be too disappointed if it is not favoured later in the DYK process Chidgk1 (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps source 1 is not needed as maybe the start time info is in source 2 or 3? Anyway I trust you to sort out that tag. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Approved - thanks for your good work on this

@Chidgk1: can you please use the proper tick so the bot will understand: {{subst:DYKtick}} FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:33, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chidgk1 (talk) 11:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @FuzzyMagma: That picture doesn't appear to be a Creative Commons image. According to the photographer's flickr page: "All pictures in my photostream - copyright ©2006 Ferdinand Reus. All rights reserved." I didn't see the CC license anywhere. Am I missing something? BorgQueen (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @FuzzyMagma: Ah OK. Looks like it was originally CC but he changed his mind. The CC license can't be revoked that way so I suppose we can use the image anyway. BorgQueen (talk) 17:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Down rating to C[edit]

@Chidgk1 I assumed the article is a B (as set by the B criteria) and close to a GA. Please feel free to provide information on how to push the article to B? FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once it has gone through DYK I suggest you nominate it for GA. As GA nominations usually sit in the queue for a few months that will likely give you plenty of time to expand the article. For example perhaps there might be statistics of how many children attend khalwa or studies of how this schooling helps or hinders state schools. What does the Education Ministry think about them? Do all Muslim leaders support them and if not why not? Is there a difference between first-born sons and later sons? Do girls want to attend such schools? Why are the sheiks respected? A few sentences comparing these schools to those in other countries such as Egypt might also be interesting. And perhaps compare with any Christian schools in Sudan or South Sudan. Are boys from such schools more or less likely to become fighters in the current troubles and why? Chidgk1 (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These are really valuable insights. I guess the significance section will expand with these questions. I will also go through the structure of the thesis in the further reading section FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of the word khalwa (school)[edit]

I think, it would be interesting to know the etymology of this word. In some languages (including my native Georgian) the similarly sounding word has a quite different meaning. George Meladze (talk) 04:19, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Khalwa (Arabic: خلوة) - in Arabic - is to be alone with a thing, with it, or to it.
I’m intrigued to be honest to know What is the Georgian word? FuzzyMagma (talk) 06:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Georgian khalva or halva is a kind of confection ("halva" or "halwa" in English). Of course, it is a borrowing so I wanted to find out, whether these two similarly sounding words could be related etymologically. Anyway, the readers of this article could really do with etymology of khalwa (school) - etymology is always interesting, IMO. George Meladze (talk) 08:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will include the etymology in a sentence.
halwa (Arabic:حلوه) is a different word and it means exactly what you said, confection. The “kh خ” and “h ح” or “h هـ) sound and alphabets are distinct in Arabic but in English they are not FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now I see that this is a different word. Thank you. Actually, I did a little etymological research and found that the word meaning confection has Persian/Iranian origin. I think, other users will also find the etymology useful. George Meladze (talk) 10:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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