Talk:List of outlaw motorcycle clubs/Archive 1

Archive 1

Pink Angels

That entry needs to be deleted - it says it's a gay MC founded in San Francisco in 1931, which is counter-intuitive on several levels. The link for the entry is to the One Percenter Enyclopedia, but it contains no reference to the "Pink Angels" (the book can be previewed via Google Books). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.17.113 (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Hell's Satans

I don't quite understand why Hell's Satans ought to link to a Simpsons site. either 1) the Hell's Satans are a real group of bikers, then i can't see why the link should lead to a parody on them; or 2) the Hell's Satan are a fictional group only existing in a Simpsons episode, then they should be removed from the list. or did i get something wrong? greetings, Flechtwerk 12:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Whichever is the correct answer, don't make a redlink if you're not sure that such a group really exists. I'd rather see a separate section under the heading "Fictional motorcycle gangs" at the bottom of the page than remove the Hell's Satans completely. Wipe 14:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? If the Hell's Satans only exist in the Simpson's episode, then the brief mention they get here should be enough. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia, not a TV trivia game. It's enough work to try to manage a list of real (either historic or current) motorcycle gangs, and differentiate them from the other 99 percent of real motorcycle clubs without having to include fictional gangs. Garth of the Forest 06:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Unforgiven

Disregard everything below for this alleged club. Pure speculation and nothing of value. There are probably a lot of tiny local clubs with this stupid name. Who cares?

Begin Reading Idiocy:

I see that the "Unforgiven" is shown as a group out of South Pekin, Illinois. This may well be true, but it was also the name of a bogus outlaw motorcycle club that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Fireams came up with in order to try to obtain convictions of I think it was Hells Angels somewhere in the Southwest. The ATF was successful. In any event, I thought that maybe this "Unforgiven" should also notated to include that there was also a bogus ATF club by that name at one point. LOL. It's talked about in "Angels of Death" by William Marsden and Julian Sher. Also, they mention the Coffin Cheaters in Australia, so I have added that as well (I think it's a west coast group, out of Perth or someplace like that). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.158.108 (talk) 20:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

THERE ARE LOTS OF UNFORGIVEN MC IN THE USA WITH DIFFERENT LOGOS.,,,COPS LOVE TO FUCK WITH PEOPLE HEADS DURING INVESTIGATIONS.THEY DONT CARE WHO GETS SHOT, HURT, KILLED.THEY TAKE THE SLIGHTEST TINY EST TRUTH MIX IT WITH A SHIT LOAD OF LIES SO PEOPLE BELIEVE IT..THEY THINK OW THIS IS TRUE SO THE REST MUST BE TRUE....WRONG...A BUNCH OF LIES FOR THERE CAUSE TO MAKE A BUST..NOT CARING WHO GETS HURT,KILLED OR WHAT CITIZEN OR CITIZENS ARE IN THE WAY.

"Rockers" - "Rock Machine"

This list mentions the "Rockers" out of Montreal. Is that the same as "the Rock Machine"??? (I think the Rock Machine patched over at some point, but it was a major club at some point - is this the same as the "Rockers"??? Sounds too close - gotta be the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.158.108 (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Rock Machine was the rival gang that the Hells Angels were duking it out with during the "Quebec biker wars". The Rockers were an Angels puppet club. Two very different groups with similar names. Don't "gotta be".Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this list meaningful?

A lot of the organizations listed here have either been patched over into other gangs (mostly into the Big Four), or currently operate as "puppet gangs" for one of the "Big Four" or some other larger gang. Others are likely bogus (see discussion above), or for other reasons currently unknown (i.e. is Y Rohirrim an actual motorcycle gang, or has someone visiting here seen and/or read The Lord of the Rings a few too many times?), don't belong here in this list. Is there some acceptable way we can make this list more useful, i.e. by somehow indicating in what region (and era) the gang is (or was) active, and what their current status is, short of writing a whole bunch of (very) short articles about former biker gangs or "wannabee" biker gangs that probably don't warrant an article of their very own? Garth of the Forest 06:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem I see with this list is that there is no consensus definition of motorcycle gang. The groups listed here, mostly motorcycle clubs are placed here solely based on one editors opinion that they are a gang. We could change the title to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (OMGs), which is an official FBI/Criminal Intelligence Service Canada (CISC) designation, thus providing verifiable criteria for inclusion. Additionally, being listed as an OMG by FBI/CISC automatically imputes notability, and therefore makes an article about such a group possible.

