Talk:List of The Sopranos episodes/Archive 1

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Episode Guide Basics

I've produced a couple of episode articles now. Just wanted to ask for a few pointers

  • Is it standard to always link up the guest starring actors even when there is no article to link to?
  • Would it be preferable to link the guest characters to the character guide where possible?
  • What are the rules for who gets mentioned as a first appearance? (I understand it should be their first episode and they should be recurring but is there a minimum number of subsequent appearances?)

--Opark 77 20:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, this is what I've seen in other episode guides including Desperate Housewives which I also maintain:
  • Yes, you always mention an actor even if they don't have a link. It means that they will eventually receive an article if they become more notable, so don't worry about the red link.
  • Yes, you can link the characters if you so choose. I think this should be optional though.
  • First appearances should be for those who begin a recurring role on the series and have at least 3 episodes under their belt. For example, Fran Feltstein would not be eligible but someone like James "Murmur" Zancone would be able to have a "first appearance" mention.
  • Also, I want to clarify that we should list GUEST STARRING ROLES as billed in the opening credits. Now Opark, I've noticed you've been alphabatizing which could work as well but I've been adding how they were billed. I think either/or but I think it should probably be first billed meaning people who are mentioned in opening credits first, then closing credits and only the people who played supporting roles so Carlo Gervasi (Arthur Nascarella) would be credited but not someone lower like 7 1/2 to 9 (Jane Doe). Or we can keep the guest stars as they are. Which ever way is preferable to the consensus. Sfufan2005 02:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah that was me, I apologise for undoing your good work there - I didn't realise that is how they were ordered until I read your post on Zarbon's request for comment page. It is preferable to me to have them in credits order - although more work to find out this information! I agree that very minor characters need not be included in the guest starring roles, anyone without a name probably doesn't belong. This information is available from the imdb and doesn't belong in an encylopedia. Thanks for the clarification here Sfufan2005, as always, this is a well reasoned approach. --Opark 77 11:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Season 6 source information

Where did the information about the future season 6 episodes come from? PaulC/T+ 04:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

A little site called "The Deadwood Stage" [1]. It has a synopsis for almost every episode of Season 6. Sfufan2005 16:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

season six finale title

jdpeck changed the season six finale title to "kaisha". can anyone confirm this information to be true or is the title still "setimental journey?" - Zarbon

The title was always Kaisha according to the Schedule on HBO.com and ebay.com which is selling a page of the script titled "Kaisha". Sentimental Journey may have been the working title but I got that off of IMDB which is not always reliable when it comes to episode titles. So Kaisha is definitely the title as per HBO. Sfufan2005 20:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Deceased/Title Reference/Trivia

I'm going to try and go in to clean up episode guide so each episode summary looks the relatively the same. My suggestion is that the order of the contents goes:

  • Guest Stars
  • Episode Summary
  • First Apperances
  • Deceased
  • Title Reference
  • Trivia.

Any other suggestions?RTB2006 14:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems fine. Thanks for the effort it will be good to keep them looking consistent. --Opark 77 16:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Clearer Pictures

I just noticed HBO.com has more clearer pictures in their episode guide. I've already replaced the pilot episode. Maybe we should try doing it with the rest.--CyberGhostface 01:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I already did this with "Mergers and Acquistions" but I guess I can do them if I have time. It may take awhile though unless you would like to do some. I also placed fair use claims on all of the pictures which is a necessity for featured lists. Sfufan2005 02:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I just finished for the first season.--CyberGhostface 16:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I have just finished updating all the photos. I hope everyone finds it satisfactory. Sfufan2005 23:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Kaisha picture

I'm going to alter the picture for 6x12 Kaisha as the one used is a bit of a spoiler for the episode plot. --Opark 77 23:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

People going to this guide and wikipedia in general should be expecting spoilers. There are various other pics showing spoiler material on this episode guide. Also, look at the pages for Carnivale and Rome and their episode guide pictures. --CyberGhostface 23:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The main page ep guide tries to avoid spoilers while the episode pages themselves are full of them. The picture should at least reflect the short episode summary - Tony at Phil's bedside doesn't. --Opark 77 07:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Using that logic, half the pictures would have to be changed. And if you want, I'll add a line to the summary mentioning Phil's heart attack. Its the best pic for the episode (on the guide at least) whereas the Carmela/Tony one is just bland.--CyberGhostface 10:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
That's the opposite of what I want - less spoilers on the episode list page so it's useable as a reference for people watching for the first time as well as those of us who are up to date. I'm happy to leave that picture and have the summary as it is. I prefer the other one and I've given my opinion, if no-one else has an opinion it should stay as is. --Opark 77 11:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The Final Eight Episode Titles

