Talk:List of Colorado Avalanche seasons

Merger Discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Request received to merge articles: List of Quebec Nordiques seasons into List of Colorado Avalanche seasons; dated: May 2023.

Proposer's Rationale: The NHL and Wikipedia consider these teams to be the same franchise. Any individual or team records are considered to be from the same franchise along with playoff matchups. The proposal will also make this inline with MLB, NBA, and NFL teams' seasons' articles. The following articles would be affected as well:

• List of Minnesota North Stars seasons
• List of Atlanta Thrashers seasons
• List of Atlanta Flames seasons
• List of Hartford Whalers seasons

Finally teams that have their season list in the main article would also be merged into their current iteration:

• List of Arizona Coyotes seasons to include Winnipeg Jets (1972–1996)#Season–by–season_record

Discuss here. Conyo14 (talk) 16:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the merger. Seems to make sense. Masterhatch (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

The same franchises, so no objections. GoodDay (talk) 21:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

What difference does it make if the NHL "consider these teams to be the same franchise"? (What "Wikipedia" "considers" is secondary...) "The franchise" is not some immutable thing that takes any particular precedence over how we as Wikipedia editors are free to organize things. Spilling digital ink to keep these as separate articles is no big thing.

If you were to believe the NHL's word as gospel, the Nordiques, Jets, Whalers and Oilers were created ex novo and their WHA histories are entirely irrelevant. The NHL owners were partisans who detested their "major league" competitor and had no particular interest in recognizing the WHA as having any "legitimacy" at all; that doesn't mean we as Wikipedians have to follow. In point of fact, history showed that: no, these were the same "franchises" that just happened to shift from one league affiliation to another. The NHL called it an "expansion"; it doesn't mean it really was an expansion, and all we as Wikipedians are meant to do is write a neutral account of what happened. With unbiased eyes and the clarity of mind to take more than NHL dictates (i.e. secondary sources) into consideration, we can quite plainly see that the Nordiques, Jets, Whalers and Oilers did in fact exist as going concerns before they ever played in the NHL. And so we do recognize that they did exist.

The "individual and team records" are entirely irrelevant. "Making this inline with MLB, NBA, and NFL teams' seasons' articles" is entirely irrelevant. They may have been the same "franchise", but they pulled up stakes and moved from their original places of business to somewhere else entirely, and called themselves entirely different names. A "Quebec Nordiques season" is quite plainly not a "Colorado Avalanche season": before 1995, the Colorado Avalanche did not exist. After 1995 the Quebec Nordiques, such as they were, did not exist. Same goes for all the other proposed moves.

Taking this line of thinking to its conclusion, why don't you propose to merge California Golden Seals#Season-by-season_record into List of Dallas Stars seasons? Why not merge Victoria Cougars#Seasons into List of Detroit Red Wings seasons? Hamilton Tigers#Season-by-season record into New York Americans#Season-by-season record? Portland Rosebuds (ice hockey)#Season-by-season record into List of Chicago Blackhawks seasons?

List of Arizona Coyotes seasons does not need to include Winnipeg Jets (1972–1996)#Season–by–season_record: there's a header in the table prior to the 1996-97 season that says "Relocated from Winnipeg". Likewise for List of Carolina Hurricanes seasons, List of Colorado Avalanche seasons, List of Dallas Stars seasons, List of Calgary Flames seasons, etc...

