Talk:Kumbaya

Anonymous comment

Also spelled kum ba yah, cumbayah, kumbayah, and probably a few other ways. If you look in a good songbook you'll find the word helpfully translated as "come by here," with the note that the song is "from Angola, Africa." The "come by here" part I'll buy. But Angola? Someone's doubtin', Lord, for the obvious reason that kumbaya is way too close to English to have a strictly African origin. More likely, I told my assistant Jane, it comes from some African-English pidgin or creole--that is, a combination of languages. (A pidgin is a linguistic makeshift that enables two cultures to communicate for purposes of trade, etc.; a creole is a pidgin that has become a culture's primary language.) Sure enough, when we look into the matter, we find this conjecture is on the money. Someone's grinnin', Lord, kumbaya.

Kumbaya apparently originated with the Gullah, an African-American people living on the Sea Islands and adjacent coastal regions of South Carolina and Georgia. (The best known Sea Island is Hilton Head, the resort area.) Having lived in isolation for hundreds of years, the Gullah speak a dialect that most native speakers of English find unintelligible on first hearing but that turns out to be heavily accented English with other stuff mixed in. The dialect appears in Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle Remus" stories, to give you an idea what it sounds like. In the 1940s the pioneering linguist Lorenzo Turner showed that the Gullah language was actually a creole consisting of English plus a lot of words and constructions from the languages of west Africa, the Gullahs' homeland. Although long scorned as an ignorant caricature of English, Gullah is actually a language of considerable charm, with expressions like (forgive my poor attempt at expressing these phonetically) deh clin, dawn (literally "day clean"); troot mout, truthful person ("truth mouth"), and tebble tappuh, preacher ("table tapper").

And of course there's kumbayah. According to ethnomusicologist Thomas Miller, the song we know began as a Gullah spiritual. Some recordings of it were made in the 1920s, but no doubt it goes back earlier. Published versions began appearing in the 1930s. It's believed an American missionary couple taught the song to the locals in Angola, where its origins were forgotten. The song was then rediscovered in Angola and brought back here in time for the folksinging revival of the 50s and 60s. People might have thought the Gullahs talked funny, but we owe them a vote of thanks. Can you imagine sitting around the campfire singing, "Oh, Lord, come by here"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.85.53.66 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 31 August 2006.

The above appears to be a copyright voliation. See www.straightdope.com/classics/a980911a.html --68.40.58.33 00:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, always put those kind of comments to the talk page, never directly in the article. Thanks! --FordPrefect42 20:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's new info

See [1]. WP accused of being wrong. Research and possibly modify article? Zora 17:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• I saw the same article, and changed the article to include the authorship debate, with a Chicago Tribune source. CalebNoble 04:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyrighted?

The article declares the song to be copyrighted after providing details that logically imply that it is not protected by copyright. The claim should be revised or removed. —SlamDiego 16:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Rating

Kumbayah IS roots music, so importance should be high. Maybe it should be a B class, but it needs a little work. Pustelnik (talk) 02:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Aramaic

I don't think so. I'll give this a month to be documented, or I will delete it. Pustelnik (talk) 02:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

How would you like this "documented"? Neo-Aramaic 101? (Izady (talk) 23:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Izady)

is this an aramiac idiom? were is it used? in the talmud? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.239.42.208 (talk) 23:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the article never claims a connection to Aramaic. Hebrew and Aramaic are about as different as English and Dutch. They're related, but not the same language. Second, the idea that Gullah is a "Hebrew creole" is nonsense. Gullah contains words and grammatical features from several West African languages, but NOT Hebrew. That said, it is possible that the "ya" in "Kumbaya" is meant as a proper name for God. Marcus Garvey and others were trying to establish some sort of Black nationalist notion that African peoples are the modern Israelites around the time that Kumbaya was written. On the other hand, this movement ignored the fact that for centuries, Jews have had a prohibition on pronouncing YHWH, and are no longer even sure how it would be said. Furthermore, from what I know of Gullah, "kum ba ya" would, in fact, be how one says "come here."messor (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the mention of Hebrew is based on speculation, so it would violate WP:OR. I agree that it is plausible, but it needs a solid citation or else it should be deleted. I've left it in for now, but I restored ref 2 to its correct place, since ref 2 doesn't mention Hebrew at all. Walkerma (talk) 01:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Medieval Latin

Doesn't anybody study Latin anymore?

The first conjugation verb BEO, BEARE, BEAVI, BEATUM ("bless" something, transitive) is clearly augmented with the prefix "cum/com" (all around, as in a campfire), so COMBEA, COMBEA, COMBEA is an invocation to bless everyone who is joining in singing (usually sitting around a campfire, possibly around a funeral pyre). If your Classical Latin is a little rusty, it might help to realize the transitive verb "BEO" has a past participle "BEATUS" (sanctified), and is connected to the same Indo-European root that gave rise to BONUS, BONUM, BONA - "good." Then again, this might be Medieval Latin. 216.99.219.16 (talk) 05:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

If its true origins lie in that typical of a funeral dirge from the Middle Ages, the complete verses might have gone:

   1st voice:       Combea tecum   ("Keep my blessings with you" =  "goodbye to you")
   2nd voice:        Combea!

