Talk:La Libertad Avanza

Use "La Libertad Avanza" as the title of the page for Milei's party, not the broader coalition?

The name seems to appear more frequently in reference to the party than to the coalition. Also, the coalition is more likely to be transitory. Starchild (talk) 05:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Changing "The Liberty Advances" to "Liberty Advances."

"The Liberty Advances" is an awkward wording, the product of Google Translate. In Spanish, using the preposition "el" or "la" is effectively obligatory before nouns, but we do not do the same with "the" in English.

The translation of the party should be "Liberty Advances." BSC-56 (talk) 13:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I coincide "The Liberty Advances" is a literal translation, word by word."Liberty Advances", o"Liberty goes forward", alternatively "Freedom Advances", are clearly better. 161.69.122.20 (talk) 21:59, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I consider "Freedom Goes Forward" as a better translation, and easier to grasp for English speakers.

Check google translate: Google Translate

What do you think? 161.69.53.26 (talk) 23:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Far-right???

At the moment the page lists the party as "far-right". To most readers (and Wikipedia) that term associates with hardline nationalists, of which this party is certainly not the sort in any way. It amounts to defamation. Something has to be done. "Regarding his romantic life [Milei] has suggested in a La Nación interview that he is a champion of free love".

I agree. The name should be changed to libertarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BSC-56 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Isn't modern day far right generally libertarian? The party is in favor of free sale of organs, which, as far as I know, only currently exists in Iran. This seems to be extremist in my view. --Qayqran (talk) 17:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

It's facetious to pretend that organ sale is a major component of LLA's platform. And no, there is no substance to the unsourced claim that the "modern day far right is generally libertarian." I'll be changing it. BSC-56 (talk) 15:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

What he meant is that far-right is now everything thats not socialism. At least this seems to be the way the term is used. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 09:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Qayqran: You are the extremist. It's about FREEDOM. This is "extreme" LIBERAL view on cultural issues. If there is something in what Iran is the only free country in the world, we should congratulate Iran on THAT point and say that in that particular matter Iran is the only LIBERAL country in the world, no matter that it is Iran, which is usually extremely conservative and anti-freedom. It's totally insane to call organ market "conservative" because of Iran. --95.24.67.175 (talk) 14:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

if you want to argue about libertarian being far right wing or not, this is not the place. You can go on their respective articles. FYI, Just a quick Google search shows that it's Not. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/49654/is-libertarianism-left-wing-or-right-wing 2A00:23EE:18F0:6EB7:621C:4738:656B:62CE (talk) 17:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"Far-right" is abundantly sourced. — Czello 16:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

libertarian is also abundantly sourced, yet it's not there. Then also libertarian is not far right. This is not the place to argue if they are related, you can fill your curiosity here https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/49654/is-libertarianism-left-wing-or-right-wing 2A00:23EE:18F0:6EB7:621C:4738:656B:62CE (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree with this post – libertarian is not "far right". And libertarian is abundantly sourced. Starchild (talk) 05:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Just like the fascists far-right label reflects their extremist right-wing views on social issues, authoritarianism, and extremist nationalism (economically, they range from centrism to right-wing depending of the context and scholars have characterized as pragmatic), for radical right-wing libertarians (whom scholars have found similar to right-wing populists who are categorized on the radical right), the far-right label is used to reflect their extremist right-wing views on economics. They aren't far-right because they're authoritarian (though one many wonder whether their anti-leftism isn't a sign of democratic backsliding and authoritarianism...) or racists, but because they're extremist on economic issues, such as privatizing everything (not even neoliberals and Milton Frieadman advocated that) and abolishing the state, which by all measures are radical or extremist views. Once one realizes that far-left and far-right includes both left-wing and right-wing libertarians and authoritarians, and that they are categorized due to a shared extremism or radicalism, the arguments fall. Anyway, I've added their self-description; it is from an opinion piece (it is quoting their self-description and we do not use it to reflect the author's personal disagreement with the far-right label, so it should be fine) but at least it is a secondary source and we aren't citing their personal website. I hope that will calm you down and avoid vandalism, such as removal of the well-sources far-right label (as noted by Czello), and I'd support keeping it if that will avert further vandalism. Davide King (talk) 03:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Logo La Libertad Avanza.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

???

