Talk:Kyokushin/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Logo

Doesn't kyokushin have a logo? Shouldn't it be here? When I was a kyokushin-karate-ka we had the calligraphy on our gi but the logo on our bumper sticker/newsletter/IKO membership certificate. It is an abstract representation of two hands joined together (from some high-level kata) --Taejo 21:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You mean the kanku sign 81.11.221.63 09:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The kanku-sign and the calligraphie for the word "kyokushin"?

Oyama killed in self defence?

Oyama killed people in self defence - really? And if so, it does not have much to do with the effectiveness of the style. I find the text just a tiny bit biassed. Habj 17:57, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No one-hit-kill punch

There is no one hit-one kill punch! This refers to the fighting method and strategy and not to a specific technique. Ending a fight with a single strike is desired in most martial arts, not necessarily killing the opponent. For that matter, killing someone with a single strike is something anyone can do (think neck), a martial artist just has more options and can do it easier. It has nothing to do with skill, unless it is achieved by rapturing one's liver with a 3-inch punch in the middle of a fight or something similar. Fighting a huge animal (even if it is drugged, as is claimed by some) and killing it or breaking its horns with your bare hands is a demonstration of courage and skill. --62.254.128.4 03:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's actually just a poor translation of a difficult phrase to put into English. "Ichigeki Hissatsu" literally means "One blow, certain death". It is a common phrase in Japanese martial arts with wide connotation.

Response to the above critism

For the self Defense, and the one hit, one kill punch. Oyama has killed several people with his bare hands, and has killed bulls with the, one hit one kill punch. Proved beyond reasonable doubt this martial art can teach you how to kill people, and is effective in combat. It showed Oyama bptj survived, and Oyama has successfully used this legendary punch. It's not easy, as most regular people will break their hands attempting such a dangerious manuever, it is not recommanded most people try it. For historical purposes, this manuever has been associated with Oyama. As well as other moves Oyama has demonstrated his skill in such as, chopping off the tops off beer bottles, and breaking ice. --Masssiveego 05:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

the dude killed bears and bulls with his hands. you do that without training and then come back and say the art is ineffective.

This is totally untrue. Oyama killed ONE person, in self defence. Otherwise he killed NO ONE. He DID, however, have a helluva punch, which he used affectively throughout his life. IndependenceFreedom

Citizenship

I thought this guys citizenship was Korean and he lived in Japan. So he is not a Korean-Japanese. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:14, 12 June 2005.

He was naturalized as a Japanese citizen. Feigenbaum 07:00, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How was he naturalized as a citizen, when citizenship in Japan up to past the time of his death was still based on heritage not where you lived or even where you were born. There are Koreans today that still can't get citizenship in Japan eventhough they were born in Japan and have never set foot in Korea. Did Japan make an exception for him cause he was such a Champion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 24 June 2005.

You are wrong. More than 200 thousand ethnic Koreans have naturalized. He was one of them. Feigenbaum 03:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The citizenship law was changed only after the mid 1980s, I thought he died in the 1990s. He couldn't have been a citizen in the 1960s or 70s or half way in to the 80s. Did they change the law for him in the 1960s, 70s or mid 80s.4.23.83.100 12:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

He travelled all over the world during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. What kind of passport did he carry with him? -- Toytoy 18:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

He changed name and citizenship in the early sixties, with the assistance of Matsuhei Mori, Member of Japanese Parliament. It was perfectly possible and not uncommon for Koreans to take Japanese citizenship. What IS NOT possible is DUAL citizenship. That is illegal in both Japan and South Korea. He traveled on a Japanese passport exclusively. IndependenceFreedom

Cyberdojo

I see that 137.132.3.11 made quite a large contribution, but what is "Cyberdojo home page" doing in there? MarSch 15:45, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Logo(2)

Logo seems to be there now, however the subscript isn't completely visible. Intinn 09:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement

It appears that some have been working on this article recently to try and improve it, but it appears to need some more work. I'll work on it myself, but I'll offer some suggestions here of what the article could probably use if others would like to help-out:

