Talk:Lazar Koliševski

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Why the hell did he lose power[edit]

Also, his successors? 96.50.10.234 (talk) 07:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikified[edit]

Wikified and fixed numerous spelling and grammar mistakes made in the English language. Rlevse 17:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good grief, the article is so biased; I don’t know where to begin…--Cigor 22:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the bias, can someone edit it to NPOV standard, and as far as the roots of Lazar Kolisev check out this: http://site.znain.com/macedonia/pictures-and-docs/requestsfrommacedonianpoliticians.htm

To add to this website. the documents are true, however NO Macedonians during WWII could write to the Bulgarian government as a Macedonian. They had to write under a Bulgarian name.

If one would study Yugoslav/Bulgarian relations between the 1940s - 1980s. one will learn that Kolisevski and the Yugoslav government did nothing but attack the Bulgarian government on Macedonia.

Two funny mistakes have been done in describing the second picture (from LCY congress 1978):

1) Kolisevski is not at the picture. The man described as Kolisevski is in fact Petar Stambolic from Serbia.[[1]]

2) The man described as Dzemal Bijedic cannot be Dzemal Bijedic because this politician had died one year before the congress! [[2]]

Wow, how come this has not been edited earlier? First of where in the world is the source to support the claim in his early years that he changed his surname so as to show his 'anti-Bulgarianess'. And this whole Bulgarian element throughout the article is atrocious, nothing is cohesive and nothing makes sense. EDITED.

Read the external links. Mr. Neutron 02:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence that he ever was or claimed to be Bulgarian. If he was Bulgarian why would he have fought for Macedonia, why not for Bulgaria? He was appointed by Tito to be president of the Republic of Macedonia. At that time there was a lot of fear of Bulgarians, do you really think he would have appointed a Bulgarian to be a diplomat in Yugoslavia. The external links are pictures or do not work.Alexander the great1 15:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whether you like it or not he was born Bulgarian. It is a well recorded fact. What happened to him later and was his choice in life does not wipe away his descent and the national consciousness of his family. --Laveol T 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as "national consciousness of his family". His family was claimed as Bulgarians while Macedonia was under Bulgarian occupation, and as Serbs during the Serbian occupation, also while Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia between the World Wars. Nobody was born as Bulgarian in Sveti Nikole in 1914, but whoever was governing the town during the Balkan Wars and World War 1 was enforcing such "official" documents, that later are being cited as a prove. Given the times of no freedom and negating of Macedonian Nation by Serbian and Bulgarian source, this documents are no real proof. --Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.167 (talk) 19:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Sources?[edit]

Can someone please add citations to the information. Otherwise there will be no settlement about his ethnicity. By the way, a Google search for the following phrases: Lazar Koliševski, Lazar Kolišev, Lazar Kolishevski, Lazar Kolishev, Лазар Колишевски and Лазар Колишев all returned results stating an ethnic Macedonian ethnicity. Even Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in the "Republic of Macedonia" if you care to look it up. Frightner 10:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I don't see an argument about his ethnicity - the article says he was "was a Communist political leader in Socialist Republic of Macedonia". His parents were Bulgarians though - his father fought in the Bulgarian army in World War I, and eventually was killed in the battles. Later Kolishevski himself declared Bulgarian consciousness in front of Boris III to evade death sentence on the base that his parents were Bulgarians. I guess all this makes him an ethnic Macedonian (or Serbian as he spoke mostly that language), but it doesn't override his origin. Feel free to add up that he was ethnic Macedonian, but do not erase facts about his family and early life. Oh, and Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in present-day Republic of Macedonia, which is a clear fact and I don't see any problem with it. --Laveol T 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Lazar Kolisevski was born 1914, during World War 1. It was common to claim Bulgarian or Serbian Ethnicity for the Macedonian People depends of the current ruler in Macedonia. Macedonian People were fighting for the Bulgarian Army, also Macedonian People were fighting for the Serbian army. Serving in army does not make you Bulgarian and Serbian. None of the countries on the Balkans during World War 2 were recognizing Macedonia or Macedonian Nation and language. Most of the people in Sveti Nikole and other places in Macedonia had Serbian last names. Please note that even "Kolisev" is not a Bulgarian last name. My last name is "Janev" and I am Macedonian. Have never been Bulgarian. Same for my ancestry. Not only "Kolisev" family but many other were claimed by Bulgarian invaders as Bulgarians. My ancestors were claimed Serbians during the times that Macedonia was under Serbian occupation. After the liberation the injustice has ended for the Macedonian People. They finally had the freedom living in their own country to be free to express their ethnicity, language and culture. You can for sure find a document that my grandfather was Serbian ( born 1914 ), but that is simply not relevant. --Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.167 (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that his father fought for the bulgarian army (sources please) doesent mean that he was of bulgarian descent, as im shure that the bulgarian army (as any mass of people) wasnt of pure ethnical backround. And i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through, and somebody makes you sign a confirmation that youre Turkish or something, and then its abused against you for your entire life.

