Talk:List of Major League Soccer players with 100 or more goals

WP:OVERLINK

Just addressing my reverting of Walter Görlitz edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Major_League_Soccer_players_with_100_or_more_goals&oldid=886244722) around WP:OVERLINK. The template flagdeco, does not indicate the country of the flag. I.e. I did not recognise the Sierra Leone flag, and had no way as a reader to find that out by the image alone in this article.

I have reverted to the previous version, which also cut out an update provided by AmericanSoccer10.

The documentation of flagdeco also states this is to be used with plain text or some other way of interpreting the country for accessibility. Borgarde (talk) 10:57, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:OVERLINK states "The names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar—unless there is a contextually important reason to link

"This generally includes major examples of geographic features" and nations are geographic features. You're probably right that it shouldn't be flagdeco though, but flagicon is clearly an overlink. Mobile devices can't hover and screen readers used by the blind are not helped by the linking. We will have to come to a happy medium and the start is not linking. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:51, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: I included the "Flagicon" because using the "Flagdeco" does not allow you to sort by nationality within the table. What flag would be the proper one to use in order to sort by nationality? I looked at other pages similar to this (Serie A, La Liga, etc.) and they all use the "flagicon" in order to be sorted. AmericanSoccer10 (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

on a mobile phone like I am on now it allows me to click to Sierra Leone which I can't recognise. Either link it OR have text to indicate country. Or get rid of it. Borgarde (talk) 04:01, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

First, AmericanSoccer10 has no understanding or respect for accessibility guidelines. You have shown that here by ignoring MOS:INDENTGAP. Do not leave spaces between your reply and the one that went before it and do indent correctly.

Second, I don't care how wrong other articles are. Did you not understand that this is a MOS:ACCESS issue?

Borgarde, try hovering on a mobile phone. How's that work for you? If you want to know the nation without actually clicking, you can't. You then lose stickyness. You have to use the back button (or open the link in a new tab).

Finally how does this address OVERLINK? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:46, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: What's your issue? I asked what would be a reasonable way to put the flag so readers can sort by nationality. I've seen you reply to other users many times and you're always rude to every single one of them. Why is it so hard for you to communicate with people without being disrespectful? Instead of insulting people, why don't you teach them? AmericanSoccer10 (talk) 04:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

First, there's no need to ping me. This article is on my watchlist.

Second, why don't you read what I wrote? I explain the issues.

I'm sure there's a way to include nationality correctly so that a reader can sort by nationality, but it's not a primary need.

Why is so hard for you to address the issues of ACCESS and OVERLINK? Perhaps your desire to sort by nationality is more important than either of those. Feel to explain why. I expect people to click on links to guidelines and manuals of style that are provided. By reading those, they should understand them. If they have questions about them in relation to articles, they can be asked here and they will be answered. Not addressing them and instead stating their need to sort by nationality is more important is probably why you don't learn about the other issue. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Absolutely no need to rude when someone disagrees with your perspective on this. You have left a flag under a category called Nation which does not allow for the user to understand what country that flag is. It is very simple what the perspective of myself is there. I do not expect anyone to know what flags are what for every country in the world. If the flag is there it needs to indicate either linking or in writing what it is. Otherwise, remove the flags entirely. I have read the link you provided and do not think you are correct on this. Overlinking a written name like Sierra Leone I wouldn't dispute you on, but a flag which has no other indication what country it is not the same thing. Borgarde (talk) 06:25, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not being rude.

Feel free to explain how to address ACCESS.

Feel free to explain how to address OVERLINK for United States (and the WP:REPEATLINK thereof) and Canada. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:51, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

You are being rude, you are discouraging other participants from engaging in this project. It is evident in your edits and summaries, e.g. your edit on the MOS:ACCESS page in relation to two editors disagreeing with your point of view indicating we are getting 'knotted knickers'.