A short bio of its founder (Mas Oyama) under a "history" heading with a link to the Mas Oyama full entry plus more history of the style from its founding to the present day
More info on the technique of Kyokushin and influences from other styles
More on the "full-contact" aspect of the style since this is such an important part of Kyokushin and its influence on other full-contact styles, also, the role of full contact kumite in Kyokushin training and belt/grade testing
Info on the role and history of competition, challenges, and tournament participation in Kyokushin culture
Perhaps a list of major Kyokushin tournaments? (All-Japan, All-World, America's Cup, etc.)
Discussion of the 100-man kumite
Mention of notable Kyokushin practitioners and how many of them have started their own styles or become notable competitors in MMA organizations
Interaction of early Kyokushin students/instructors with other styles such as Muay Thai, "Kung Fu," Judo, etc
More on the succession controversy that has fractured Kyokushin into so many different organizations within Japan and around the world
Issues between Kyokushin, other karate organizations, and the International Olympic Committee over the inclusion of karate as an event in the Olympics
Some pictures of Kyokushin practioners engaged in competition and/or training
Kyokushin's portrayal in popular culture or in the media (Japanese manga, any movies that use Kyokushin fighters or techniques, the documentary "Fighting Black Kings," etc.)
Efforts by the "Kyokushin Union" to persuade Kyokushin dojo to leave the different IKO organizations and form a looser organization of more independent dojo

Kyokushin is such a major force (my POV, of course) in the karate and martial arts environment, that I think its entry should be larger and more detailed than it currently is, since Wikipedia is the de facto Internet encyclopedia. Check out the entries for Judo, TaeKwanDo, Hapkido, or Muay Thai to see good examples of entries on martial arts styles. cla68, 24 Mar 06

AGREED. This page needs lots of work and is currently too garbled with information unnecessary and not orderly. I suggest cleaning up the links section and adding more graphics/images to help with the verbiage clutter.

____________

May I humbly suggest that before any changes are made and unfounded rumors or anecdotes posted about Mas Oyama that his daughter be contacted first. You can contact her through the Tokyo Honbu +81 3 3988 0748 or her email kuristinao@yahoo.com. General discussion about Kyokushin is good of course, but matters concerning legalities, IP, Mas Oyama or any other potentially sensitive issue should be passed by her I believe. IndependenceFreedom

Oh really?

Sorry, but I really doubt this style has practitioners in the numbers that are wildly speculated on in the article. I've never even heard of the style before today, which suggests to me that the "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" is way off.

Yeah, I also have issues with the neutrality of the article. It is very clear from reading that the author was not only a practitioner but was of the opinion that Kyokushin is superior to other styles. 207.161.43.160 01:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Matt

If you count the number of practitioners claimed by all the organizations with "Kyokushin" in their name, plus all of the "offshoot" organizations, it probably is in the hundreds of thousands. I myself doubt the "millions" number, unless it includes everyone in the world who has ever practiced full contact karate, even if just for a short time, since 1954. This article doesn't receive edits or inputs very often. What it has now has been added little by little over about two years time by what appears to be many different editors. Some of them do better than others at writing in NPOV. If you see something wrong, please correct it. The article could really use more input. Cla68 17:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

__________

Talk of millions is due to the Tokyo Honbu records always including ALL members who ever joined. That easily capped twelve million over the last 50 years. The current numbers would be more like 100,000. It is nothing like it used to be. IndependenceFreedom

Kata

I have added a list of the northern katas, is it appropriate to make them dead links for now in the hope that someone will fill in instructions on the katas later?

--24.195.60.53 13:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia community contributors don't like dead links in articles, but I don't think it's a big deal unless the article is being submitted for "featured article" status. It's great to see people contributing to and improving this article as time goes by. Cla68 15:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the ura kata should be described. They involve turning backward any time stepping in. It doesn't seem that they should get their own page, but I don't know if they are unique to Kyokushin. I am adding a description of ura kata and those explicitly listed plain text instead of links. if it would be more appropriate to add an Ura Kata page, and make these piped links. Pohart 02:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Mas Oyama vs his original Korean name