Are the episode titles "A Few Kind Words" and "Stage 5" confirmed? Where can I find this information? Also, how come the 2nd and 3rd episode titles have been released, but not the 1st? --RTB2006

Information for episode 614 & 615 titles were retrieved from a website known as "The Deadwood Stage", a very reliable fan site which contains casting calls, episode synospses and things of that nature. Here is a link to the Sopranos portion of the site: [2]. Be careful the site contains spoilers for future episodes. Sfufan2005 20:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I'm not navigating the site correctly or I missed it, but I don't see the episode "Bloodlines" on the Deadwood Stage board. Is that a confirmed title? RTB2006 14:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I think "Bloodlines" needs a citation. Sfufan2005 16:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
They should all have citations. If they don't, then they might end up getting deleted during the upcoming peer review. --Cliff smith 18:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I found a site that has those episodes listed. It's in Dutch, but that doesn't much matter because you can still read all the episode names, which are in English. --Cliff smith 18:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The first four episodes are now listed on HBO's schedule for the Sopranos (Start here[3]). They're all the same as what is currently here, except for the first episode, which is now titled "Soprano Home Movies."

Peer Review and FA drive

This list is starting to shape up. I believe that it can come to achieve the FA status of other episode list pages such as that of Fullmetal Alchemist. Should we aim for a Peer review? What other additions can be made? Qjuad 00:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as additions go, I took a look at other FA episode lists, like the lists for The Simpsons. I also checked out the episode list for Lost. I have made a Season section that incorporates the DVD cover art, like the list for Fullmetal Alchemist. Also, I have added the color-coding for each season that is outlined in the guidelines for episode lists.
--Cliff smith 00:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent work. I've added the region 1 release dates. Is there any other details need to be added? Other material that needs to be reworked? Qjuad 02:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think much else needs to be done. Some pages have a See Also section, but the "Sopranos box" at the bottom of the page has links to all the things, and more, that would be in a See Also section for this page. As a matter of fact, this page might be worthy of an FA nomination. --Cliff smith 02:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Peer review before FAC, just to check what criticism we're likely to get. We need to work on fair use rationales for all the fair use images in this article too.--Opark 77 18:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The fair use thing would probably be the only problem we might run into. I checked the criteria for featured lists and it meets all other requirements. The peer review sounds good; and I will most definitely stick around for the long haul of the eventual FA drive. --Cliff smith 18:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I also like the way this article is shaping up, thanks Cliff, Opark and Qjuad for all your help in improving the page. One question: should the episode titles be bolded? Since this is pretty common on several article pages I've visited on the site. Let me know what you guys think before we make a final decision. Sfufan2005 19:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think we should. The WP:LOE guidelines use bolded titles. Most other episode lists have bolded titles anyways. --Cliff smith 20:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for bolding all of the titles. --Cliff smith 00:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review (2)

Now, I'm curious about something related to the FA drive. Does everyone think we should request a peer review?
I'm just curious because two FA episode lists, the lists for South Park and The Simpsons, both attained FA status without ever having a peer review. I know that they [peer reviews] are a good idea; and as Opark said above, it could help check criticism we'd be likely to get. But it's just that I don't see what kind of criticism this could get apart from fair picture use since it meets all of the criteria for featured lists. I'm just not fully convinced that that one issue alone constitutes the need for a peer review. Besides, if we get any other criticism, we could simply cite how it would be inactionable since the list meets the criteria. All of the screenshots are okay by the fair use guidelines.
What does everyone think?
--Cliff smith 00:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there aren't many obvious criticisms to make fo the page. I think peer review is still important as it will bring up naything we haven't anticipated before FAC or prove the theory that there are no problems with the page correct.--Opark 77 06:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
We should probably go for the peer review just to be on the safe side. Qjuad 14:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, you guys are probably right. How long will the peer review last, do you think? --Cliff smith 20:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No idea. Can't imagine that long. Qjuad 21:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I began the project page—the peer review is officially in effect. Cliff smith 22:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone think the time may come soon to move ahead and apply for FL status? Qjuad 16:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we're almost ready. If we address the automated peer review suggestions over the next couple of days and nothing further comes from the peer review we could move ahead.--Opark 77 19:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
It's almost time for FLC. Since the automated suggestions have been addressed, we could wait to see if we get anything on the peer review page or go ahead with the nomination. —Cliff smith 19:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Automated peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