If anything, perhaps the argument is better made to simply merge List of Atlanta Flames seasons into Atlanta Flames#Season-by-season record, and List of Atlanta Thrashers seasons into Atlanta Thrashers#Season-by-season record. I'm not sure eight and eleven seasons really merit separate articles, whereas 25ish years' worth of Jets, Nordiques and Whalers hockey probably merits it. CplDHicks2 (talk) 23:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Just so you're aware, I would be separating the two locations with a banner. Similar to List of Los Angeles Dodgers seasons or List of Oklahoma City Thunder seasons. Conyo14 (talk) 00:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Which seems silly, frankly. More than half those tables are not what the article titles purport them to be. I have to scroll halfway down those pages to find a Los Angeles Dodger season and an Oklahoma City Thunder season. CplDHicks2 (talk) 01:46, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@CplDHicks2: AFAIK, the NFL & CFL don't handle franchise histories, the way many other sports do. For example, the Baltimore Ravens aren't considered a continuation of the Cleveland Browns. But rather the 'new' Cleveland Browns are considered a continuation of the previous incarnation of the Cleveland Browns. Same situation in the CFL, concerning the Montreal Alouettes, who are considered a continuation of the two previous incarnations of the Montreal Alouettes, rather then a continuation of the Baltimore Stallions. GoodDay (talk) 14:06, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, and what this has to do with anything.

My overarching point is this: did the Colorado Avalanche win the Avco Trophy in 1977? Unless the answer is an unequivocal 'yes', why would one merge List of Quebec Nordiques seasons with List of Colorado Avalanche seasons? CplDHicks2 (talk) 15:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay: To be fair, the city of Cleveland requested the NFL retain the Browns' history when the NFL expanded back to Cleveland. Essentially, the Ravens' history is equivalent to an expansion franchise, whereas Cleveland prefers to see it like an Ottawa Senators (original) situation where they suspended operations for at least a season.

@CplDHicks2: I'm definitely not considering the city's accomplishments prior to becoming an NHL franchise. That history will remain untouched, but can still be included into the merged article. The two lists (WHA and NHL) are separated and will stay that way. Of course, those seasons' lists can be included into their main articles. Also, there would be a blurb about how the WHA seasons list was ONLY with the Quebec Nordiques, similar to the Winnipeg Jets (1972–1996) and Hartford Whalers. Something else I'd like to point is that the Atlanta Flames and Hartford Whalers main articles include the entire season-by-season record. Thus, this merger would also reduce redundancy. Conyo14 (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Why would you mention anything about the Quebec Nordiques' seasons in an article called "List of Colorado Avalanche seasons"? There is no such thing as a "Colorado Avalanche season" prior to 1995-96. Why would you include seasons which are not Colorado Avalanche seasons in an article about Colorado Avalanche seasons? CplDHicks2 (talk) 19:53, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The Nordiques/Avalanche franchise won the Avco Cup. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

No, the Colorado Avalanche won jack squat prior to 1995, because prior to 1995 they did not exist. CplDHicks2 (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Same franchise, Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver in 1995 & assumed the name Colorado Avalanche. GoodDay (talk) 20:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Right, the Quebec Nordiques ceased to exist in 1995, and the Colorado Avalanche came into existence in 1995. Accordingly, there are no "Quebec Nordiques seasons" after the "1994-95 Quebec Nordiques season", nor do any "Colorado Avalanche seasons" exist prior to the "1995-96 Colorado Avalanche season". So, why would I as a Wikipedia reader go to an article titled "List of Colorado Avalanche seasons" to find seasons which, by definition, were not "Colorado Avalanche seasons"? CplDHicks2 (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

They didn't cease to exist, they relocated and changed their name. Same franchise, different name and city. Conyo14 (talk) 23:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

They relocated and changed name, thus they ceased to exist. Again: there was no "1995-96 Quebec Nordiques season", and conversely there was no "1994-95 Colorado Avalanche season". There was no such team at the time, nor at any time before 1995.