Can someone name at least one culturally conervative stance of this party? This party is described as absolutely culturally liberal. I see that the Libertarian Party of Argentina doesn't have its' own page in English Wikipedia. It redirects here. --95.24.60.75 (talk) 03:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth (WP:TRUTH), so reliable sources may well be wrong but once one understands that Wikipedia is merely summarizing what they are reporting, and that we're not stating as fact they are far right but that they have been described as such by a significant number of reliable sources, including ones that you may personally not consider reliable (you have the right to appeal this at WP:RSP), they'll avoid sleep losses by discussing this time and time again. Anyway, they certainly are not liberal when it comes to abortion, at least in the case of Milei, who is their leader and presidential candidate, so that is at least one culturally conservative stance. But as I said, my personally opinions do not matter. Davide King (talk) 02:56, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Abortion is pretty much the only non liberal issue. But sources are on the remaining issues are bad. Justfrankreyes (talk) 20:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What makes a source reliable is how closely its statements correspond to reality. When a source gets something wrong, this undermines its claim to reliability. Starchild (talk) 05:51, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

left-wing smear terms such as "far-right" or "ultraconservative" should not be used

They are left-wing propaganda terms and hardly objective. 62.226.85.197 (talk) 20:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree, I cant find a source in Argentina calling them "far-right" only American media. rando 22:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I must have missed the part where elDiarioAR.com and Agence France-Presse, among many others, suddenly became American media organizations...

Also, once one realizes far-left and far-right do not mean only Stalinists and neo-Nazis but also left-wing libertarians, such as anarchists and libertarian socialists (on the far left), and right-wing libertarians, the argument ends. The correct characterization in this case is of radical right, which scholars categorizes as a subset of the far right that does not oppose democracy; however, we only have Radical right (Europe) and Radical right (United States), so we are forced to wikilink to Far-right politics, which remains an appropriate wikilink as radical right is considered a subset of the former.

It is a centrist bias to say that the more one goes to the left or right, the more authoritarianism is found because in such cases the political compass is useful in noting that there are authoritarian and libertarian versions of both the left and right. Both left-wing and right-wing libertarians are not considered extremists because they're authoritarians or racists but because they hold extremely radical positions, such as abolishing the state or privatizing everything. I hope that this will clear the issue. Remember that Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth (WP:TRUTH).

Once one understands this, they'll avoid sleep losses by writing endless messages complaining about it and the way Wikipedia operates. Davide King (talk) 02:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

In Argentina, Far-right are those supporters of military dictatorships. Libertarians do not. Please keep the article neutral. Justfrankreyes (talk) 20:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

If you look at the Nolan Chart, you'll be able to see very quickly how the whole representation of politics as a line from left to right, in which organizations must be either left-wing, right-wing, or centrist, is mistaken. Libertarianism is a separate ideology that is neither left-wing nor right-wing. Different libertarian groups and individuals with libertarian beliefs may, of course, lean left or right, just as left-wing and right-wing groups or individuals with those beliefs may lean either libertarian or authoritarian, but this doesn't change the fact that libertarianism as an ideology does not fall on the left-right spectrum. Nor does authoritarianism, for that matter. Authoritarian tendencies can be found on both the right and the left, and in its extreme forms, the left vs right aspect ceases to have much distinction (comparing e.g. Stalin, a nominally far left authoritarian, and Hitler, a nominally far right authoritarian, they actually had more in common as authoritarians than differentiated them). Starchild (talk) 05:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, would you consider "far-left" as a right-wing smear term? If so, I'd respect your consistency. Davide King (talk) 03:00, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Wtf