So, as I see it, there are three options here:

• Leave this article as is
• Rename this article to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs
• AFD this article and create a new List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs

Thoughts and/or suggestions? Mmoyer 01:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Good feedback. One thing I do appreciate about this list is that it includes some clubs that are no longer operating under that name but are of historical significance. While there may not be a consensus definition of "motorcycle gang", a pragmatic way of making the distinction between a "motorcycle club" and the subset term "gang" is whether or not the club uses a three piece patch or not, where the bottom rocker typically designates a state, province, city, or other significant region of operation (or, in the case of the Hells Angels, the special lower rocker "Nomads"). The other giveaways are the use of the patches "MC" and/or "one-percenter". For example, if you visit the website for the Iron Indian Riders Association (a "99-percenter" club, definitely not a "gang"), and read the "Requirements, Guidelines, and Benefits" section, they very clearly forbid members from wearing three piece patches on the backs of their jackets, or any chapter location bars or lower rockers indicating a state, territory, city, or other region, and also from wearing a "1%er" or "MC" patch. The reason for this, while not explicitly stated, is to avoid potential conflict over "turf" with the "gangs". See this article[1] for a discussion of the possible implications of not following the membership requirements of a 99%-er club like the IIRA. Or this one[2].

My concern is that if we restrict the contents of this list solely to the official OMG designation as per the FBI and/or CSIS, this might result in too short of a list (four organizations according to this article), unless - does the FBI also list known puppet clubs or smaller players other than the "big four"?

With this concern in mind, my initial thoughts are either to

• leave this article as is, but add a brief description behind each name; or
• rename the article to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs, as you suggested, and provide a link to this list. This second choice implies a significant reduction in the length of this list, and an increase in size of the other list (List of Motorcycle Clubs), which, in my opinion, should also then include all the notable historic so-called "gangs" that were in existence prior to when the law enforcement agencies you mentioned created the official designation Outlaw Motorcycle Gang. Garth of the Forest 20:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and start adding (where known) the location of the founding (mother) chapter, as well as year established, etc. Otherwise this list is just a redundant repetition of what could be handled by a category designation. Garth of the Forest (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Title correction

The title should read something more akin to "List of Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs." Despite the incorrect designation of certain motorcycle clubs as 'gangs' by law enforcement agencies, they are, in fact, not gangs, but motorcycle clubs, and should be designated as such, as this is the manner both in which the clubs refer to themselves, and how they are addressed by other members of the motorcycle community (AMA included). Nephilim13 (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Please explain why you think the law enforcement designation is "incorrect", and/or provide some other third party, reliable source to verify your claim. A gang is simply "a number of persons associated for a particular purpose" ([3]|Wiktionary:gang); I think the word fits appropriately here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

By the Wiktionary definition, I would agree. "A number of persons associated for a particular purpose". And by this very logic, we can go down to the LAPD and see the Los Angeles Police Gang in action. Or, we could go to the local campgrounds, because after all, the local Boy Scout Gang is there.

The point is, the word "gang" has a negative connotation, and is often used by biased individuals to perpetrate a stereotype. If Wikipedia is to have any semblance of integrety in its entries, it should BE a reliable source. You are asking us to basically disprove a stereotype, which can be argued around and around. With the Wiktionary definition itself, it should eliminate the title of this list, because the term "gang" would apply to Riding Clubs, Motorcycle Clubs, Motorcycle Ministries, Police Clubs, etc.

67.232.127.153 (talk) 06:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)P

RE: Vandalism by mynameisstanley, convicted sockpuppet

Please hold off adding any new names for a day or two; I plan to restore this to a previous version of the list in a future edit...Garth of the Forest (talk) 03:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Is this list meaningful

The problem with narrowing the title to accomodate a "verifiable criteria for inclusion" as per the FBI or CISC is that their criteria is flawed. It is written in a language so vague that the Boy Scouts, Masonic Lodge, or even the Police themselves can be construed as a "gang".

Federal guidelines passed allow enhanced sentencing for those involved in criminal organizations. However, it is often misused due to its vagueness, and many individuals are charged under the RICO act for organized crime. However, the burden of proof SHOULD rest upon the prosecutors in a criminal case to prove WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it was an organizational decision and not an individual decision. After all, if this can be done for one subset of society, then it should be done for all.

I personally feel that the title of "gang" in the context of the clubs listed, as well as for those that would be negatively represented (possibly libeled) by printing that they are a "gang", is a disservice.

If you want to label, label them for what they are. Riding Clubs, Motorcycle Clubs, Motorcycle Ministries, etc. It is a disservice to the community to propagate the negative stereotypes of those who choose to ride. Joe Citizen doesn't notice the XYZ MC; they just see a patch and remember what they read at Wikipedia.