I think you misunderstod my previous post - I said that the fact he signed this does not mean he thought he was Bulgarian. Where exactly did you see me calling Kolishevski a Bulgarian? Do you even question that he changedhis name from Kolishev to Kolishevski? I'll provide you sources, but I really doubt anything can make you change your mind. Oh, I'm not sure if I understand you, but do you wish me to get killed or something? "i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through" sounds kind of like it. --Laveol T 10:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't post the response Laveol :p I always sign my posts. As for your summary, I agree, as long as his ethnicity is not under heavy debate as to whether he is Bulgarian or Macedonian :) Frightner 10:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the history of this page, the user that replied to your first post was Falanga888. Frightner 10:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the last post was not for you - I know who wrote it - it's the same guy who's being reverting the page for some time now. I'll provide sources for his father and so on, but maybe tomorrow as I'm out of reverts for today. I think we can work well together with mutual compromises, but this guy - he just won't listen to me. --Laveol T 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Youre dishonoring the memory of a diceased man whos turning in his grave as you distort his family heritage and nacional conciousness,i have no reson to listen to you when you have nothing creddible to say.Falanga888

Since Falanga888 ignored a polite request to stop the revert war going on in the article, next time he vandalizes the article the admins will be notified.--The Fifth Horseman 14:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answer to the accusations of Laveol: Your writings for the Lazar Kolisevski page are Nationalistic Bulgarian Propaganda. Your views are offensive to the Macedonian People. Refer to the Lazar Kolisevski under Macedonian Language Wikipedia:

[Kolisevski]

Your views are drastically different from the Lazar Kolisevski's page in Macedonian language, and Macedonian History.

I am born in Sveti Nikole, Republic of Macedonia. Have lived there for 30ty years and for sure I know that ethnic and cultural specifics of my town and my country.

Check [Factbook] for Macedonia, and people living in Macedonia. Please do try to find Bulgarian People there.

The book you have cited in the article is a Pure Bulgarian Nationalistic Progaganda, that negates the Macedonian Nation, Macedonian History and Macedonian Language.

I have started editing the page recently, purely as it contains untrue and offensive information which is far from the reality, and has one sole purpose: Negation of Macedonia and it's History and language.

Please note that under the [Kolisevski] there is no book from a Bulgarian author cited, but books published in Macedonia.

Please write for the areas where you can truly contribute with encyclopedic and scientific knowledge, without expressing views that are based on the reality. Bulgarian Propaganda is based on Romantic Natinalism from the 19th century, while Macedonia was still under the Ottoman Rule. In this century of open information and collaboration, You just can't continue with that outdated propadanda which is offensive to the Macedonian People.

Keep in mind that Lazar Kolisevski was a Macedonian. Has never expressed any claims that he is not Macedonian. Regardless that you have a link to a document asking the Bulgarian Tzar during the Second World War to revert his death sentence: During World War 2 and the occupation of Macedonia by Fascist Bulgaria ( Fascist as the same was true for Germany, Italy and others during World War 2 ), Bulgarian forces were not recognizing Macedonians as such, but as Bulgarians. Given this what was to write he in this letter. Also before the World War 2, between the Balkan Wars, and World War 1, and World War 2, the same people that were claimed by occupant Bulgaria as Bulgarians, were claimed by Serbia as Serbians. After the liberation from the Bulgarian and later German occupation, people were free to express their Nation as Macedonian.

Please do not return us in the times before the World War 2. Macedonian Nation is recognized as such, same is for Macedonian Language and the state - Republic of Macedonia.

So the edits were not true, Anti-Macedonian, and myself as a Macedonian, could not let that propaganda on Wikipedia exist.

I love Wikipedia, and I regard it as a great information resource. As your edits are not in line with what Wikipedia mostly is, I just edited the page to take the false information out.