Was this page written by a peronist?! Milei is a right-wing populist sure, not a cuddle-bunny sure, but this page reads like literal Frente de Todos propaganda. 2A02:8108:1640:5282:7D38:C805:60A9:8DAA (talk) 17:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the correct characterization in this case is of radical right, which scholars categorizes as a subset of the far right that does not oppose democracy, and that is the most used characterization by scholars to describe right-wing parties and politicians, as you concede that Milei can be considered one of them. Unfortunately, we only have Radical right (Europe) and Radical right (United States), so we are forced to wikilink to Far-right politics, which remains an appropriate wikilink as radical right is considered a subset of the former. Davide King (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality

The article is non-neutral. Genfilf (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

In Argentina, Far-right, Conservatives and Ultraconservatices are those who support Military dictatorships, for example National Reorganization Process. Justfrankreyes (talk) 20:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Question

The political position section consists of solely "far-right", previously including "right-wing to far-right". What is the rationale for this removal? It seems especially hard to negate the "right-wing" label, as many far-right parties are described as right-wing (far-right being a subsection of the right). Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the only possible rationale for the removal, negating the many sources that use just "right-wing", would be to have something along the lines of "La Libertad Avanza is a far-right but not right-wing party"... I.e., how do you negate "right-wing" when it is used alongside (but not in opposition to) the term "far-right"? Zilch-nada (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I dislike the usage of "Right-wing to far-right", "Centre to centre-left" et similia. We should list only one, and if sources disagree so much, then we do not put it and explain this in the lead. I would be fine either with "Right-wing" or "Far-right", perhaps with a note saying they are considered part of the radical right that does not oppose democracy, which is used for radical right-wing populist parties in Europe but some scholars have also applied for right-wing libertarian parties. As you say, both are technically accurate, as far-right is a subset of the right-wing, and I see no major dispute among reliable sources that this is not a right-wing party. We should have a look if there is any particular preference among reliable sources. Davide King (talk) 01:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Libertarian

CNN says clearly that Milei is libertarian, stop cherry picking sources that justify being far right. https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/08/14/liberal-libertario-javier-milei-en-que-consiste-orix/ 2A00:23EE:18F0:6EB7:621C:4738:656B:62CE (talk) 16:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I've updated the Libertarian ref to better use BBC which goes to the point of answering that question. It also covers the question on whether it's right or left, BCC note clearly says Libertarians reject that position. Justfrankreyes (talk) 19:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is a great source on why Libertarians are NOT right wing. If you're in doubt, please provide respectable sources on why you're claiming that they're, https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/49654/is-libertarianism-left-wing-or-right-wing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23EE:18F0:6EB7:621C:4738:656B:62CE (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

• Due to it not having editorial oversight, please note that stack exchange is generally not considered to be a reliable source. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 17:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  This is not the place to debate if libertarian is right wing. I've not used that reference as source in the article. 2A00:23EE:18F0:6EB7:621C:4738:656B:62CE (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

conservative to ultraconservative tendency: cultural and social aspects

Anybody that actually spent some time reading Libertarian on Wikipedia (and the BBC reference on being Libertarian) should acknowledge that they're clearly not "with a conservative to ultraconservative tendency".

Javier Milei, the Presidential candidate for La Libertad Avanza, wrote a book titled "The Way of the Libertarian".

Libertarians value personal choices, for example for example to have your own choice over your own body. Reading Conservatism begins by saying they "promote and to preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values", but that's clearly a contradiction regarding Libertarians. The same goes with Ultraconservatism.

I'm Argentinian and I understand where those misconceptions come from, but English and Western readers may use a different yardstick to understand what they really mean.

Far-right, Conservative, and Ultraconservative in Argentina were the supporters of military dictatorships, for example National Reorganization Process, and Libertarians are totally against killings and Military dictatorships.