   1st voice:       Combea mecum   ("And share some blessing with me" =  "goodbye from me")
   2nd voice:        Combea!

An arrangement could easily be put together emphasizing a two-part harmony of sorts.

Since there doesn't seem to be very many complex notes or chords, the history of the tune could date all the way back to the chants of the Benedictine Monks, or to some kind of madrigal. 198.177.27.18 (talk) 18:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The attempt to translate Latin to English has resulted in a bastardization of the original Medieval Latin lyrics. 216.99.201.196 (talk) 20:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

This is interesting to me. Was researching the Inquisition in Portugal many years ago. One of the accusations against a woman who was tried was that her and two other women, at the execution of a man who was found guilty of heresy, began singing "audi fletus mei combea". We briefly tried to find a song by that title (I think they spent a couple weeks calling around) but without luck. After reading this comment, I wonder if this would be verses of the song they were singing and not a title. At this point, it's not useful for us as we were researching these about 10 years ago. 71.33.152.113 (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure that Latin is really the most likely language of origin for this phrase? "Kum by ya," as-is, is a Gullah/Krio/Sea Islands Creole phrase which could literally be translated "come by here." Since the song apparently originates among speakers of an English-African creole, wouldn't this explanation make more sense? messor (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

the foregoing...totally stupid idea... latin benedictine monks.. someone dont know their ancient music history. With that said.. let's not forget Lightnin' Hopkins' tune, "Jesus, will you come by here. (Now is the needed time)". Hear it on movie, 'Sounder' (1972). 2600:1700:A760:C10:604E:5D15:5499:78C1 (talk) 17:37, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

"One guy mentions it in the movie 2012"

Please consider expanding on this sentence, giving specific examples, fixing any grammar/mechanics errors, and doing the appropriate references. Thank you.

~Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.197.211.243 (talk) 03:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, someone should try to expand on the derogatory use of "Let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya" - since this is one of the more popular uses of Kumbaya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.140.144.2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Homophony With Other English Dialects

Just an observation: "Kumbaya" can be homophonous with northern English pronunciations of "come by here." Speakers of certain English dialects don't pronounce their Hs (while still saying 'heich' or 'hah-eech' to say the actual letter), as well as their Rs. As an example, people from Hull say "beeyah" for "beer," and say "hee-yah" for "here." In the Cockney accent they say "'orse" for "horse," etc.

"Kumbaya" might be a bastardized spelling "come by here," just like it has been done for other words that African Americans are supposed to have used, such as "massah," "wid," and "hoss" for "master, "with," and "horse" respectively.

Therefore, to me, "Kumbayah" just sounds like "come by here" the way someone whose accent doesn't say Hs or Rs might say it: "come by 'eyah"

There is a Medieval Latin explanation above, but that sounds a little farfetched, seeing as it doesn't make sense that a missionary would teach a song in Latin to anyone, much less a song in Latin mixed with English (my lord?). Perhaps the "combea" happens to be a cognate for the bastardization of "come by here?" A madrigal might not have much complex chords, but the phrasing doesn't seem to that of one.

It makes more sense that "kumbaya" is a deliberate bastardization of "come by here," probably used to belittle its singers (or the singers it's supposed to portray), much like the song "Massa's in de Cold, Cold Ground."KogeJoe (talk) 02:18, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely, but I don't think I or anyone else could prove it 100%. That being said, I think it's the most likely explanation. messor (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Song References?

Are song references of interest for this article? For example the "Mittermeier vs. Guano Babes" nu metal song "kumba yo!". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.121.14 (talk) 10:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Come By Here Kumbaya Transcription of 1926 recording.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Obama/Netanyahu

I know people referring to the song in a mocking fashion isn't a new phenomenon, but should I actually include the latest example, or is it not notable enough? I was thinking of putting in the below:

• On March 24, 2015, Barack Obama said at a White House press conference that his differences with Benjamin Netanyahu were not personality conflicts, but a "very clear, substantive" disagreement on the approach to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; "So this can't be reduced to somehow a matter of let's all hold hands and sing 'Kumbaya.'"

HoboMcJoe (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

References

references in politics, etc

Seems like the "references in..." sections are just miscellaneous trivia masquerading as useful information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Trivia_sections

also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Avoid_trivia

184.186.80.103 (talk) 19:48, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Fourth column of Lyrics section is non-notable, very different, added by one person without discussion

The fourth column of the Lyrics table was added in one day, first by an anonymous IP address, reverted, then by a user that only ever did that one edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Boergelau

This seems to be a non-notable version of the song, only referenced by a YouTube video that plays a version of the song by singer Helmut Lotti, with lyrics apparently added by him.

I propose deleting this column, and will do so if nobody objects. Whesse (talk) 09:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with you, User:Whesse. And what about the 1973 modern hymn lyrics that follow? Is it a notable bit of information about the traditional song that someone wrote entirely new modern lyrics to fit the original tune? PDGPA (talk) 13:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)