And about the sources, you can refer to the books given in the Lazar Kolisevski page under Macedonian Wikipedia:

If you read the writings just above (which you obviously didn't care to do) you'll see that this version of the page is a result of a consensus between me and another Macedonian editor. Therefore I'll revert you till you provide a source that overrides the one already given on the case. See, noone here cares what you think, this is history and there are sources for it. Don't like facts - fine, but don't edit the article then. --Laveol T 17:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Laveol" - What you are doing is a Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, it is Anti-Macedonian. You are pushing Bulgarian views which do negate the Macedonian Nation, Language, Culture and History. Macedonian Historians do not agree with Bulgarian on many things. Citing a Bulgarian Book on Kolisevski is not relevant, as it is presenting Bulgarian View which is not in line with the reality. It belongs to 19th century not to 21st. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev (talk • contribs) 19:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Литература[edit]

  • Драган Кљакиќ „Времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1994.
  • Крсте Црвенковски, Славко Милосавлевски „Нашиот поглед за времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1996.

This books are published in Skopje. Lazar Kolisevski was living in Skopje, Republic in Macedonia. If he was living in Sofia, maybe you could state a Bulgarian book as a source. That is just not the case.

The Propaganda you are publishing here is highly offensive, and should be removed from Wikipedia.

--Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev (talk • contribs) 17:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Claims that family of Lazar Kolisevski had Bulgarian ethnicity[edit]

When someone claims for a Macedonian person to be a Bulgarian, is an offense to the Macedonians, similar or worse when someone calls Bulgarian a Tatar. Kolisevski has always stated he has a Macedonian ancestry. He had done a lot to stop the Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, that claims a lot of aspects about Macedonian Nation to be Bulgarian. These views do not exists in reality. These views are coming from the 19th century Romantic movement of the new Balkan nations, like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. After they got independent from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, and Macedonia being under the Ottoman rule until early 20th century, all of these neighboring nations had assimilation policies towards the people living in Macedonia. The fruit of this policies were the first and second Balkan Wars when the territory of Macedonia was taken over from the Ottoman Empire and divided between these neighboring countries. And according to the new rulers of these territories, they were inhabited by Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks. Bulgaria got the smallest part, which was the reason for starting the Second Balkan War. These policies truly belong to the past and should rest in peace there. Macedonian people after the liberation and proclaiming of federal Macedonia as part of Yugoslavia, had for the first time in the recent history to proclaim there Nationality, Language and Culture as they feel it: Macedonian.--Ejanev (talk) 02:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have not made one constructive remark, but simply contined with the rants. I'm not claiming he was Bulgarian, but simply adding his Bulgarian name since his birth name was obviously not the name he later became famous with. This is sourced with not one, but two sources, one of which coming from former Yugoslavia. Your only motive is that you don't like the fact and this is not the way Wikipedia works. For the last time I ask you to stop with the nonsense. --Laveol T 09:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See the section below about the Macedonian last names, and common endings of the Macedonian last names, as well some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages.--Ejanev (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian last names and some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages[edit]

Even last name Kolisev is a Macedonian one. Last names ending with "ev", "ov" are not Bulgarian. It happens that you have those in Bulgaria. But you have those last names in Macedonia, Russia, Check Republic, and so on.

Kolisev is a Macedonian last name. Same is Kolisevski. You can find both kinds with "ov|ova", "ev|eva", "vski/vska", "ski/ska" and others in Republic of Macedonia. So changing a last name from Kolisev to Kolisevski does not have any Bulgarian/AntiBulgarian implications. My last name is "Janev". You can find in Macedonia also "Janevski", "Janeski". All of those are Macedonian last names. The fact that you can have "Janev" in Bulgaria does not translate to ethnicity/origin claims in Macedonia.

Here are some last names that finish on "ov", "ev" and are not Bulgarian neither Macedonian:

[Sergei Lavrov] [Anton Chekhov] [Martina Navratilova]

So these last name endings are typical but not exclusive for some of the Slavic languages. Same is with "vski/vska", "ski/ska", "ich" which are shared between a number of Slavic languages.

