Talk:Leigh, Greater Manchester/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Recent editing changes

Alot of the sections in the article were about the history of Leigh, so I put all these together. I took out some details like 'theres a Pataks factory next to Asda' and 'the chowbenters chased the Cavaliers from chowbent to Lowton common' because if you don't know where asda is or chowbent and lowton common they're not very helpful.

Also I don't think we need to reference the connection between the spinning jenny, spinning jenny way and the spinning gate shopping centre, the clues in the name.

I think the notable residents section could do with more rugby players, at the momment it looks like Leighs famous for producing Hollyoaks actresses!!

This thing about Leigh cheese being famous as well, if anyone from Leigh reads this and knows about our cheese ever being famous, leave a message here, or better still, if the person who wrote about Leigh cheese in 2004 reads this, tell us the source of this information. I've looked at your contribution history and you've also contributed to the cheddar article !! I'll leave this message here for a month to get some opinion and if no ones heared of Leigh cheese or can give us a reference to it being good for toasting then I'm deleting/toasting the cheese information!--K.murphy 20:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't remove "the cheese...thing". Before the industrial revolution South Lancs would be mainly dairy farmed, the soil (without modern fertilisers) isn't good for much other than grass. It follows that cheese was produced in the area and the reference in Treasure Island is testament to this. There aren't any other towns in the U.K. called Leigh that could otherwise, reasonably, be considered the home of Leigh Toaster. Obviously since textiles, the canals, mining, and the railways moved in all the agriculture stopped and Leigh hasn't produced cheese since but let's not ignore things that happened outside of the Leigh of your era. Also what's with the Pubs in Leigh list? It's stupid.... Shall we list all the streets in Leigh too.

Sad as I am, I searched the full text of Treasure Island available online here and I can find no reference to Leigh, toaster, Leigh toaster, or Leigh cheese by Ben Gunn or any other character. Parmesan cheese is mentioned on page 179 but thats about it. OK, I wont remove the part about Leigh cheese being famous, but I'd question using Treasure Island as a reference to support this claim. K.murphy 09:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Leigh is famous for cheese? --Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 09:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Apparently it was, see page 30 of this pdf, I really can't find any mention of it in Treasure Island though. K.murphy 09:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Reference to Leigh toaster is entirely spurious, and has been deleted - Ben Gunn merely craves "cheese - toasted, mainly", and is given some Parmesan by Dr Livesey, as another editor has pointed out. I've deleted the reference accordingly. Crac4543 (talk) 10:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


Cheese was produced in Leigh many years ago but faded out due to other industries. The 'Leigh Toaster' later become what we know today as 'Lancashire Cheese'. It's a shame it's still not produced in a shop in Leigh today or we reclaim it back as we did come up with the recipe. There has even been remarks to the 'Leigh Toaster' and how it became 'Lancashire Cheese' on t.v which then led me to investigate this further. pete (94.194.253.77 (talk) 18:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC))

People from Leigh

I have just removed the following from the article:

Leigh's notable residents past and present include:

The rationale is that most (but I note, not all) of these did not cite their sources. Some don't assert their notability to be included, and some don't have articles or explanations at all. They are also violation of our policy about discussing people's lives on Wikipedia (every element of their life must be attributed to a reference or source). Please do not restore this content.

What should happen next is that the most noteworthy could form a section of text (not a list) like Chadderton#Notable people, with the rest going to List of people from Wigan.... but only if you cite your sources. Good luck. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Some of these people are listed as being born in Leigh, Lancashire which historically is not a part of Wigan or the wider Wigan Borough. Therefor putting them on a "List of people from Wigan" is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.208.59 (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  • People from Wigan should, naturally, be listed as being 'people from Wigan'.

However, although Wigan is a 'component town' of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, not all people from the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan are from Wigan.

As I've said before, Leigh is no more. It's gone. Finished, in 1972. People who profess to be 'from Leigh' are the same people who profess to be 'from Lancashire'.

Those towns, which once formed Leigh, are now forming the 'Metropolitan Borough of Wigan', and they are part of the County of Greater Manchester. Not Lancashire.

It's been so for 38 years. Get used to it!