There's a certain Wikipedia contributor who appears dedicated to reminding everyone that Mas Oyama is a Korean by birth. The thing that he (or she) needs to remember, is that Mas lived most of his life in Japan, speaking the Japanese language, leading a Japanese organization with more than 90% Japanese members, and passed-away in Japan at the end of his life. His life and his karate style is a Japanese story, whether everyone accepts it or not. It's appropriate to mention that Mas Oyama was born in Korea with a Korean name originally. However, it's just as appropriate to write about his life as a member of Japanese society, which means using his Japanese name and nationality as his primary identifier. As far as I know, Mas Oyama went to his deathbed (in Japan) speaking Japanese to his Japanese disciples without repudiating his Japanese heritage and history. Revisionist or POV history does both his legacy, and his follower's legacy a disservice, and, in my opinion is both arrogant, myopic, juvenile, and inappropriate. If you don't agree, please state your case here and please sign-off with a user name instead of an anonymous IP address. Any questions? Cla68 04:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sosai Mas Oyama was also a naturalized Japanese citizen. Sakeshotz 11:40, 14 March 2007 (PST)

Gichin Funokoshi never taught Okinawan Karate. It was Chojun Miyagi that first assembled this style. Funokshi established the Shotokan Karate.

Yes, but Shotokan is originally Okinawan, just check the article. (Claudio Shodan 13:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

________________________

There is nothing wrong with mentioning Oyama's Korean birth. He DID choose Japanese citizenship and live his life in Japan, but he was born in Korea. He was proud of that heritage too. It is no big issue, so don't make it one. IndependenceFreedom

Bobby Lowe?

You placed Bobby Lowe under "Notable Kyokushin practitioners (former or current)"? He died long before the establishment of Mas Oyama's career! -- Toytoy 18:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This link was incorrectly pointing at Bobby Lowe, the baseball player. There is another Bobby Lowe in Hawaii that is a Shihan within the Kyokushin IKO1 organization. Someone has made the correction to the link to a new page for Shihan Bobby Lowe. -- Sakeshotz 13:21 August 2006

Sparring (Kumite)

Over the time Kyokushin sparring rules have evolved becoming less dangerous for the participants but also distanced from "anything goes" competitions like modern MMA or even Muay Thai. Principle of staying "as close to real life fight as possible" was interpreted as sparing with full force while wearing no protection (no gloves or body armor). The fighters must condition entire body in order to withstand kicks and punches, at the same time elaborating even more powerful kicks and punches to defeat the opponent. The Kyokushin fighters achieve impressive striking power: i.e., Hiroki Kurosawa have demonstrated a 1.420 kg strong kick (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_speed.htm) and Franz Rasmussen was reportedly able to rip 4 bottlenecks with a single strike (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_tam.htm). Opponents need to be able to withstand impact of such force in order to survive the full-contact fight.

At the same time, the "wearing no protections" requirement rules out punch to the face (or neck) in the sport events like kumite competitions. Some prominent Kyokushin fighters insist additional boxing or kickboxing training is a must for Kyokushin practitioners (interview with Elena Vorobyeva, http://superkarate.ru/inter/inter_vorobyeva.htm).

These guidelines define Kyokushin fight. The opponents typically (but not always) fight in close distance, as there is no need to defend from head punches. "Clean" or "well-performed" techniques are not rewarded in any way; only way to assure victory is to actually knock down the opponent. The punches are usually short and quick, kicks are often low-kicks; elbows and knees are also used. Opponents try to fight with full power, using combinations of 2-3 elements (punch-punch-kick, kick-punch-punch or similar). Fights are physically exhausting, therefore experienced fighters tend to spare energy for later stages of the fight, hoping to defeat emaciated opponent.

In general, Kyokushin rules allow relatively "safe" full-contact sparing, minimizing possibility of head trauma. Critics usually argue that Kyokushin training develops wrong fighting skills - too little attention to head defense, too much focus on defending torso area, inappropriate fighting distance, undeveloped head punch skills. Proponents usually point out that experienced fighters after some boxing training are able to successfully participate in K1 and similar championships, and minimized head trauma attracts people who don’t want full contact fight but not permanent brain damage.