To come back to Kolisevski: Kolisevski is a Macedonian last name, as well is Kolisev. If you can find a person living in Bulgaria with one of those last names, and probably you could not, does not gives any conclusion about ethnicity or being a Pro-Bulgarian. --Ejanev (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link illustrating different cases of common endings in the Macedonian last names [Macedonians]--Ejanev (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poor sourcing[edit]

The sourcing for this article, especially those parts motivated by the notorious Macedonian-Bulgarian on-wiki polemics, are godawful, as usual. First, about the name: Usage of the name form in "-ev" seems to be absolutely marginal in English. There's one English-language publication cited for it, and that's really the only one that comes up in Google books. I couldn't see the actual context of the quote within that book; but what I could see is that even that book uses "-evski" more often, and lists only "-evski" in its index. Second, I don't see any reason why we would provide an extra "Bulgarian: ..." listing of the name form in the lead. The guy was never a Bulgarian citizen, except during the short period of fascist occupation, against which he was actively fighting. The claim that his parents were consciously pro-Bulgarian is sourced to an obscure book published in communist Bulgaria by an obscure communist Bulgarian diplomat; I have no idea what that book is about, but I would doubt we should treat it as a reliable source about anything relating to intra-communist petty nationalist disputes. In fact, the whole issue about both his name and his national identity seems to play a role exclusively in that context, of petty nationalist polemics, and nowhere else. I have no doubt that this person, like many others, may have had a name whose usage fluctuated between "-ev" and "-evski" forms, but even mentioning that topic seems to be giving undue weight to a nationalist fringe issue.

Finally, I strongly object against linking to just about anything on nationalist propaganda sites like "promacedonia.org".

In short, with most of these issues I'm effectually on the side of User:Ejanev. That doesn't change the fact that Ejanev has been edit-warring disruptively. But so has his opponent, User:Laveol; both are really on the same level here. Can we please all try being reasonable now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I agree on the sourcing part. But still the document was signed by the guy no matter who scanned it and where it was uploaded. Btw it speaks both of his alleged Bulgariannes as of the policy of the Bulgarian authorities at the time. As for the Yugoslav book - I thought it was a pretty good source cause it was actually a Yugoslav politician that referred to him as Kolishev effectively trying to disparage him by mentioning his BG roots. But never mind - generally you seem right for most of the stuff. I'm interested though if the user's getting blocked as a sockpuppeteer. Cause this is a pretty obvious case. --Laveol T 22:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't found time to look into that closely enough yet. Perhaps you'd be better off asking for a CU? Given the nastiness of the personal attacks from the IPs, there'd certainly be sanctions if socking is substantiated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image[edit]

File:Kolishev.jpg
Koliševski's appeal to his death sentence to Bulgarian Tsar Boris III.

The image is related to the subject, and it may warrant inclusion in the article. However, it is presented in a biased manner contrary to Wikipedia policy & guidelines (WP:NPOV). It should be stated in the clearest manner that this person stated that he was "Bulgarian" while under threat of execution by Bulgaria, and that his actions and statements clearly indicate he considered himself a Yugoslav (and/or) Macedonian, not a Bulgarian. Please bear in mind that the omission of information in a biased manner is just as misleading (and discouraged) as adding new biased sentences.
If a statement was given under duress it should be made clear that that was the case, or it should be completely disregarded as irrelevant. (I don't know if this is just me but if someone put a gun to my head, I'd probably say I was a martian, or a devout theist ;) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do insist on having the image there and I agree we need a more neutral caption that mentions the circumstances (but doesn't overemphasize them so as to make the entire thing make no sense). Of course he was pressured to renounce communism, but remember it was 1941, before Tito, Yugoslav socialism, the Macedonian language and the Yugoslav support for a Macedonian ethnic identity. His actions indicate he was an anti-monarchist communist rebel, not an ethnic Macedonian. And his signature under that latter is as relevant and as real as can be. The act of omitting the picture would be biased too. Best, Todor→Bozhinov 16:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am well aware of all that, yes, and I do not intend to enter another Macedonian/Bulgarian discussion. Here are the facts you are disregarding:

  • 1) The Macedonian ethnicity did not exist, but the Yugoslav ethnicity did, very much so. Yugoslav Communist Party doctrine for much of the pre-war period was unitarianist as well, preaching a Yugoslav ethnicity. If I'm not mistaken, Koliševski was a member of this party at the time we are discussing.
  • 2) A person can consider himself to be of an ethnicity not yet fully recognized. This is particularly true of the period during which the war or struggle for the establishment of such a nationality is taking place. Technically, in 1941 the Croatian ethnicity "did not exist" as well. This did not prevent many people to consider themselves Croats. In the same way, it may not have prevented Koliševski from considering himself Macedonian Yugoslav at a time when such an ethnicity was not officially recognized.
  • 3) Even if a person considers himself to be of one nationality at one time or another, he has the right to change his stance on this. Particularly in such controversial matters, and particularly in the Balkans. Assuming you've conclusively proven that Lazar Koliševski considered himself an ethnic Bulgarian during the WWII period, the man would still be listed as an ethnic Macedonian or Yugoslav because of his own testimony to that effect given later during his life (not given under duress, mind you).