You've concocted a solution in search of a problem. There are no Colorado Avalanche seasons prior to 1995-96, thus adding Quebec Nordiques seasons to this table is completely unnecessary and, on the face of it, patently erroneous. There's already a banner at the top of the table that reads "Relocated from Quebec"; what about this isn't already perfectly concise and easily navigable? Merging List of Quebec Nordiques seasons into this article does nothing but appeal to an irrelevant sense of "the franchise". Quite plainly there is no place in this article for any season that a team called the Colorado Avalanche, contesting home games out of Denver, did not participate in: by definition anything else is not "a Colorado Avalanche season". CplDHicks2 (talk) 03:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me your argument is based on mostly on personal preference, which as a reader I'm sure it's fine. Considering you are at a 3–1 deficit, I suggest finding some troops to your cause. I will also provide some references: [1], [2] note that in this reference, Dale Hunter holds the most consecutive games played, even though he was a Nordique, [3], [4], [5], etc. I could do this with the other teams too. I am certain there is a majority of sources that concur about this, nay, a consensus on this.

Calling on @Deadman137, Oknazevad, Ravenswing, Old Naval Rooftops, Sbaio, The Kip, Randy Kryn, BilCat, Nemov, Skipple, and Dmoore5556: to comment. I will only proceed with the merge after the Stanley Cup Finals have ended. Conyo14 (talk) 05:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Likewise it seems your argument is based entirely on personal preference... *sigh* Thanks for the references, I guess? I'm not sure what you're trying to assert with them other than "the Quebec Nordiques were sold to interests that moved the team to Denver and renamed it 'Colorado Avalanche' in 1995." No one is arguing that wasn't the case; I was around in 1995, I remember it happening. I've repeatedly reasserted that that happened.

I don't know how to articulate my overarching point any simpler to you. It's pretty straightforward. That you're so doggedly blind to it is absolutely baffling to me.

I can see now based on your tone and belief that I need to "rally troops" to my "cause" that you never intended to actually discuss this, but rather always intended to "fight" about it... I guess I shouldn't be surprised. CplDHicks2 (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

"Doggedly blind?" I mean, you're basically claiming they're two different franchises that deserve their own list. The topic of all sports seasons lists on Wikipedia is "List of Franchise's seasons." The teams I intend to merge are the same franchise. You've presented your argument. I just don't see the need for two separate articles. Conyo14 (talk) 07:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, "doggedly blind", because even now you've invented an argument I didn't make and clearly still don't understand the point I've been making all along. "You're basically claiming they're two different franchises that deserve their own list" is categorically FALSE, that's NOT what I've been arguing at all. *facepalm* I didn't claim anything about them being "two different franchises": all along I've been saying "the franchise" is irrelevant.

Go back up to my first reply and re-read it very carefully. I wrote, "'The franchise' is not some immutable thing that takes any particular precedence over how we as Wikipedia editors are free to organize things. Spilling digital ink to keep these as separate articles is no big thing." This does not have to be consolidated into one article, and you've not presented a single argument in favour of consolidation other than "They're the same franchise and this is how 'Wikipedia' does things."

All along I've been saying that the topic of this article is "List of <sports team B> seasons", and by definition if "<sports team B>" didn't exist prior to "<sports team A>" being sold, renamed and moved to a different place of operations, then "<sports team A> seasons" don't belong in this list. That they're the same "franchise" does not matter one iota. If I'm John Q. Public looking for a list of seasons contested by the sports team called "Quebec Nordiques", rerouting me to "List of Colorado Avalanche seasons" is misleading and does not aid comprehension whatsoever. [EDIT: Conversely, if I'm looking for a list of seasons contested by the sports team called "Colorado Avalanche", having the first half of the list be seasons contested by a sports team called "Quebec Nordiques" isn't what I was looking for either.] That said, that they are the same "franchise" is also not lost on the reader because there's a header at the very top of the table that says "Relocated from Quebec", and a corresponding footer at the bottom of the table at List of Quebec Nordiques seasons that reads "Relocated to Colorado".