92.239.71.235 (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Jemmy, we've already proven that you have absolutely no understanding of boundaries or how changes in government districts work. Leigh
In 1887, John Bartholomew's Gazetteer of the British Isles described Leigh like this:
Leigh.-- market town and par. (ry. stations West Leigh, and Leigh and Bedford), SW. Lancashire, 21 miles NE. of Liverpool, 16 miles NW. of Manchester, and 193 miles NW. of London by rail - par., 13,792 ac., pop. 46,959; town, pop. 21,734; 2 Banks, 2 newspapers. Market-day, Saturday. The town is situated on the Wigan and Leigh branch of the Leeds and Liverpool and Bridgwater Canals, and has an extensive trade in its mfrs. of cotton and silk; the minor industries being glass-working, ironfounding, malting, and brewing. Coal mines are in the vicinity.
Much like your St Helens gibberish, Leigh being a Municipal Borough does not invalidate Leigh as a "town" in its own right. Koncorde (talk) 07:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ehrlich, Felicity (2004), "Hilton, James (1900–1954)", [[Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]], Oxford University Press, retrieved 2008-11-23 {{citation}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)
  2. ^ Mott, Nevill (2004), "Jones, Sir John Edward Lennard- (1894–1954)", [[Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]], Oxford University Press, retrieved 2008-11-23 {{citation}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)
  3. ^ Paul Mason, BBC News, retrieved 2008-11-16
  4. ^ Greenslade, Roy (2004), "Potter, Lynda Lee- (1935–2004)", [[Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]], Oxford University Press, retrieved 2008-11-23 {{citation}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)

Leigh debate

It seems to me that there is a Wikpedia problem which should be reflected in the article. There are two camps: one who want to consider Leigh still as a town but also wish to have nothing 'bad' said about it (witness the discussion on the lack a railway station), the other who wish to consider Leigh as non-existent (placing it in Wigan). The solution surely is to admit these discussions as fact (as academics would). It is fact that there are views (uttered by former MPs et al). It is not POV to describe the two views - encyclopedias will present the views of many. The fault with Wikipedia is that it treats established historical and current comment as 'negative' and POV - almost to the point as removing 'negative' comment on someone like Hitler. What many Wikpedia 'editors' do is assume that established comment is something to exclude from a balanced article. They confuse establuished comment and debates with personal views. It may be wrong to suggest that Leigh's public transport is inferior to many towns (or places) but MPs, the GMPTE, the Train operating companies, right or wrongly, have mentioned it. It should therefore be included. And there is discussion about the subsuming of a once independent town in Wigan. That discussion is real (outside Wikipedia) and should have a place in a true encyclopedic article, so long as where the discussion is held is referenced and those who have the discussion are of some weight. I despair of Wikipedia sometimes with its (for example)"don't say anything nasty about homeopathy because to do so is a personal view" - no, if all the world says homeopathy has its flaws then that must be accurately reported...and the alternative view. More bizarre still is the removal of sections from articles with the tag "removed as this is original research." So we have the odd situation where a person (writing about a town) can take a photograph of a new building being constructed (which has a billboard outside stating what it is going to be and date of opening) and have his addition to a town's website removed because "it is original research." Many Wikipedia editors have not a clue about what academic writing is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.245.21 (talk) 07:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Taken from the Wikipedia Article - The Municipal Borough of Leigh -

Leigh's claim to be the largest UK town without a railway station

This claim was not 'cogently argued' in the reference given; it was simply asserted - and wrongly - by the town's MP in a parliamentary debate. I've amended the article's wording to reflect this. You only need to check the relevant census figures for, for example, Leigh and Corby - the Wikipedia articles on both include them - to see this is a nonsense. Crac4543 (talk) 15:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've once again reverted the edit. A few minutes' research reveals the following nine towns (there may be more) in the UK alone that are larger than Leigh, and have no railway station: Castlereagh, Corby, Dudley, Gosport, Halesowen, Kingswood, Newcastle-under-Lyne, Newtownabbey, and Washington (Tyne & Wear). And as for the claim to be one of the largest in Europe - well, it is frankly risible. Please desist. Crac4543 (talk) 10:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but Leigh is ONE of the most important towns in UK without a railway station (I agree the Europe thing is not right. The entry now reflects this accurately. Ithinkthis issue should be mentioned as in this age such things are important to a town/area as a sense of identity, etc. etc. I come from this town, but do not live there now: to reject concerns such as having no railway station seems to me to represent the destruction of civic pride of so many of thesewonderful Lancashire towns. No railway station? Who cares? Let's all get in our cars and visit out of town shopping centres. sit in front of the internet and plasma TV screen. Have you seen the film Wall-E that's how it's going. So let people have proven concerns about amenities such as railway stations - come to think of it no cinema either (do you remember the last one - the Classic?). Whatis Leigh now? Let's mention people's concerns... accurately I'll agree