Finally, I'll add that any caption excluding the term "given under duress" and excluding the mention of an execution threat would be quite biased indeed. Especially if it tries ti depict the whole thing as "begging for mercy". --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You do have a point. It wasn't only the Yugoslav communist doctrine that advocated such internationalism, it was the common doctrine of the International. Surely, Kolishev(ski) did approve of this doctrine and did support regional umbrella identities instead of ethnic identities ("Soviets", "Macedonians", "Thracians", "Dobrujans", "Yugoslavs", etc.) That doesn't mean he had this or that ethnic identity. Now, as to the fact that Kolishev(ski) was so flexible about his identity, that only shows how feeble the Macedonian national idea was at the time. It was in its conception. I'm not claiming he shouldn't be listed as a Macedonian or a Yugoslav because that's what he was, but we can't afford not to mention the fact that he did identify as something else.
I see we agree the image is notable and has its place in the article, captioned properly. As a side somewhat more distanced from the issue, I'd recommend that you proprose a caption and I'm pretty sure we can reach a reasonable compromise about the wording :) Todor→Bozhinov 19:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Heh :), but as it happens the Communist Party doctrine at the time (1941) was not unitarianist (indeed the KPJ was among the most unique of its kind). The Communist Party openly advocated the "freedom of all six ethnicities" (Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Muslim, Montenegrin and, indeed, Macedonian), this is what won them the huge support they enjoyed. Therefore, as he was a member of the Yugoslav Communist Party, it can only be assumed that he supported the goals of this same Communist Party. This thesis can also be confirmed by his post-1941 actions and statements.

  • "...that only shows how feeble the Macedonian national idea was at the time" that's quite a stretch. No it does not. It is more than likely a testament only to a young man's desperation and fear of death. Such an interpretation is your own and cannot be used in any way as proof for your thesis.
  • "...we can't afford not to mention the fact that he did identify as something else." Did he? What ever makes you say that? Surely not only the death row letter? Any objective observer will find such an interpretation based only on a desperate letter quite unfounded.