As far as I can tell the only reason you want to do this is you just don't like the status quo and want to push a merger through based on a flimsy appeal to a false consensus that "the NHL" and "Wikipedia" have decided this is how things must be done. CplDHicks2 (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not sure why I'm pinged here. I'm far from a Hockey expert, but the arguments here seem to fit other sports projects. I support the merger because it's the same franchise. The Atlanta Braves started in Boston and moved to Milwaukee before finally arriving in Atlanta. They won the World Series in Boston, Milwaukee, and Atlanta. Those titles and the 150+ year history of the franchise are celebrated in Atlanta. There are a few exceptions to this practice, but I haven't seen one presented in this case. Nemov (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Similarly to Nemov, I'm not sure why I am pinged here as I don't recall having any involvement and am rarely involved in ice hockey related topics, but I have to support the merge and redirect. Unless we are talking about two separate franchises, I fail to see why there would be two separate articles. I would advise, however, that everyone refrain from personal attacks here. - Skipple ☎ 18:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I have a suspicion as to why you were pinged... CplDHicks2 (talk) 23:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Hey! I didn't know what side anyone would take on this. Frankly, I could have been on my own here. So, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from personal attacks. I just wanted more opinions on the matter. Conyo14 (talk) 23:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I mean... did you really? Because you've got a couple people here who've led off with "I don't even know why you pinged me", but have 'stacked' your 'vote' nonetheless. It sure looks kind of selective on your part. CplDHicks2 (talk) 23:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@CplDHicks2 you are free to create a RfC on this subject if you wish, but if you do, the entire Hockey project would likely be notified. You have made your argument here repeatedly. It might be wise to listen to multiple editors who are commenting here in good faith. Nemov (talk) 01:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh I don't doubt you are here in good faith (although you and Skipple both admitted you're commenting out of ignorance; certainly you have to have some self-awareness here and understand why a level of skepticism is warranted when people say "I don't even know why I'm here, but..."). Otherwise I have had nothing but a strawman argument thrown back at me, which doesn't engender much good faith.

It's also blatantly disingenuous for people to accuse me of personal attacks and of failing to assume good faith. That in and of itself is demonstrable of other people's failure to assume I'm here in good faith. It's a two-way street fellas, and so far I ain't feeling it. I'm not even heard, let alone listened to. CplDHicks2 (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm missing where either of us said we were ignorant on the subject. - Skipple ☎ 12:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

"I'm not sure why I'm pinged here. I'm far from a Hockey expert," and "I'm not sure why I am pinged here as I don't recall having any involvement and am rarely involved in ice hockey related topics"...? CplDHicks2 (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Neither of those quotes mean we're ignorant. They are acknowledgments that we're not involved in this project. If you were assuming good faith we wouldn't be having this conversation. Nemov (talk) 17:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I did assume you're here in good faith. I said as much. You yourself said you're unaware of why you were asked to participate in this discussion, and that you're "not a hockey expert". Lacking knowledge and awareness is, by definition, ignorance. Why are you assuming I'm here in bad faith? CplDHicks2 (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