JPM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.211.39 (talk) 19:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


I don't intend to get into an edit war, but - if nothing else - you've adequately demonstrated no sense of WP:NPOV, not least in the above comment. Crac4543 (talk) 08:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The finished article is now just right - it mentions that Leigh, beloved Leigh, is without a Railway station and is one of the biggest places without one. Personally I believe that Leigh has been forgotten by Greater Manchester. A once important, independent town, producing opera stars and much more besides, with cinemas and railway stations, history, great people, and so much more: now reduced to not even a commuter town. If you remember Leigh in 1960 then it was not exactly the centre of the Universe, but at least you would know that there was a point to visit it and a reason to live there. Even in the 70s I would go to the Classic cinema - everything was there. Poor Leigh, a shadow of its former glory. I do hope it recovers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.122.127 (talk) 15:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


Exactly: there was no Wp:NPOV in my comments above - I got them out in discussion rather than on the page. My point is this much of the discussion here seems to be preventing the inclusion of the bad and good about Leigh - the negative and positive. All has to be positive If Leigh must be presented as a Nirvana on earth then that's not accurate. As it happens Leigh is one of the biggest towns in Britain without a railway station: I can't see what the problem is in pointing this out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.42.157 (talk) 09:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I see this is an old argument BUT Leigh simply isn't THE largest town without a railway station. I have changed it to "one of the" which I think reflects the current situation. --J3Mrs (talk) 10:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I suspect that, with the recent closure of the Oldham Loop Line, that Oldham may now be a contender. --Jza84 |  Talk  12:22, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Bury is larger than Leigh anyway, and there's no National Rail station in the town. Dudley is another contender, being larger than both Bury and Oldham, as Dudley station closed in 1964 and Sandwell & Dudley station is in Oldbury. Fingerpuppet (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


I detect a strange "fear" that Leigh may be labelled as a large town without a railway station - the Wikipedia entry on "towns without railwaqy stations" is accurate and reflects the fact that Leigh is really one of the largest twons without a railway station - indeed is probably THE largest (Oldham and Bury are/will be connected to the rest of the world by light rail). When will people understand that it is NOT an insult to say Leigh lacks a railway station but rather a plea for support for the town. If Leigh really is the biigest town without a railway station - then what is the problem with saying it? I cannot fathom what the sensitivity is. It's supporting Leigh not doing it down. By the way Dudley has Dudley Port station. Newcastle-under-lyne has SToke station within a mile or so, Corby has re-opened. Leigh IS the biggest non rail/tram linked town in Brittain -FACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.214.118 (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Dudley Port isn't in Dudley. It's a small town nearby and isn't even in the larger Metropolitan Borough of Dudley, but in the Metropolitan Borough of Sandwell. Newcastle under Lyme is not one of the towns of Stoke-on-Trent. By your theory, Leigh has a station because there's one in Wigan or others in the Greater Manchester Urban Area. The article you cite is massively POV and full of logic holes. I have commented further there.
Leigh is one of, but not the largest town without a railway station. Fingerpuppet (talk) 10:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

"The article you cite is full of POV..." = typical Wikipedia speak. Academic articles will contain "facts" which could be challenged by others - but that is the academic approach - you should inclued both/all views. One approach (when bidding for government transport money for example) is that Newcastle-under-Lyme has a railway station which is nearby enough to "count" - you may disagree and others do. The largest town without a railway station true criteria may never be found but not to include "it has been argued that Leigh is one of...." is just POV eradication gone mad. You might as well remove all references to statistics just because there are different views as how to use them. The debate is important as in bidding for transport money from regions/government to solve transport problems requires people to have the knowledge and point to a town's plight. The argument for not including at least the fact that there is a debate in this article nseems to me to appear that those writing it don't want to have bad publicity in the article - Leigh has no cinema either (which is a fact) do you not want to include that information either? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JosepAlberti (talk • contribs) 00:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


  • LEIGH is not a 'town'. Leigh is an 'Former Municipal Borough', comprising of more than one town. The Local Government Act 1972 abolished Leigh, and the towns contained in Leigh were placed under the authority of Wigan council, which meant that they were then in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan (Wigan council's area of authority). Leigh, therefore, does not exist and hasn't done since the Local Government Act 1972 came into force in 1974. 92.239.71.235 (talk) 19:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Leigh - A 'Former' Place

As explained in this article, Leigh is a 'former' municipal borough, created by the merging of Pennington, Westleigh, Bedford and part of Atherton. In April 1974, the former municipal borough was abolished and the previous constituent townships were absorbed into the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan for administrative purposes.