As for the image... well, let me try to put this in the proper perspective:
From what I can gather, this is his appeal letter to the death sentence. It was added here to promote a POV, a Bulgarian POV that Koliševski identified himself as "Bulgarian". This is not only against WP:NPOV, but is also quite unlikely and unsupported by any real source. Now then, as I said, it is relevant as it is his appeal letter, but not because it shows him stating "I am Bulgarian". This statement proves nothing and has no bearing whatsoever on any encyclopedia.
In short, the only way to make this image, that was added to promote a POV, neutral (WP:NPOV) and acceptable to all sides is to omit that sentence from the caption. The sentence may be retained in the text, but an image highlighting that particular part of his appeal in the caption is promoting a POV, and must be removed. This is why I recommend the caption to simply state "Lazar Koliševski's appeal to his death sentence." If you're here to improve the article, you won't miss that biased and likely incorrect sentence, as the image will still be there (with a perfectly correct caption). If you're here to promote Bulgarian POV, then you most likely won't agree and will insist on highlighting the "Bulgarian sentence" beyond all measure :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you think it is a Bulgarian POV that Kolishev(ski) identified as a Bulgarian at least once? This is an undisputed and undisputable fact. The letter is as much notable for being an appeal leter as it is notable for Kolishev(ski)'s identification in it. Leaving out the most important facts contained in the letter from the caption would not only be POV, but also a violation of WP:CAP as it would omit key facts related to the image and would not summarize its importance properly. Clearly, we can't afford to conceal relevant information. Of course, I'm eager to work on producing an NPOV caption, but I'll oppose any proposals that fail to mention the letter's importance as that would violate WP:CAP. Todor→Bozhinov 20:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What evidence do you have that Lazar Koliševski "identified as Bulgarian at least once"? Surely you're not claiming that the death-row appeal letter can be used to prove that idea!? That is complete nonsense. (WP:CAP is not Wikipedia policy and cannot be "violated", unlike WP:NPOV.)
Let me get this straight: This person identified as Macedonian Yugoslav his entire life, and now you're saying a letter he wrote trying to avoid getting publicly shot is proof he "identified as Bulgarian" while on death row in a Bulgarian prison?! And all this at a time when he was one of the leading members of a political party advocating the view that his people (including himself) were ethnic Macedonians (and not Bulgarians)?!
Are you aware this is a serious encyclopedia? There is absolutely no way this letter or its image can be used as a foundation for speculations as to the "momentary ethnic identification" of Lazar Koliševski. Any mention of the letter's contents must be represented in a completely non-misleading manner, with the circumstances fully elaborated. What you're suggesting is so completely way off, I can assure you that any such insinuations have no chance of getting included in the article (at least when someone knowledgeable of WP policy has it on his watchlist). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please take it easy, it's not like I've been here since yesterday and require a briefing on policies and how things work. I'm not claiming he ever had a Bulgarian consciousness, he was obviously a Yugoslav Macedonist communist. However, he did apparently assert his Bulgarian origin and identity at least once. Yes, it was under pressure, but legally, his words and signature are there. The letter is a fact that nobody can deny, as much as you might detest that.
And please don't reiterate that he was going to get shot: remember, this is WWII and Bulgaria has caught a dangerous anti-government communist leader. Instead of dealing with him outright wartime-style, Bulgaria brought him before a court and sentenced him (what he did warranted a death sentence under that time's Bulgarian law). There is nothing that is wrong or controversial about this so as to use it as an argument. You commit a crime, you get sentenced. What's more, the appeal letter of this anti-government partisan was acknowledged by the tsar and his death sentence was amended. And that's still WWII, when the people we were allied with at the time murdered at least six million innocent men and women just like that. Have some respect for the way he was treated.
Are you asking me if I'm aware that this is a serious encyclopedia? Are you aware this conversation is over? Once again, have some respect to the people you discuss with. Todor→Bozhinov 12:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Easily offended aren't we? :) I apologize if I turned out too harsh, it was not my intent. As far as I know I "commented on content not the contributor". Keep in mind that the tone of the conversation cannot be conveyed by written text. Now then:

  • Firstly, this is not a matter of "legality". He did state in one document that he was "Bulgarian", but considering the circumstances and the context of his life it is quite clearly more likely he was lying (I keep repeating this point because you keep ignoring it). Therefore, to over-emphasize this completely meaningless statement serves no purpose, except to further a Bulgarian POV (a violation of WP:NPOV).
  • What you're ignoring is that Koliševski was not a Bulgarian citizen. He was a Yugoslav citizen, plain and simple. Bulgarian (Axis) forces occupied a part of Yugoslavia and proceeded to deal out jusice over people they legally had no jurisdiction over. In that context, I find your depiction of Bulgarian authorities' conduct in this matter as "merciful", quite distasteful.
  • Finally, the Yugoslav Partisans in the southernmost parts of occupied Yugoslavia (Vardar Banovina) primarily revolted against the fact that their homes were occupied by a foreign army. Vardar Macedonia was occupied by Bulgaria, it was never a part of modern Bulgaria. According to you, Partisans in Serbia were anti-government rebels revolting against the German government. No. They were rebels fighting against the German occupation forces. Just like those in occupied Vardar Macedonia were fighting against Bulgarian occupation forces. To say that they were fighting "against the Bulgarian government" is a play on words, used to support the point of view that adds legitimacy to the Bulgarian occupation of southern Yugoslavia. This is historic revisionism, plain and simple, as international law (now as well as then) does not consider wartime territorial acquisitions valid in any context. Now, you may not support all this (when its spelled out), but you're dangerously close.

--DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Greeting1941.jpg
An image of about two dozen people greeting the Bulgarian Army in Vardar Banovina, April 1941. A lot more people turned up on the streets of Zagreb, with the majority of the Yugoslav Partisan's divisions and brigades later being drawn from the Federal State of Croatia :P

DIRECTOR, did you ever read the document? I think, you do not know how complicated is the Macedonian Question. Stop with that failed political ideas - Yugoslavism and Communism. They are dead. The next will be the Macedonism. Be shure!

