Talk:Les Grandes Baigneuses (Renoir)

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French Wikipedia has a very nice article on this subject[edit]

Seems to be very well developed. If we translated we might be able to expand here. Just saying. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:59, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I put in a small excerpt for their excellent article. Merci. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Description[edit]

The first two sentences of the second-to-last paragraph in #Description are:

The Bathers may also be regarded as Renoir's pictorial testament. The models for the three bathers were his painter colleagues, the women standing in the stream in the background posed in the large. After completing The Large Bathers, Renoir received severe criticism because of his new style.

(a) There is already information earlier in the article about the models for the painting; I don't think "The models or the three bathers were his painter colleagues" is needed.

(b) "Posed in the large" does not make sense.

(c) Nowhere else in the article (unless I missed it) does it say The Large Bathers, so

(i) ~~To what does it refer? Should it be simply The Bathers? Or~~ should all the instances of The Bathers earlier in the article be changed to The Large Bathers? Sorry, just saw/remembered that it's at the beginning of the article, but not after that. To be consistent, the last mention of the painting should be just The Bathers, or all the instances of The Bathers should be changed to The Large Bathers; I recommend the former. Corinne (talk) 04:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(ii) Does it really mean "The large bathers"? Grandes could be translated "large" or it could be translated "great", "wonderful". Coldcreation What do you think?

(d) I think it would be interesting and helpful if we could learn from whom or what the negative criticism came. Corinne (talk) 04:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good points Corinne.

(a) "Colleagues" these models certainly were not. They were women who simply posed for Renoir, one of whom would become his wife and the other a painter who may have needed the money for her services (the third is unknown).

(b) Posed "in the large" is meaningless. They probably posed in his studio, rather outside (if that's what in the large refers to), since it took three years to complete the work.

(c) Not sure about this, but I suspect smaller versions of this painting exist (studies or other), or versions of a similar subject. To differentiate this painting from the others, and due to its large dimensions (115 cm × 170 cm), the French title included the word "Grande". Plus, as you note, "Grande" had several meanings. But titles of paintings need not be translated. I would simply keep the original French title throughout the text.

(d) The French article doesn't mention from who came the negative response to it's exhibition. I assume it came from the public, and possibly from art critics. If from the latter, articles could be found at Gallica - Bibliothèque nationale de France. I'll take a look. Coldcreation (talk) 07:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One negative reaction to Renoir's Grandes Baigneuses came from Camille Pissarro (according to Henri Perruchot, La vie de Renoir, page 218, 1964). I'll see what else I can find. Coldcreation (talk) 07:47, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

..."some of his Impressionist colleagues thought that with this work he had betrayed the cause of modernist painting by retreating to classicism". (Christopher Riopelle, Philadelphia Museum of Art: Handbook of the Collections (1995), p. 200). Coldcreation (talk) 08:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Coldcreation! I, too, was wondering why the painting was being discussed with an English title, but since it was there, I just left it. Corinne (talk) 15:23, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"in the stream in the background posed in the large" is a text fragment that also appears in the Musee d'Orsay's English description of their Renoir on a similar topic, also called "The Bathers" (see [1]) where in context it makes more sense "[the three bathers sporting] in the stream in the background posed in the large [garden full of olive trees]" Perhaps appearing here due to a faulty cut and paste? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.41 (talk) 18:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod I saw you had added a hidden note to the article visible only in edit mode asking what "posed in the large" meant. I didn't know if you had seen this discussion or not, so I thought I'd point you to it. See in particular my point (b) and response (b) below it. The last comment from the IP editor just above is also interesting and may be useful. Also, there was some additional discussion at Featured Pictures: [2]. I didn't know what to do, so I just left it. Corinne (talk) 02:16, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, I hadn't, thanks. Like Coldcreation, I think "large" may mean "outdoors", but can't be sure. Or the ISP may be right. I found the models bit confusing too. Really we need a decent English-language source & then just revise per that. Johnbod (talk) 02:53, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Painting[edit]

The first sentence of the second paragraph in Les Grandes Baigneuses (Renoir)#Painting is:

It is inspired at least in part by a sculpture by François Girardon (The Bath of the Nymphs (1672), a low lead relief realized for a fountain park of Versailles).

What does "a low lead relief" mean? I know what a relief is, but is this "lead" as in lead us forward or in the lead, or "lead" as in the element, the metal? Is it clear which meaning is meant? If not, perhaps this could be either linked or re-worded. Corinne (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is a sculpture, in low relief, made of lead (the metal). We have an image; see right.

Thanks! That's beautiful! (Just a reminder: don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~.) For a reader who has not seen that image, or is unfamiliar with reliefs made of metal, do you think "a low lead relief" is clear enough? Or should we word it something like "a low relief made in lead", and link "lead" to the article on the metal? Corinne (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Identity of Models[edit]

Source (4) given for identification of models says nothing on the subject. Valadon is often said to be the model for the figure in left foreground and sometimes the splashing girl on the right but I'm not sure what the evidence is. There used to be a drawing that was the exact image of the head of the splashing girl attributed to Renoir and displayed at the Bundox Restaurant (not to be confused with the current Bundox Bocce Restaurant)in Reno, NV. The owners were a couple named Loomis. During the eighties the drawing was used as a logo for the restaurant in local newspaper ads. I never found anything in print about this drawing, which has the closest resemblance to any of the GB figures that I have seen, but most of my research was done in pre-internet days. The "Head of a Young Woman" in the Minneapolis Institute of Art collection looks like it could have been modeled by the same person around the same time.137.70.164.228 (talk) 21:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]