Talk:List of confederations

I recognize that the Iroquois nation is now listed in both the historic and current confederations tables. I strongly believe that this double-listing is appropriate. The historic confederations table is the natural reference for oldest examples of confederacies. If the Iroquois were missing from that table, it would remove them from recognition.

The oldest other example of a current confederacy in the bottom table is from 1960, so while this is the correct table in the strictest of senses, it is simply not where most readers would look for the Iroquois.

Present day confederations

Should we create another table for present day confederations? Possibly including continental blocs like the EU and AU? Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

there are certainly more tribal confederations I'm missing Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

for clarification, I put one date for loss of independence, and one for loss of nominal rule Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Turkic tribal confederations? Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Circassia and Tiele people? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Trade leagues

@AvailableViking do you think trade leagues should be included like the Hanseatic League? Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

it depends because I dont know of any other than the Hanseatic League but I do think we should make a table for Greek Leagues though some might exist on this page List of ancient Greek alliances but im not sure if its incomplete AvailableViking (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvailableViking yeah agreed, there's too many to fit into one entry, maybe put it in between the states and tribal ones Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvailableViking tbf that's the only one I can find, I just assumed there'd be more. Should continental blocks be included like EU, Arab league, and African Union? They sort of have confederal models. The confederation article says international institutions can be confederations. If we do include them, then maybe they should have a separate table and be supported by an academic source which describes them as confederal (Idm doing this) Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I dont really think supernational and international organizations are confederations personally but I guess if there is a academic source it could do with its own table but they are de facto only and not de jure so i dont really think it counts AvailableViking (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, maybe a table at the bottom Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvailableViking for the Greek city states these may be useful, I don't have access to the second one [1] and [2] Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

those would be good sources AvailableViking (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

should i make the greek league table or are you going to AvailableViking (talk) 20:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvailableViking you can if you want Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

ok AvailableViking (talk) 20:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Btw, the reason there are some tribal confederations in the states table is because they seem to have been confederations of tribal confederations, but I need to look into it more as it’s quite murky. Also, the reason the Sanhaja are in the tribal table whilst having confederations in them is because I don’t think they were centralised enough but again I need to look into it Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I feel like im done now

@Alexanderkowal Ive added as many confederations as i could find and I added the greek leagues i think im done for now but if I find any I will come back AvailableViking (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvailableViking thanks for your help Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

HRE and religious war leagues?

@Alexanderkowal should we add these or should we make their own chart. I already added the leagues from the Holy Roman Empire that act like confederations while the rest resemble military alliances more.

Holy roman empire leagues -

• Swabian League of Cities
• Rhenish league of cities
• Prussian Confederation
• Tuscan League

Other hre leagues -

• Lizard League (medieval)
• Décapole

European War of religion leagues -

• League of Torgau
• Protestant Union
• Heilbronn League
• Schmalkaldic League
• Catholic League (French)
• Catholic League
• League of Cambrai
• Every Holy League (there is probably over 10)

Economic leagues - Hanseatic league (if we include the others then this could be added) AvailableViking (talk) 22:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think they fit in the states one, but maybe group some of them, so if a collection of leagues all confederated for the same reason like in the religious war, group them together and then list the individual ones in the info section. Idm doing the writing for entries. I’m thinking about doing this for the Greek city state leagues and putting them in the states table. I think it’s probably best to have three tables, one for states, one for tribes, and one for international orgs Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

For example, see Zenata or the three Sanhaja groupings in the tribal table. But if you’d prefer for these to have their own table then do that Alexanderkowal (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

ive added mos of the leagues that I thought would fit im still unsure if trade leagues should be added like Hanseatic League of the Werner Bund AvailableViking (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah tbh maybe separating out the ones that were formed for defensive purposes and the ones that were for commercial purposes, did you find many trade leagues and were the Greek ones all defensive? Good work btw Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

For the ones that are really small or don’t fit too well, maybe group them like I did w the Tuareg in the tribal table, and page link to a commonality like a war, ethnic group, or region Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Coalitions

@AvailableViking this might be a horrible idea but should we make a new table for military coalitions where there was a distinct leader, like the League of Cambrai? Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree since some of them operated more as coalitions than a state but some of them were more confederal-esque so it would be a undertaking to properly sort them out. AvailableViking (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

alternatively we could add another variable to the chart that says which type and we could put confederation, confederal republic, league, and military league etc. but im not sure AvailableViking (talk) 21:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I really like that, but what's the difference between a league and a confederation? Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

they are practically the same thing, the military leagues during some of the holy wars were just more similar to coalitions but still acted somewhat like standard leagues. im thinking that i should maybe remove league of cambrai and not include the holy league since those are just coalitions AvailableViking (talk) 21:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

if we add a new variable then maybe they can stay AvailableViking (talk) 21:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

yeah I like that, would the Napoleonic coalitions be suited here? If we were to include them I imagine they'd be the loosest polities we include, and would lead to lots of other coalitions being included (probably just the big ones). Idk it depends on how long we think the list should be, confederation is a very loose term Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

i dont think we should include them since they are just an alliance and had no real unity except a common goal. AvailableViking (talk) 21:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

yeah I suppose there's no central authority Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Tbh I don't think I know the difference between a confederation and a coalition. I suppose a coalition is purely for military purposes and there's no integration between the composites. I think still keep the states, tribal, and supranational tables, and add the variable to the states table Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

back then leagues were created as a type of confederation either for defense or mercantile purposes but some acted more a coalition which is just a bunch of states that enter a alliance together to take down a specific enemy ie the several coalitions that sought to take down Napoleonic France. Some leagues had integration while other didn't have as much AvailableViking (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes then I think adding a new variable works well Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

sounds good AvailableViking (talk) 21:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

its going to take a little bit to fix the page AvailableViking (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah just add the box for the variable and we'll chip away at it. Idm adding the variable if it's too much of a slog Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Did I cause an edit conflict? Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

idk AvailableViking (talk) 21:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)