  1. Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[1]
  2. Consider removing links that add little to the article or that have been repeated in close proximity to other links to the same article, as per WP:MOS-L and WP:CONTEXT.
  3. Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
  4. Per WP:WIAFA, Images should have concise captions.
  5. Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like
  6. As per WP:MOS, please do not link words in headings.
  7. Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a. [2]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, AZ t 00:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I think point 2 might be quite relevant - there are a lot of links in the list and the director and writer links are often repeated within a single section. Are the links important to the list or should we limit each link to once per section?--Opark 77 19:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be a good idea to limit the links to writers and directors as once per section. -- Qjuad 20:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I've made the edits. Does it work? Qjuad 04:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy with it.--Opark 77 20:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have struck through the over linking of dates suggestion as I have copy edited the article and remove most instances of linked dates. I've left in the "year in television" links as I think these ad duseful context.--Opark 77 19:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I've done the same for point 6 as there are no longer links in headers.--Opark 77 19:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure about point 4 - do images in lists need captions? I assume they don't. --Opark 77 19:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Point 5. Are there any examples of units of measurement in the article?--Opark 77 19:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I think we can rule this one out -- Qjuad 20:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
About point 4:
-The screenshots need no captions since they're in a headed column, as are the pics of the DVD cover art.
-The only other picture is the title screen-shot, which has an appropriate caption, so this meets point 4. —Cliff smith 03:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Point 7. Since the superfluous links have been deleted, I don't think that much else could be copyedited. The episode synopses are brief, concise, and to-the-point.
—Cliff smith 18:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Point 1. According to WP:LEAD, "the appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article." This article may be physically long, but in words it is not. The subject is bolded as it should be, and it gives adequate information about the article's subject without running on. —Cliff smith 19:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you think we should we apply for FL status now? I don't think the peer review will be recieving any more comments - and considering this is not a full article but a list, I can not imagine there is much else we need to change. Qjuad 19:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I was just thinking about that. Let's go ahead and do it. —Cliff smith 19:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm putting the nomination in right now. —Cliff smith 19:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Summaries

Per Jay's suggestions on the FLC page, I have begun expanding the episode summaries. Season 1 is complete, and hopefully the other five can be done without stopping the nomination. —Cliff smith 03:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the summary expansions will be finished in about two days. Season 2 is now complete. —Cliff smith 01:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Season 3 is now complete. —Cliff smith 18:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Season 4 is now complete. The two-day hope is obviously lost, but the summary expansions will be finished soon. —Cliff smith 03:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to help from Qjuad, seasons 5 and 6 are complete. Cliff smith 18:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Table of contents

I'm proposing moving it below the lead. As it is right now, it really makes it difficult to read the lead as it pushes it towards the image and reduces its width. Michaelas10 (Talk) 18:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationales

The rationales for the screenshots on this page are pretty weak. Fair Use should be used when we need it, not because there's a space in a table. The generic shot of Tony Soprano tells me absolutely nothing about the first episode (at least, nothing that couldn't adequately be expressed with copyright-free words). ed g2s • talk 02:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're overreacting. The generic shot of Tony, for example, is for the first episode and is thus introducing the viewer to the series. The other episodes tend to have more plot-specific pics. If we were to remove these Fair Use pages, we should also have to remove other episode guides...which would be a shame, as they add a lot to the articles.--CyberGhostface 04:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The Sopranos episodes - plot sections

I am not sure this belongs to this very talk page, but since it's the page with the collection of all the episodes which share a common problem, I thought this would be the best place to discuss the problem.
I was looking at the articles about the episodes of The Sopranos, and, well, they do need help. The problem, imho, is that most of them they have too large an episode recap section, which attempts to give details of each and every scene of the episode, instead of briefly summarizing the main events, as WP:EPISODE and WP:TVE suggest. I would be happy to start working on it, but I wanted to discuss this with the community first. What do people think? Gimlei 04:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC) (I am also posting the reference to this discussion to the talk page of the WikiProject Television episodes)

There's also a lack of development and reception information. There are also trivia and misc. section. These should be merged into proper sections or removed as appropriate. Jay32183 05:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, other sections should be created and trivia merged into them or deleted. Could you recommend any reliable sources from which the information about the development and reception can be taken? Gimlei 15:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Audio commentaries are a great source for development information but these are available for a minority of episodes. Awards "trivia" should be moved into a reception section.--Opark 77 19:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. The problem is that it has become a major misconception that being apart of a notable series makes individual episodes notable. Cut down the plot and deleting or merging sounds like the direction to go in, in my opinion. -- Ned Scott 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe the articles do need to lose most of the plot part, but I don't think they should be merged or deleted. There are multiple indications on Wikipedia that episodes articles are notable, and they could make interesting and useful ones. I'd go for improvement instead of deletion. Gimlei 15:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that the plot summaries need to be cut-back. The ones I began were based on personal notes and I made no effort ot cut them down when I posted them. They are much too long for Wikipedia and I would welcome someone editing them down. I completely disagree that the individual episode articles are non-notable and should be deleted but this is a much broader issue and is not for those of us interested in this episode guide to determine. The television wikiproject would seem a more sensible place to raise this for the community to consider. I would support any effort to improve these articles. I agree that the trivia sections need to be removed and the information put into appropriate subsections if necessary.--Opark 77 19:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Future TV episodes list template