67.232.127.153 (talk) 06:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)P

While I completely disagree with the conclusion you've reached in the last sentence of your first paragraph, I do take your point about the negative connotation of the word "gang". But, if the shoe fits... Anyway - I objected to narrowing the title to the "law enforcement" designation because that is essentially four clubs. No need for a list. We were trying to capture other, smaller, or historically significant clubs in this list. Someone else decided it should only include those clubs which have their very own Wikipedia article, and went on a delete rampage. I have yet to get around to reconstructing the list we had before, but it is still on my "to-do" list. Perhaps we can agree to call it "List of Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs" (using Coyote's definition rather than the FBI's definition?) Comments? Suggestions? Garth of the Forest (talk) 19:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

What about creating a master list, with subsections. MCs that are on the law enforcement lists can have a section, those that identify themselves as ministries get a section, and so forth? This way, there is one inclusive list with sub-lists, then our only trouble is deciding which clubs go into which sections (this can be subjective at times, and invites vandalism or repeated counter-edits). OMGs can have their designation noted, without being too short for its own article. Thoughts? Sabin4232 (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Night wolves

The largest Russian club should also be mentioned, I suppose http://www.nightwolves.ru/en/ 78.107.92.84 (talk) 08:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)Peter

Other OMCG not included

Gypsy joker - Lone Wolf - Fourth Reich - Life and death - Highway 61 - Coffin cheaters - Odin's warriors—Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.69.86 (talk) 13:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

These lists become a nightmare to maintain if they grow too large, and if additions are made without each one having a reliable source. I don't think the existence of a web page is sufficent criteria for inclusion. While a club does not have to meet all the criteria in WP:ORG to be on a list, as they would to have their own WP page, there still needs to be a reasonable minimum.

Unsourced additions should be deleted right away to keep it from getting out of hand.--Dbratland (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree; please add a third party, verifiable source (such as a book, or a newspaper article) when adding a name to this list. The fact that there is a website for the "club" is not enough to verify that the club actually exists because a "club" website is neither a third party source nor does the existence of a club website necessarily verify the actual existence of a club. Any caged monkey with an internet connection can create a website, this does not a motorcycle club make. Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

List of suggested additions

Please move these to the article if a reliable independent citation is included demonstrating notability greater than merely having a web site. Outlaw clubs without an official web site but with reliable sources demonstrating notability may be added to the article. A separate WP article on the club is is not a requirement.

The Comancheros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanchero_Motorcycle_Club), who were involved in the Milperra Massacre with the Bandidos, should be added to this list. As should the Black Uhlans (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-25/black-uhlans'-alleged-boss-to-pay-$360,000/7782098) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.186.111.141 (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Suggested additions may be added to this list.

Name	Year founded	Location founded	Official Site	Citation
A'mon's	1972	Contra Costa County, California	[4]
Apollos		Regina, Saskatchewan
Balaios	1969	Rio de Janeiro, Brazil	[5]
Barons	1950's	St. Cloud, Minnesota	[6]
Born To Be Wild	1975	Berlin, Germany	[7]
Bounty Hunters		Canada
The Brotherhood	1990's	Denmark
Bullshit	1980's	Christiania, Denmark	[8]
Charter Oak	1947	Connecticut, United States
Chieftains	1976	Lawrence, Massachusetts	[9]
Coffin Cheaters		Australia	[10]
Dirty Dräggels	1980's	Malmö, Sweden	[11]
Foolish Few	1979	Melbourne, Victoria	[12]
Gremium	1972	Mannheim, Germany	[13]
Gypsy Jokers		Australia	[14]
Henchmen	1998	Livermore, California	[15]
Immortals	1971	Melbourne, Victoria	[16]
Iron Coffins MC
Iron Horsemen	1969	Melbourne, Victoria	[17]
Legion	1970	Pittsburgh, PA	[18]
Legion of Doom	1997	Brooklyn, New York City	[19]
Los Traviesos		New Mexico	[20]
Mad Dogs Motorcycle Club	2007	St. Albans, Maine	[21]
Mobshitters	1970	Sydney, New South Wales	[22]
Morbids	1980's	Helsingborg, Sweden	[23]
Morticians	1984	Copenhagen, Denmark	[24]
Nomads	1968	Australia	[25]
Odin's Warriors	1967	Queensland, Australia	[26]
Purple Gang	1998	North Carolina
Popeyes		Montreal, Quebec	[27]
Rebels	1969	Brisbane, Queensland	[28]
Rowdies	1980's	Trondheim, Norway
Saraguay Troopers		Montreal, Quebec
Satan's Choice		Canada	[29]
Satan's Calvery		Victoria, Australia
Satans Own	1972	Cincinnati, Ohio	?
Satan's Sidekicks	1972	Detroit, Michigan
Satan's Sinners		Victoria, Australia
Satans Slaves	1960's	San Fernando Valley
Satans Slaves	1968	Fife, Scotland
Satan's Sons		Atlanta, Georgia
Santana Saviores M/C	1960's	California.
Unforgiven		South Pekin, Illinois
Wheels of Soul	1967	Trenton, New Jersey
White Trash	1980's	Helsingborg, Sweden

