Talk:Lensidede

Border

@Pinatyaimi: are you sure about a border dispute for this island/village? First I thought all islands in the border rivers are always Surinamese since 1817. If you look at Google Maps, it looks like a Surinamese island too. Ymnes (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I found it now, I'm sorry for the ping. Ymnes (talk) 17:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Although I still have doubt. Everywhere north the islands are Surinamese as well and the disputed area is much more southwards. Ymnes (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Ymnes By the looks of things, it is a disputed island, however in March 2021, all 950 (!) disputed islands in Marowijne/Lawa River were finally demarcated. I have no idea where we can find the list, but it seems that this dispute has been settled as well Antecume Pata which also appeared disputed. Of course the Litani and Marouini thing remains unsolved for another century. KittenKlub (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Ref: Formalization of the border demarcation agreement between France and Suriname on the Maroni and Lawa Rivers. KittenKlub (talk) 10:56, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I think it has been awarded to Suriname, because it Ipomadi Pelenapin claims authority of the village.[1]. Antecume Pata which was founded by a Frenchman has probably been awarded to French Guiana, because Starnieuws calls it "Franse Wayanadorp".[2]

@KittenKlub: Thanks for the links. I think though, that the treaty should be published on-line to be sure. Ymnes (talk) 16:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

P.S. this particular information is not there, but for your information as a writer on Suriname, there is a growing number of sources to be found at nl:Wikipedia:Wikiproject/Suriname/Bronnen. Always good to know Ymnes (talk) 17:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Ymnes Thanks. Actually, I didn't know that list.KittenKlub (talk) 17:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

P.S. Vids.sr [3] has updated the village list with population estimates / captains. That's what actually brought me here today.KittenKlub (talk) 17:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@KittenKlub:@Ymnes: The full text of the protocol can be found here: https://www.dna.sr/media/330804/21_1437__Pres._Ch._Santokhi__aanb._overeenkomst_protocol_tussen_Rep._Suriname_en_Franse_Rep._op_de_regeling_van_de_Grens_tussen_Suriname_en_Frans_Guyana_verdrag_parijs_30sept.1915_tot_vaststellen_van_de_Grens.pdf Pinatyaimi (talk) 13:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Pinatyaimi You should post more, my friend. Artikel 2 - Lid 1 "Voorbeelden zijn Akalima, Jamaica, Lincedede (=Abunasunga), eilanden die ten oosten van de middellijn, in principe tot Frans grondgebied gerekend zouden moeten worden, maar waar de signatuur volledig Surinaams is. Quod Erat Demonstrantum! Chapeau :) KittenKlub (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! The Institut géographique national seems to have updated the Suriname-Guyane border according to the new protocol. The issue seems a bit more complicated than it may seem at first. See this map. There is a settlement called Abouna Sounga that has been clearly awarded to France, and a settlement at the southern tip of the island of Lessé Dedé that has been awared to Suriname. I'm out of depth here, I don't know which one of the settlements is actually the Wayana settlement... Pinatyaimi (talk) 14:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Abounga Sounga is probably the French spelling and Abunasunga the Sranan spelling (Dutch would be Aboenasoenga... but that one has not been seen yet) Lesse Dede Tabiki (with accents), so Lesse Dede / Lincedede / Linsedede etc. is the island. Vids.sr uses Lensidede and the info on this page relates to that entry. So there are 50 Wayana living on the island which belong to Suriname, and there's a village at the tip which seems to belong to France (inhabitated by Aluku? Wayana? both?). Man, this is confusing.KittenKlub (talk) 14:51, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps the easiest solution is to rename this article and the corresponding Dutch article to Lensidede. This is the name used by VIDS and is also the name on the IGN map if you use the coordinates of this article. The village of Abouna Sounga seems a different settlement further downstream, on another island, but just across the northern tip of Lessé Dedé Tabiki (Lensidede island). Perhaps Karin Boven was wrong when she wrote that Lensidede and Abunasunga are the same villages. Or perhaps the French use the name Abouna Sounga for a different settlement. Abunasunga seems to originally refer to the sula (rapids) further downstream, while Lensidede is the name of another sula further upstream. Pinatyaimi (talk) 14:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I know. Renaming would be better, however there is also the article by Karin Boven. I'm just glancing through it. "Kanailu nam overigens zijn intrek buiten het Wayanagebied, te midden van Aluku aan de ene kant en Ndyuka aan de andere kant. Abunasunga, ook wel bekend als Lensidede, werd hiermee het volgende uitzonderlijke Wayanadorp" That story might actually relate to the French village, because she also stated that it was usually considered part of France. KittenKlub (talk) 15:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but it seems Karin Boven never visited the settlement, and only met a Wayana and Aluku from the settlement in Paramaribo:

"Eén Wayanadorp springt er de laatste jaren uit: Abunasunga of Lensidede, het dorp van kapitein Kanailu, degene die zich in de jaren tachtig van Kawemhakan afscheidde (zie paragraaf 6.2.2). Abunasunga, in feite in Alukugebied gelegen, bevindt zich in een proces van vermenging tussen Wayana en Aluku. In juli 2004 ontmoette ik in Paramaribo twee jongemannen uit dit dorp; één was ontegenzeggelijk Wayana, de ander Aluku; beide mannen waren zwagers van elkaar en waren samen inkopen aan het doen in de stad. Onderling spraken ze een in elkaar overvloeiende mix van Aluku en Wayana. Het dorp, met circa veertig tot vijftig inwoners, heeft verder weliswaar nog altijd een typisch Wayanavoorkomen, compleet met tukusipan en maluana, maar de bevolking verandert qua uiterlijk (zie ook Boven 2007)."

Just so we're sure we're talking about the same thing, here are the coordinates of both villages:

The Wayana settlement of Lensidede (the subject of this article): 4°1′37″N 54°19′57″W

The French (Aluku?) settlement of Abouna Sounga (not the subject of this article, appears on IGN map): 4°3′34″N 54°21′38″W

Renaming this article Lensidede seems the easiest solution to me. Pinatyaimi (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Let's rename the story and cut the Karen story. Also the Aluku part can be cut, because that might not relate to Lensidede as well. Let's rename and cut the page (cry) KittenKlub (talk) 15:12, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

It's gone... There are still the redirects Abunasunga and Abouna Sounga which should be replaced by a little article, but that's for a rainy sunday ... KittenKlub (talk) 15:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for this! Just for the record: the village of Lensidede (4°1′37″N 54°19′57″W) indeed clearly shows some traditional Wayana houses on the IGN aerial photography (also available through Bing). The settlement identified as Abouna Sounga by IGN (4°3′34″N 54°21′38″W) does not feature such houses and looks Aluku/Maroon. Pinatyaimi (talk) 15:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@Pinatyaimi and KittenKlub: thank you both for your care! (the pings didn't work here for me). Ymnes (talk) 15:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

P.S. So Lensidede is Surinamese? Ymnes (talk) 15:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Ymnes 100% See dna link. It contains a signature by a certain Chan Santokhi and literally says that Lensidede belongs to Suriname. Abungasunga is ~90% French and Aluka, so that one is not completely proven.KittenKlub (talk) 16:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation! Ymnes (talk) 16:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)