It's clear discussing this further is a waste of time. Nemov (talk) 17:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ CplDHicks2 (talk) 19:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. Proposer's Rationale: The NHL and Wikipedia consider these teams to be the same franchise. Opening sentence from Quebec Nordiques: "The Quebec Nordiques ... were a professional ice hockey team" (emphasis mine); from Colorado Avalanche: "The Colorado Avalanche ... are a professional ice hockey team" (em). We are arguing on the basis that the franchise is the same and therefore deserves a single Seasons article. But we don't write articles about franchises, we write articles about teams. I support CplHicks2's arguments on the simple basis that the Avalanche did not play in the WHA, the Nordiques did not win the President's Trophy, etc. At the risk of raising the spectre of other stuff, presumably there is a reason we have separate articles for the Avalanche and Nordiques in the first place. We also have List of Quebec Nordiques head coaches and List of Colorado Avalanche head coaches, List of Quebec Nordiques players and List of Colorado Avalanche players, and so on. (the only such article they seem to share is for GMs, as it's a short list even when combined, I assume?) It makes no sense to have separate articles for the teams, yet argue that they share the same franchise and therefore the seasons articles alone need to be merged. Echoedmyron (talk) 12:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  I'd be willing to merge those articles as well. Conyo14 (talk) 14:20, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  So you'd put Réal Cloutier, Marc Tardif and Peter Stastny in List of Colorado Avalanche players...? CplDHicks2 (talk) 17:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, same with Dino Ciccarelli in List of Dallas Stars players, Dale Hawerchuk in List of Arizona Coyotes players, and Ilya Kovalchuk in List of Winnipeg Jets players. Conyo14 (talk) 18:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Just so we're clear: you do know that it's factually untrue that any of those players played for those teams, right? Like... you do understand that? CplDHicks2 (talk) 19:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  I'm aware they played for the Colorado Avalanche franchise, but not the team known as the Colorado Avalanche (etc. to the other teams). Conyo14 (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  To use cars as an analogy, to me that's like saying "AMC Gremlin belongs in List of Chrysler vehicles". CplDHicks2 (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  I have made my argument. I refuse to say more (EDIT: "more"). Conyo14 (talk) 20:31, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose merge based on arguments by Echoedmyron and CplDHicks2. Other editors seem to confuse team and franchise, which is not the same. – sbaio 16:52, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think WP:MERGEREASON provides some good criteria for whether a merge should take place; I don't think this meets that criteria as separate teams in the same franchise are distinct enough for their own articles. (See also WP:NOTMERGE 2.) I also appreciate Echoedmyron's arguments about List of Quebec Nordiques head coaches, etc. This merge would open a can of worms that just isn't worth it. Wracking ^talk! 03:49, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as well, because, yes, it's the same franchise, but it makes sense to have separate articles for the different iterations of the franchise after a move. I don't see any issue with separate articles. Jmj713 (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose They are reasonable standalone articles. I don't see any benefit to merging them. If they were merged it would make it harder for readers to find what they are looking for. --Killashaw (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose They may be the same franchise but they are separate teams. There is no benefit to merging them and many problems if merged. -DJSasso (talk) 12:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see any reason why we can't break out franchises to specific periods of time a franchise existed in a specific city. It doesn't need to be a hard and fast rule, either, and is probably context dependent. SportingFlyer T·C 23:26, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Heavier Argument

So, I have decided to dig deeper into the franchises listed to gain some reliable sourcing on why these franchises/teams also share stats, players, coaches, and season lists.

Quebec Nordiques/Colorado Avalanche:

• [6]
• [7]
• [8]
• [9]
• [10]

Minnesota North Stars/Dallas Stars:

• [11]
• [12]
• [13]
• [14]
• [15]
• [16] See list at the bottom.
• [17]
• [18]

The others are the same sources. The main thing I ask is why do List of NHL playoff series include the original franchise postseason matchups? Conyo14 (talk) 19:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Bigger Discussion?

With an opposition being greater I will call into question why WP:MLB, WP:BASKETBALL, and WP:AMF conjoin their relocated franchises.

The question is: Shall professionally relocated sports teams receive separate articles for their players, coaches, management, stats, and seasons lists, or is WP:HOCKEY the exception? This is a question (may become an RfC) I shall pose at WT:SPORTS. Conyo14 (talk) 19:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

For MLB the franchises, there is one article, but there can be separate history of articles. For example, there's articles for old teams like New York Giants, Brooklyn Dodgers, and Boston Braves. Nemov (talk) 19:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The relevant discussion is now available at WT:SPORTS here. Conyo14 (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Survey End

As the proposer, I view this Merger as Oppose. Although my argument had a foundation, more editors did not see the need for the merged articles on basis of separate teams as stand-alone articles work. I will change the formatting on some of the articles to make them cleaner. Also, if I find that these teams choose not view their past in their present teams, I'll add why they didn't their main article. I will remove the merge requests from the articles tomorrow. Cheers! Conyo14 (talk) 03:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.