I don't see what in ACCESS or OVERLINK supports your point of removing alt-text and a link to an image that is not purely decorative. If it was purely decorative there would be no column specifically outlining the nation of the player in question. If anything this is making it accessible, and removing the link and text is making it unaccessible. The overlinking part can be addressed by adding text as per my next point. However, in a table this may be considered acceptable according to the same guideline.

For US or Canada, I may recognise those flags but not everyone does. What would I do? I would either leave it the way it is - i.e. the flag linked, or add plain text so the reader can identify what country the player is from (i.e. United States in player list articles). Alternatively, if the nation is not relevant to the context of this list, just get rid of the column, however I do not think that is the case here as the body of text is referring to nationality. Borgarde (talk) 08:06, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not being rude. I'm being firm with someone who just doesn't get it. No name calling. No swearing. Not rude.

You clearly doen't understand either ACCESS or OVERLINK then. Try reading them again and explaining how they are satisfied by your edits. Do not rely on "good articles" or other articles either. Focus on the guidelines and explain how a visually impaired visitor is helped not by my edit (because it's no better) but by using the flag without any text. Feel free to compare a roster from a Major League Soccer team to one of the European teams to see the difference between how flags are used to identify nationality. Both of those examples fail on the OVERLINK front though. The subjects do not represent those nations in the clubs and so there's no need to link to those nations. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:15, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I think my interpretation of this guideline is fine and I do not need to be lectured. I think an image of a flag in a column specifying "nation" with no way to know what nation that is, is not acceptable.

My preference is some form of text in the actual column so the reader can clearly understand the nation stated. The text can be linked or not at all, I am not concerned about that. If it is decided to be linked, it can then be linked once only if that satisfies your interpretation of OVERLINK. Borgarde (talk) 08:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

@Borgarde and Walter Görlitz: There are two accessibility issues at play here: (1) The lack of alt text on {{flagdeco}} for screen readers; and (2) using an image to convey information that may not be obvious to the reader.

Assuming that you don't want to use {{flagicon}} because links to the article about the country are particularly worthless in this context, I've upgraded {{flagdeco/sandbox}} to provide alt text and a title attribute. That will allow screen readers and users with mice to hear or see on hover the text of the country name like this:

• {{Flagdeco/sandbox|USA}} →
• {{Flagdeco/sandbox|BUL}} →

Here's a copy of the table from List of Major League Soccer players with 100 or more goals using {{flagdeco/sandbox}}:

Place	Nation	Name	Goals	Appearances	Average	Years	Clubs
1		Landon Donovan	145	340	.43	2001–2014 2016	113 LA Galaxy 32 San Jose Earthquakes
2		Chris Wondolowski	144	327	.44	2005–present	140 San Jose Earthquakes 4 Houston Dynamo
3		Jeff Cunningham	134	365	.37	1998–2011	64 Columbus Crew, 12 Colorado Rapids, 19 Real Salt Lake, 6 Toronto FC, 33 FC Dallas
4		Jaime Moreno	133	340	.39	1996–2010	131 D.C. United 2 MetroStars
5		Ante Razov	114	262	.43	1996–2009	1 LA Galaxy, 76 Chicago Fire, 1 Columbus Crew, 6 MetroStars, 30 Chivas USA
6		Kei Kamara	113	315	.36	2006–2013 2015–present	32 Columbus Crew, 2 San Jose Earthquakes, 7 Houston Dynamo, 38 Sporting Kansas City, 19 New England Revolution, 14 Vancouver Whitecaps FC, 1 Colorado Rapids
7		Jason Kreis	108	305	.35	1996–2007	91 Dallas Burn 17 Real Salt Lake
8		Bradley Wright-Phillips	106	171	.62	2013–present	106 New York Red Bulls
9		Dwayne De Rosario	104	343	.30	2001–2014	27 San Jose Earthquakes, 24 Houston Dynamo, 28 Toronto FC, 2 New York Red Bulls, 23 D.C. United
10		Taylor Twellman	101	174	.58	2002–2010	101 New England Revolution
11		Edson Buddle	100	304	.33	2001–2015	42 Columbus Crew, 6 New York Red Bulls, 45 LA Galaxy, 7 Colorado Rapids

You'll see that it can now be sorted on the Nation field, and that the flags have text available on hover as well as alt text (which they must have because they are informative, not decorative).