Category for Kyokushin Offshoots

Creating a category for Kyokushin Offshoots (Daido Juku, Seido Kaikan, Shidokan, etc.) would be a good idea. Hermeneus (user/talk) 07:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Images

This article could really use more images. If anyone who visits this article has some pictures of Kyokushin students training or participating in a tournament, please consider uploading and adding them to the article. If it's a picture that you took, then you can freely upload it. If it's a picture from your school or association's website, then you need to get clear permssion from your organization to upload it. If you're not greatly experienced with how the image policy and technical process works for Wikipedia, leave me a note on my talk page or here and I'll help you out. Cla68 01:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

How does one post images here? I have plenty of good ones. IndependenceFreedom

Contribution

Kyokushinkai karate Mas Oyama style must has developed over the year.Front facing,closed distance,stand up,semi-round house kick,dont pull back punches,low kicks and a lot of knees looks more Muaythai than typical Karate.He did go to Thailand,did not he? 1950's? Please give note.--203.113.34.11 19:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kyokushinkai.gif

Image:Kyokushinkai.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Belt colors

Are the obi colors here right? With us every karate-club has this order:

10th Kyu: orange belt
9th Kyu: orange belt with stripe
8th Kyu: blue belt
7th Kyu: blue belt with stripe
6th Kyu: yellow belt
5th Kyu: yellow belt with stripe
4th Kyu: green belt
3rd Kyu: green belt with stripe
2nd Kyu: brown belt
1st Kyu: brown belt with stripe
1st Dan: black belt
+one golden stripe for every dan

I think you can rely on these colours, since the shihans Beltran, Tabata and Shichinohe use the same ones.

Inaccuracies

Kyokushin is not a contact sport in most countries. It seems to have become one in the US but that's visibly typical of the US where the spiritual aspects of the training are almost completely lost.

31/07/2015 - I disagree with this comment above. The founder of the style Oyama encouraged the full contact apect of this style, and encouraged all students to partake in full contact training.

As a student of kyokushin in the UK, and having met students from all around the world, I can say that most of the people I know from various different countries all know that Kyokushin is a style of full contact karate (without face blows) and the training will be physical and hard accordingly. This is why most students of Kyokushin have chosen this particular style. 82.10.39.127 (talk) 14:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

---In some countries is practiced as "limited contact". Full-power hits are alowed only in the body (stomach, chest, shoulders, legs), but no attack hand to head is allowed. No open hand attacks are practiced. The reason is, because this is a friendly sporty exercise, and we (and our friends too) do not want to end up in hospital. However, severe blows in the stomach provide sufficient feed back to the practicioners to build confidence and prepare them for actual situations. nt

Kyokushin Karate and Shotokan Karate have evolved into very different styles,though both originated from Okinawa they took divergent routes to achieve their differing goals. Kyokushin Karate was hugely influenced by its participation in the famous challenge issued by Muay Thai as to which was the the superior art gaining a famous (if questionable victory see Tadashi Nakamuras 'Human face of Karate')the prevalence of Kyokushins signature kick probably originated here. Mas Oyama was Korean he has studied Korean, Chinese, Japanese martial arts. He included all his knowledge to form his " Idea" of Karate but fundamentally he fitted it all into what he felt was good of the existing Goju and Shotokan styles.

This page contains a number of inaccuracies, as does the discussion below.

Kyokushin was one of the largest styles of karate before the death of Oyama. Following his death there was a significant break-up of the organisation.

Oyama, contrary to folklore repeated here, did not kill any bulls or bears for that matter. He was an outstanding martial arts practitioner who did establish a very vital and popular style. However, like most big organisations, it has fallen afoul of human weaknesses and the perils of associated with the martial arts.

Senior practitioners of the style have been repeatedly rumoured to be linked closely to organized crime (though this is not unusual for many martial arts styles): the yakuza in Japan, organizatziya in Russia and equivalents in other countries. However, this is impossible to verify.

Accordingly, there is considerable mystery or misinformation regarding the style.

The problems may relate from practitioners from various subgroupings of Kyokushinkai volunteering different information.

213.212.1.52 14:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

A so desku ka. As long as you have good references for your information, please feel free to add your views to the article. Cla68 17:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

conclusion drawn?

This opening statement:

A very practical method of self defense, Kyokushin is deeply rooted in the philosophies of self-improvement, discipline and hard training.

The front part A very practical method of self defense, is drawing a conclusion rather than putting forth a citable reference of information. Especially since the word 'very' is put in for emphasis. It is inappropriate for wikipedia articles.