I reverted the removal of the future TV episodes list template from the 2006-2007 season, because the Part 2 is yet to have aired. I agree that it might be more suitable to put the template before the "Part 2" part of the table, but because due to formatting difficulties it is impossible to split the 6th season into two tables, and putting the template into a table cell makes it look ugly, I suggest the template is left as is, at least for now. If anyone has better ideas, please list them. Gimlei 17:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

End credits music

I was wondering if anyone else thinks it might be appropriate to name the song that plays during the end credits in each episode's article. We could put it near the 1st appearances, deaths, and title references. I'd think that it's information people would find useful; several times I've found myself trying to find the name of a song that gets played on the show. Also, it'd be consistent among episode articles since nearly every episode has a unique piece of music playing over the end credits. Anyway, I could certainly help fill in those that I know if people think it's a good idea. Thebogusman 09:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is useful information, and I would have supported the idea, but something inside me kind of resists the creation of yet another one-line (even one-paragraph) section in already fragmented articles. Maybe it would be best to create a separate article (or list?) that would have all the end credits music, and add that list to the Sopranos link list template (which, btw, should be put on every episodes' page, imho)? --Gimlei (talk to me) 11:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
That's a good idea. I made a tentative page at List of songs used in The Sopranos end credits (not sure if that's an appropriate title or not, but I suppose it'll do for now). It's very incomplete right now, as I pretty much just listed the songs that are mentioned on the individual episode pages. Does anyone know if there's a web resource that would have all of them? I know that tv.com has soundtrack listings, but it doesn't specify which one is used at the end. Anyway, if not, I've got the first 4 seasons on DVD so I can watch those and try to figure it out, and I can do some searching on the web I suppose. Thebogusman 21:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Remove images or lose featured list status

There is a discussion about Fair use images in featured lists at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_list_criteria#Fair_Use_images which may result in this list losing its featured list status. - Peregrine Fisher 23:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Query: What difference is there between putting pics on the List page and putting pics on the individual episode pages? The individual episode pages still have the stills from the HBO site. Should those be removed too? Chris —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.241.29.196 (talk) 17:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
Although the removing of the images from the list is just another example of copyright paranoia, hopefully similar actions won't be taken with the episode guides. There, there is only one pic per article and it better serves the article as its about that specific episode.--CyberGhostface 20:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

New image for Stage 5?

While normally I am against using screenshots when HBO has decent ones on their episode guide, does anyone think a screenshot of Johnny S. would be best for this episode? One at the hospital with him and his family? I only say this because he was arguably the biggest part of the episode, and HBO didn't have one pic with him.--CyberGhostface 03:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with that--MistaTee 03:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably better to stick with one of the free downloads on HBO; their easier to defend in terms of fair use. Qjuad 04:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
TV screenshots are allowed under fair use; we already have one for The Test Drive.--CyberGhostface 21:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Recently, TV screenshots have become more and more of an issue. Still think it's better to stick with ones are officially released. Qjuad 21:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Please replace the images, this page is only a violation of a disputed reading of the policy. The only consensus that exists about this is that we are not going to change our rules to prohibit images in lists like this. See Wikipedia:Fair use criteria/Amendment 2. - Peregrine Fisher 21:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Episode guides Reference to Final Episode sections

I notice the Reference to Final Episode section has been removed from some (all?) episodes, citing wp:or as the reason. While it can be argued that these constituted original research it can equally be argued that these sections increased understanding of how the individual episodes and the whole collection were constructed, and thus they merit a place. It seems a shame to lose them altogether - maybe move them to another page/section on The Sopranos? There doesn't seem to have been any discussion about this or did I miss it? Cathi M 12:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Clean up for the featured ones]

There is a discussion concerning the images on this list at [Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Clean up for the featured ones]. - Peregrine Fisher 18:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Now moved here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/List of Family Guy episodes. --Cyde Weys 00:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for editing

{{editprotected}}

  • Would an administrator be kind enough to change the director for the most recent episode "Walk Like a Man". Currently the episode lists Tim Van Patten as the director, however Terence Winter is billed as both the writer and director for this episode. Here is the citation for proof: Ain't It Cool-Remaining 6 Sopranos Episodes. Thank you. Sfufan2005 02:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Additionally, an update is required for the episode description of Blue Comet; "The allegiance of those closest to Tony is put to the test; a case of mistaken identity has serious ramifications." And the citation; [4] Qjuad 17:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I am going to unprotect the page. Please don't reinsert the images until the discussion about them comes to a conclusion. It's clear that there is not consenus to add them back just yet. CMummert · talk 15:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ See footnote
  2. ^ See footnote
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