Unfortunately that still leaves out anybody using a touch screen (no hover) or keyboard only. I recommend therefore that you should follow the icon by the name of the nation in plain text. If you can get consensus for that, then the changes to {{flagdeco}} are not necessary (although still useful, I think).

Otherwise, if you think that this is a useful upgrade for {{flagdeco}}, I'll happily update the main template after raising the issue on its talk page. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 16:58, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you RexxS. The changes are a worthwhile improvement to flagdeco. Not sure if editors have elected to use it because it does not have any alt text or the ability to sort, but this is helpful for this situation. Perhaps we need a non-linked flag option that also includes the nation name or at least the nation's ISO value. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words, Walter. It has since occurred to me that that if I update {{flagdeco}}, then if it's used as its documentation recommends (next to the text of the name of the nation), a screen reader will read out the name twice. The template {{flagdeco}} seems to be usable only as a decorative image, i.e. it cannot have alt text. I agree we really need another option, though, for cases like this where we want to convey information without having a link. This is one possibility for the code, but I think we'd need a new template name. Maybe {{flaginfo}}?

Here's a copy of the table from List of Major League Soccer players with 100 or more goals using {{flagdeco/sandbox1}}:

Place	Nation	Name	Goals	Appearances	Average	Years	Clubs
1	United States	Landon Donovan	145	340	.43	2001–2014 2016	113 LA Galaxy 32 San Jose Earthquakes
2	United States	Chris Wondolowski	144	327	.44	2005–present	140 San Jose Earthquakes 4 Houston Dynamo
3	United States	Jeff Cunningham	134	365	.37	1998–2011	64 Columbus Crew, 12 Colorado Rapids, 19 Real Salt Lake, 6 Toronto FC, 33 FC Dallas
4	Bolivia	Jaime Moreno	133	340	.39	1996–2010	131 D.C. United 2 MetroStars
5	United States	Ante Razov	114	262	.43	1996–2009	1 LA Galaxy, 76 Chicago Fire, 1 Columbus Crew, 6 MetroStars, 30 Chivas USA
6	Sierra Leone	Kei Kamara	113	315	.36	2006–2013 2015–present	32 Columbus Crew, 2 San Jose Earthquakes, 7 Houston Dynamo, 38 Sporting Kansas City, 19 New England Revolution, 14 Vancouver Whitecaps FC, 1 Colorado Rapids
7	United States	Jason Kreis	108	305	.35	1996–2007	91 Dallas Burn 17 Real Salt Lake
8	England	Bradley Wright-Phillips	106	171	.62	2013–present	106 New York Red Bulls
9	Canada	Dwayne De Rosario	104	343	.30	2001–2014	27 San Jose Earthquakes, 24 Houston Dynamo, 28 Toronto FC, 2 New York Red Bulls, 23 D.C. United
10	United States	Taylor Twellman	101	174	.58	2002–2010	101 New England Revolution
11	United States	Edson Buddle	100	304	.33	2001–2015	42 Columbus Crew, 6 New York Red Bulls, 45 LA Galaxy, 7 Colorado Rapids

That has a purely decorative flag icon, but conveys the information from the associated text. There's no alt text so screen readers only read the name once, and it's sortable on Nation. Is that the sort of thing you think we could get consensus for? --RexxS (talk) 19:43, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Brilliant. The other issue is the breaks in the cells. For those who don't know, breaks in a cell are treated like a new line to many screen readers. Since it's at the end of a line, it might be OK. Need some input from an actual user of a screen reader. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

@RexxS thank you for taking the time to look at this, this addresses my concerns completely. The text is there and readable and it not a purely decorative image that is useless in the way it was added by Walter. Borgarde (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2019 (UTC)