In 1934 the Comintern issued a resolution about the recognition of Macedonian ethnicity.[1] It must be noted that the existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[2][3] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[4] Because of that Vardar Macedonia was the only region where Yugoslav communist leader Josip Broz Tito had not developed a strong Partisan movement after its annexation to Bulgaria in 1941. To improve the situation, in 1943 the Communist Party of Macedonia was established.Jingby (talk) 15:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever, Jingby. Try to avoid getting down on a personal level. Makes your "arguments" sound cheap and desperate, among other things (or it would if they had anything to do with the issue). Now then, if you'd be so kind as to direct your attention to the title of this article, you'll notice it says "Lazar Koliševski", not "Macedonian ethnicity". This discussion is about Lazar Koliševski in the year 1941 (which is within the 1940s and is 7 years after 1934). While I'm sure you're absolutely bursting with information about the future Bulgarian annexation of the Republic of Macedonia (LoL), I hope you'll spare me all the unnecessary nonsense. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

  1. ^ "Резолюция о македонской нации (принятой Балканском секретариате Коминтерна" - Февраль 1934 г, Москва
  2. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN 0691043566
  3. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  4. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.

Request for Comments[edit]

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Logic-defying assertion[edit]

  1. We have a source that supports Koliševski's mother being of Aromanian origin.
  2. Koliševski was arrested and sentenced to death in 1941 by the Bulgarians. At this time, he filled out some paperwork claiming that his parents were Bulgarian and pleaded for his life claiming Bulgarian descent.

We know the latter are both incorrect and unreliable. Incorrect because we have a source stating his mother was not Bulgarian but Aromanian. Unreliable because he was sentenced to death and presumably sought to be spared his life by claiming Bulgarian descent. His father, per Bulgarian sources, was actually a "Serboman". It is inappropriate to use factually incorrect claims from a death row inmate as backing for his parents' ethnic origins. --Local hero talk 04:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the source. I covered it in the article. Jingiby (talk) 05:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What he denied?[edit]

Local hero, what he claimed is that he didn't fill out only the plea for mercy, but not his personal card in prison. Also in relation to the death sentences of the then Bulgarian military courts, existed only one opportunity to submit a personally signed "appeal for clemency". Below the pleas for mercy, the three names of the petitioner can be seen written in his own hand. No third party names or signature of a lawyer are visible. By the way, the text that Kolisevski denies completing these documents is present in the article further down in the text.

PS. Local hero, read what wrote about the case of Kolisevski Kolendic here. According to him, Kolisevski developed 4 different versions about who and how signed his two requests for mercy, his last version being that no one signed them and they remained only unsigned blanks. And Kolendic claims that he personally received certified copies of the pleas for mercy in Bulgaria and deposited all these documents in the party archive of the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1946. They were personally signed by Kolisevski, but in 1989 they had already disappeared. Kolendic claims that the originals remained in Bulgaria. And they are indeed kept there, and are signed by Kolisevski himself and are in the military archive in Veliko Tarnovo.Jingiby (talk) 16:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can a quote be provided from the cited source to support the claim that "According to Kolishevski's personal card, filled by him in the Skopje prison, both of his parents and he himself are listed as Bulgarians." --Local hero talk 20:36, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Look, it's obvious Kolisevski was lying to protect himself. His opinion is reflected in the article. All secondary sources are adamant that he signed these documents. Otherwise, there was no way he would have stayed alive. If all this were to be added and explained, this section would become longer than the article itself. I could also upload photos of the documents to see his three names written in Bulgarian, the resolutions of Tsar Boris and the Minister of War, thanks to which he stayed alive, etc. But I think the article will not gain from it. Keep in mind Wikipedia is based on secondary reliable sources, not on personal opinions, i.e. that of Kolisevski. May you provide a single secondary reliable source stating he didn't signed them? Jingiby (talk) 07:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What seems obvious to me is a man was put in prison and sentenced to death by Bulgarians. So he may have lied about his descent to save his life (at the very least, it is known his mother was Aromanian, so he did lie). Let's not forget his parents died when he was basically a toddler. But it doesn't matter what "seems obvious" to you and I.
This card, however, may indeed list himself and his parents as Bulgarian. What I'm looking for is something confirming that he filled it out, otherwise the wording must be modified. --Local hero talk 16:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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