It should be ammendedRCHM 01:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Very true, edited, better? --Nate1481(^t/_c) 09:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

KYOKUSHIN TODAY

I've removed a section in "Kyokushin Today" for the simple reason that this could be argued vehemently by many of the broken Kyokushin organizations. The previous writer, definitively from IKO1 gave his personal and biased opinion on the matter with his own reflection which is not a Wikipedia way of informing the reader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.89.230 (talk) 14:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this section:

"One of these self-proclaimed successors, a young and skilled student of Oyama's named Akiyoshi Matsui, claimed that he personally owned the intellectual rights to all Kyokushin trademarks, symbols, and even the name Kyokushin. However, the Japanese legal system subsequently ruled against Matsui in this matter (as he had nothing at all to prove his false claim), returning the ownership of Oyama's intellectual property to his family. To this day, Matsui and his followers continue to claim he is the successor although this claim is backed by nothing but the hearsay of a handful of (coincidentally) Matsui's business partners and followers. The future of the organization following Matsui is in jeopardy, however, as Matsui has relinquished his Japanese citizenship in favour of US citizenship and now resides full time in New York where he no longer practices Kyokushin Karate. He returns to Japan from time to time."

Reason being that this is unimportant to single out Matsui as to other organization claiming to be the rightful heir of Kyokushin. One could accuse Midori, Matsushima, Royama etc... to name a few. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.129.38 (talk) 03:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I removed the following:

"Various other organizations have stemmed from Kyokushin and teach similar techniques but go by different names. For example, in 1976, ten years after having been sent to the USA by Oyama to teach Kyokushin Karate, one of Oyama's top students Tadashi Nakamura founded Seido karate in the United States. Like Kyokushin, Seido students greet each other and acknowledge instructions by saying "Osu". Unlike it, Seido does not place a strong emphasis on full contact and students do not spar at all until reaching at least 6th kyu. Also, numerous dojos throughout the world claim to teach a Kyokushin curriculum without formal connection to the organization."

First, it is redundant to point again that other organization use the name Kyokushin. "Osu" is not only common in Kyokushin but in other Japanese martial arts. This page is about Kyokushin. Not about Seido, Kenreikai, ShinKyokushin etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.129.38 (talk) 04:11, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Why do people use Wikipedia as a directory of dojos? This is also totally bias as every dojo and leader named in the comments are from IKO 1. Let's make a very strong point here: Matsui was never the successor of Mas Oyama which explains the rift within the organizations.

I have removed the following:

"The Kyokushin Kaikan branch in Hawaii is managed by its International Committee Chairman, Shihan Bobby Lowe. Its New York branch is managed by its International Committee Office member, Shihan Katsuhito Gorai. Shihan Joe Hamamoto controls its Long Beach, California branch. Branch Chief, Taku Nakasaka, oversees its Los Angeles branch. Brian Bastien manages the Studio City branch, which is also located in California. Leslaw Samitowski operates its branch in Chicago. Its Canada branch chiefs are Shihan Stuart Corrigal, Carl Choo-Yik and Andre Gilbert.

Sosai Mas Oyama's successor, Kancho Shokei Matsui, frequently travels to various tournaments held throughout the world. Its 6th World Open Karate Tournament held in Japan, composed of 168 fighters from all over the world with over 25,000 attendees." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.129.38 (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Dojo affiliation

Would it be permissible if I added some of the various kyokushin factions (dojo affiliations) that exist (ie IKO & IFK)?--Bacturin (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

"Hardness"

Does any other martial arts page have a "hardness" entry in the infobox? I get that we're proud of it, but it seems like an unnecessary addition to the box when a few other items might be missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.60.220 (talk) 11:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

notability

it appears to me that someone from the Kyokushin organization has target karate style that branched off of kyokushin for not meeting notability guidelines. which is pure bs. if the styles branching off from kyokushin doe meet notability standards, then kyokushin does not either. looks like a marketing ploy to me, and wikipedia is not suppose to be a marketing tool, rather an informational tool. shidokan, ahshihara, seido juku and enshin, all breakoffs of kyokushin have been target for deletion because of notability. Pure bs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.171.122 (talk) 15:58, 7 October 2010 (UTC)