It follows that Leigh has not existed since April, 1974. All roadsigns stating 'Leigh' should be removed.

Agreed then? Leigh does not exist!

Jemmy, your continued to failure to understand that the abolition of a Municipal Borough does not immediately dispel the "town" of Leigh (or any of your other demented suggestions) really is indicative of why you should stick to fixing your pet gripe of Wigan being used for everything. You patently do not understand how historical boundaries, administrative centres etc work, and continue to confuse in your mind townships, towns, boroughs (of all varieties) districts and parishes.
Leigh exists as a town, it has existed as a town and Parish since 1264. It was made (much like St Helens) the administrative centre of the townships of Atherton, Pennington, Westleigh and Bedford and in 1974 the only thing that was abolished was that administrative control; not the town.
William Farrer & J. Brownbill, 1907, A History of the County of Lancaster: Volume 3
Leech, 1264; Leeche, 1268; Leghthe, 1305; Leght, 1417; Lech, 1451; Legh, xvi cent.
Leigh (A.S. leáh = pasture, meadow) was the name of a district embracing 13,793 acres, bounded on the north, east, and partly on the south by the hundred of Salford, on the west by the parish of Wigan, and on the south-west by the parish of Winwick. As its name denotes it was a district rich in meadow and pasture land, and the produce of its dairies—the Leigh cheese—was formerly noted for its excellence.
The town of Leigh, standing upon the high road from Bolton-le-Moors to St. Helens, at one time mainly a pack-horse road, lies mostly in the township of Pennington, but partly in Westleigh. The name of the ancient parish may be regarded as first legally applied to the town of Leigh upon the amalgamation of the three local boards of Westleigh, Pennington, and Bedford in 1875, but for centuries it was understood to denote that part of the ancient parish which comprised the townships of Westleigh and Pennington, sometimes also that of Bedford.
Hooray for historical evidence? Koncorde (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Historical evidence my arse. Simply the opinion of a historian in 1907.

I accept that Leigh was the name of a parish, but the 'towns' are Westleigh, Pennington, Bedford and Atherton. Leigh was disbanded in 1974, just the same as the Wigan County Borough was. The Wigan County Borough wasn't a town, it was two towns, Wigan and Pemberton. Two towns, one authority (borough).

St.Helens was three and a half towns, one authority (borough)

92.239.71.235 (talk) 00:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

He wasn't really a historian when he was referring to the actual town as it existed on the day he wrote that very piece. The historical data behind his comments however, and his investigations into the development of Leigh as a Parish, Borough and Town are hardly fundamental to the assertion that Leigh is a town however, given that you are how much better qualified than Farrer and Brownbill to judge?
Westleigh, Pennington and Atherton were "townships" which, as I have tried to explain on prior occasions, are areas of land and not "towns" (although they may contain a town by the same name) however they may also contain within them several areas of development (including other Towns). Farrer makes this quite clear when he states that Leigh, the town, mostly exists in the township of Pennington. Do you understand how rolling back the existence of Leigh Municipal Borough in 1974 would not change the existence of Leigh town in the Pennington township?
Basically you dispute the existence of Leigh as a town. Just as you dispute the existence of St Helens as a town. Do we see a recurring theme here? To suggest that the 1974 act somehow miraculously rolled back into the ether the town that is built around Chapel Street / St Helens Road / Twist Ln is patently absurd. Koncorde (talk) 00:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

See above: "I accept that Leigh was the name of a parish, but the 'towns' are Westleigh, Pennington, Bedford and Atherton. Leigh was disbanded in 1974, just the same as the Wigan County Borough was. The Wigan County Borough wasn't a town, it was two towns, Wigan and Pemberton. Two towns, one authority (borough). St.Helens was three and a half towns, one authority (borough" Aaaaagh! Disbanded? What type of English is that? Wrong word. Wikipedia-geek speak — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.101.8.128 (talk) 13:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Component area?