I'm trying to collect references on Cultural and Social aspects, but sources are scarce. Justfrankreyes (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The vice president of LLA shares some positive opinions about the military rule. --2A02:560:5442:9B00:6979:B923:EE5E:D41A (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This is the article about the political party. Joe Biden is Catholic and has some reservations about abortions, yet Democrats are clear about that topic. You can debate specifics on individuals in the Talk page of each individual's article. Justfrankreyes (talk) 23:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Libertarian

This is not the place to debate on whether Libertarian is a political position, or if it's right wing. It's explained in the respective articles. If you have concerns, go to that article. Justfrankreyes (talk) 23:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Removal of sourced content

@Pedantic Aristotle Please stop restoring your preferred version of the article. Your changes to the article were reverted by three separate editors here, here, and here, but you continued to revert to your preferred version. A valid reason for deleting sourced content has not been provided. Please gain consensus for your version here on the talk page before reverting again. gobonobo ^{+ c} 21:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm reverting unsourced content, that appears malicious, that has been added to the article without consensus. So far none of the 3 editors you listed have participated in any discussion on the content. If you believe the content should be added to the article, make a case for it here. There also appears to be a double standard, given how you actively revert improvements in other articles. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 22:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Ultraconservatism and Denialism of State Terrorism in Argentina (1976-1983)

In Argentina, ultraconservatism is associated with the defense of the civil-military dictatorship known as the National Reorganization Process. However, it's important to note that the vice-presidential candidate doesn't endorse the dictatorship. Accusations of denialism arise from her comments, such as questioning the number of victims or mentioning that her parents were veterans of the Falklands War. Between 2010 and 2013, there were interviews between this candidate and the then-incarcerated Rafael Videla, leading to controversy due to the negative perception the society had of her because of that association

In the event that Villarruel or Bussi were denialists, they wouldn't fit into the electoral platform of Liberty Advances alliance. If their ideas diverge from ultraconservatism or the period of national reorganization, they might align with other factions. The media is characterizing this coalition as right-wing libertarian, paleolibertarian, or conservative-libertarian, but none of these descriptions specifically label the alliance as ultraconservative. Dagulalol (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, there is no mention of the coalition in the sources. The relation to Villarruel or Bussi is also questionable, the sources do not support the phrasing of the article, in particular not to the coalition. Discussions on these two people should occur on their articles Talk page.

cc: @Uniru288 Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 15:15, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Just FYI, Uniru288 was permanently blocked 15 hours ago. Yue🌙 06:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Ideology

What’s the difference between ‘libertarian conservatism’ and ‘right-libertarianism’? I would’ve thought the former plus ‘right-wing populism’ would alone suffice, as is paleolibertarianism not a subset of libertarianism conservatism? Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Protect the page

This page (and pages affiliated to this one) has to be protected. The amount of significant edits done on a daily basis is crazy. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 20:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Does Referencing A News Article Prove Any Point? Why It is allowed?

The article repeatedly considers Milei as a far-right, ultraconservative etc. If these terms have some sort of definitions, I believe they do not, you should either reference a party programme, a part of speech of party executives. Referencing conventional news articles, many of whom are not biased, does not prove any claim. It just serves to decieve people who did not examine the references. 85.110.75.152 (talk) 00:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

In defence of slight changes to wording

Given a decently strong consensus here that "far-right" is not the best description, I have substituted it for the slightly softer "hard-right," and also added some due weight to the libertarianism of his ideology. If anyone wants to reverse these changes, I would like to hear your arguments against these. 172.59.200.249 (talk) 03:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Neonazis?

There is a line in the lead that says "It has been criticized for including among its candidates neo-Nazis and apologists for the military dictatorship." The dictatorship part has to go: it has already been mentioned in the previous paragraph. As for the other, having neo-nazi candidates is quite a serious claim, and requires exceptional sources. There are two references, but let's check: the one from Iprofesional is just a vague and generic claim from an opinated book. The other makes it specific, they talk about Rodolfo Barra. But that source itself holds the whole thing in doubt, if you go beyond the title and sub-heading and actually read the page. It says that this because of a sum of minor things and not any really important case, that Milei has personally rejected the support of white supremacists ("Si hay alguien filonazi acercándose a nuestro espacio, le diría que tiene un problema ideológico grave. El liberalismo es el respeto irrestricto del proyecto de vida del prójimo. No tiene nada que hacer un nazi en esta estructura. Está fuera por definición"), that those who made unfortunate comments have already apologized themselves, etc. And Barra... yes, he was outed as a former Nazi back in the 1990s, and Menem removed him from government when that happened, but the story did not end there. The judiciary has aquited him of any relation with the muder of the Jewish Raúl Alterman by Tacuara members: the crime was done with a weapon that belonged to a friend of Barra, but he successfully proved that they were both elsewhere at the moment of the crime, which was done by someone else. And the DAIA ("Delegación de Asociaciones Israelitas Argentinas", a Jewish organization) pointed that Barra has already apologized back in the 1990s, and Benjamin Netanyahu described Milei as "a true friend of the Jewish people". And I might add, is Barra even affiliated to the party to begin with? He was not candidate to anything in the elections, and it is not required to belong to the party of the president to join the cabinet (in a small and quite inconsequential post, now that we're at it).

The alleged relation of La Libertad Avanza with neonazism is only worth of clickbait articles, and nothing more. Cambalachero (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you know the UNITE party? Its leader is José Bonacci, a self-proclaimed fascist who took photos with Hitler's books (he is also considered a Nazi although he denies doing so). the same party, comes from another party that is also neo-fascist and had relations with Alejandro Biondini. Rodolfo Barra is part of the Libertad Danza political coalition. This coalition is not Javier Milei's party. So clearly the coalition has neo-Nazi factions. Lucía Montenegro's advisor is also part of Alejandro Biondini's own party, a party recognized as neo-Nazi. 181.13.73.239 (talk) 23:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

References, please. Cambalachero (talk) 12:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Here there are:

https://www.minutouno.com/politica/victoria-villarruel/quien-es-lucia-montenegro-la-otra-legisladora-detras-del-acto-negacionista-n5812336,

https://www.eldiarioar.com/politica/libertad-avanza-filonazismo-sale-closet_1_10748635.html

https://www.infobae.com/judiciales/2023/07/06/terrorista-vs-nazi-la-insolita-pelea-por-la-foto-del-che-guevara-en-una-de-las-boletas-presidenciales/

https://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20231206/9430196/milei-esvastica-estrella-david.amp.html 186.139.86.69 (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

So, José Bonacci is a nazi because we can see him holding a "Mein Kampf" book on social networks (the 4th photo in the Minutouno article). You have fallen victim to a scam. Have a closer look: where is Bonacci while that photo is being taken? That's a comic book store: we can see comics of Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, etc. And the book he's holding, that's "Mein Kampf Ilustrado", a comic book parody of Hitler's book by Clement Moreau, who actually escaped from Nazi Germany. The book repeats passages of the Mein Kampf book, next to illustrations that mock or make fun of it; Moreau's intention was to show the Mein Kampf as an absurdity. Have in mind that this parody was made in 1940, when Hitler was not the historical boogeyman he is nowadays but an actual and very real threat, and that Moreau also wrote "La Comedia Humana (Nacht über Deutschland)", with the tragic fate of the people living under Hitler's regime. In short, not a nazi book, but quite the opposite. See more details here (and scroll the images, you will see the comic book cover, exactly the one that Bonacci is holding). A source that says that Bonacci is a nazi because of that photo, either failed to make the proper research before publishing something that would harm a person's reputation, or published such misleading half-truths on purpose to confuse people for the benefit of a political agenda. In either case, such a source would not be a really reliable one. Cambalachero (talk) 17:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You are right, it is nota nazi book, although you cannot deny that it is classified as Nazi, not only for that reason. But if you want we can put neofascism, instead of neonazism 2800:2503:8:C19A:1AD2:DB81:263F:C7AA (talk) 14:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)