What on earth is a component area? Leigh is a town. That's what it was when I lived there - a town with a town hall, not a component area hall. Please don't put the phrase back onto the page without discussing it here first. --Cheesy Mike 23:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

LEIGH is not a 'town'. Leigh is an 'Former Municipal Borough', comprising of more than one town. The Local Government Act 1972 abolished Leigh, and the towns contained in Leigh were placed under the authority of Wigan council, which meant that they were then in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan (Wigan council's area of authority). Leigh, therefore, does not exist and hasn't done since the Local Government Act 1972 came into force in 1974. 92.239.71.235 (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

If anyone ever didn't suspect Jemmy of being as mad as a bag of spiders....Leigh no longer exists. Evaporated from existence. Just like that, in 1974. Gone, forever, no more Leigh. That thing you drive through between Hindley Green and Astley Green - just a figment of your imagination. Koncorde (talk) 07:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


Leigh qualifies as a town according to the wikipedia List of towns in England. End of discussion IMHO. Michaelward82 (talk) 00:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Pennington Hall

The following section in the Leigh entry may require amending:-

The Pennington family owned Pennington Hall from about 1200 until they were replaced by the family of Bradshaw or Bradshaigh in 1312.[6] The Bradshaws held the manor until 1703 when John, the last of the male line died. Pennington Hall was rebuilt in 1748 by the then owner Samuel Hilton and in 1807 sold to the Gaskell family of Thornes, Wakefield, who let it to a succession of tenants.[6] Around 1840 James Pownall, one of the founder members of the silk manufacturing firm of Bickam and Pownall was tenant. Later occupants were Charles Jackson, cotton manufacturer, Jabez Johnson, and F.W. Bouth founder of Bouth's Mill in 1862, The last resident was brewer, George Shaw who in 1920 offered the hall and grounds to the Leigh Corporation. The hall was converted to a museum and art gallery in 1928 but was demolished in 1963. The grounds are now Pennington Park.

George Shaw died 22 June 1918. He is buried at Leigh Cemetery (5.B.4.) Not sure whether the Pennington Hall gift was referred to in his will. Further confirmation of his date of death can be found in the probate record.

SHAW George (Probate Record, 19 August 1918)

Of Pennington Hall, Leigh, Lancashire, brewer, died 22 June 1918 at the Prince of Wales Hotel, Lord-street, Southport, Lancashire. Probate, Liverpool, 19 August to Walter Herbert Eckersley, cotton spinner, and William Higenbottam, company director and secretary. Effects £200,001. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.7.4 (talk) 13:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Details corrected; the hall and grounds were gifted to the people by George Shaw and Co Ltd, in Dec 1919. The details are in the Town Hall minutes and mentioned in an article in the Leigh Chronicle, on 8 April 1949. Richard Harvey (talk) 14:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

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Lead image

Commons has a total of 92 images in the Category: Leigh, Greater Manchester (as well as 12 others of the parish church), but we are stuck with an image with a distant view of the church, a side view of the pub and a colourfull collection of recycling bins behind a cast-iron fence? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:54, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

What a relief. The new image is about 100 times better, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

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"Northern General Service Hangar, South Road, Hooton, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire West and Chester"?? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

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First one OK. But second one produces: "Page cannot be displayed due to robots.txt." Martinevans123 (talk) 09:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit wars are a great way to get an external website blacklisted on wikipedia

Several people have been involved in an edit war today in this article following a forum post on the Leigh Life website. These people continually added the website into the external links section, despite the fact that it had been removed before because it contravened Wikipedia's external links guidelines - WP:LINKSTOAVOID. Unfortunately the edit war resulted in one users being permanently banned from Wikipedia and the Leigh Life site permanently blacklisted so editors will never be able to edit again. I wish people could turn the effort they put into this rather sad episode into making positive contributions. Leigh is a fantastic town and deserves to have a Wikipedia article which reflects that. Let's all work together to add information to this article and show people that Leigh is the finest town in Lancashire. (It was Lanchashire when I was born there, Lanchashire when my parents, grandparents, and generations of my family before them were born, so to me it will always be in Lancashire - but that's an edit war for another day...)

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