RfC started to discuss replacing Criminal Org Infobox with Org Infobox

Please comment on an RfC to replace Template:Infobox Criminal organization with Template:Infobox Organization for active motorcycle clubs. Thanks! --Dbratland (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Ya'all forgot about the El Forasteros... BTW- GGMC and EFMC ARE NOT OUTLAW GANGS. You are extremely mis-informed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.65.245 (talk) 18:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Bad Link

The link for Galloping Goose goes to something about railcars. That can't be right. 173.184.17.90 (talk) 00:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. One down, 37 to go. --Dbratland (talk) 05:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Deletions and rename?

There are many outlaw motorcycle clubs that are law abiding (some that are made up of law enforcement). It seems like the original author's intention was too focus on motorcycle gangs, so should this list be renamed to "List of 1% Motorcycle Clubs"? Also, even though they were precursors to the 1% lifestyle, I don't think Market Street Commandos, POBOB, and Tophatters should be included on this list. They were rowdy for their times, but still not as rowdy as criminal gangs during that era. POBOB and Tophatters are still not a 1%, or gang-like MC even to this day. And Solo Angels, they aren't 1%, or gang-like. They should probably be removed. The rowdiest members of Solo Angels were probably the undercover ATF agents that posed as SA members while they were infiltrating the Hells Angels. 98.176.116.217 (talk) 08:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Most sources treat "one percenter" and "outlaw" as meaning more or less the same thing. Do you have a reliable source who says there is a big difference? There is also a List of motorcycle clubs for those clubs that are not part of the outlaw/one percenter sub culture. This list is not a list of "criminals" -- if an outlaw club has a criminal history, that will be described on that club's page, if any.

No club should be listed on either list unless they have minimal attention in third party, independent books, magazines, newspapers or other media. This is not a list of who has a web site.

Please do not add any more uncited entries to this list. --Dbratland (talk) 15:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Outsiders

Met Outsiders at another "known" club's club house. They have been around the Pacific Northwest since 1968...

http://www.outsidersmotorcycleclub.com

The state of Oregon considers them an "outlaw" club...

http://nwhog.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/outlaw-motorcycle-gangs-flying-colors-in-oregon/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by PatMcQ (talk • contribs) 16:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Changes

Vagos were formed in Temescal Valley, Ca, not San Bernardino. Temescal Valley is a small unincorporated community in Riverside County, between El Cerrito and Lake Elsinore.98.176.116.103 (talk) 09:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Added Forty Thieves Motorcycle Club. Noteworthy since the establishment of this MC is the result of an internal feud with Mongols MC. Disgruntled ex-Mongols from Canadian charters established Forty Thieves MC after their membership was revoked from the Mongols MC mother chapter.98.176.233.118 (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

See WP:RS. You need to cite an independent source that verifies that they are notable in some way. Having a web site is not enough. --Dbratland (talk) 04:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• Diablos MC was established in 1964 San Bernardino, CA, not in Meriden, CT. They have chapters in CT, MA, and CA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.233.118 (talk) 05:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Outline of motorcycles and motorcycling

This article is featured on the Outline of motorcycles and motorcycling - please help to improve it. Thruxton (talk) 17:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Iron Riders

A 1% club in my area named Iron Riders could be mentioned.

Not sure where about the history and stuff but another club, that I believe spans several states.

Anyhow, cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.245.56 (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Formatting official websites

Would it make more sense to list the official websites using {{url}} like this, instead of formatting as references?

Name	Year founded	Location founded	Official site	Citation
Bandidos	1966	San Leon, Texas, United States	www.bandidosmc.com

I'd just as soon delete the official cites. We don't have quality information on which sites are official and which aren't, and it's not necessary for a Wikipedia article to provide a web site directory. But if we do keep them then {{url}} is helpful. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Given that clubs listed should really have an article (or are redlinked but listed because they are notable enough that an article could be created and survive AfD), then there really is no need to link to the external website. The convention in articles is always that you don't give an external link to a company whose wiki article is linked, e.g. You wouldn't have an external link to www.bmw.com from the Mini (marque) article because BMW is already wikilinked. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

But then we'd lose the links to the clubs that don't have an article yet. — Brianhe (talk) 04:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I think I've come to agree with Dennis -- a list of official websites would look a lot like a directory, which Wikipedia is not. Any last calls before this column is deleted? — Brianhe (talk) 22:39, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Gremium

Gremium MC – one of the leading motorcycle-clubs internationally and the largest MC in Germany, that looks proudly into 40 years of tradition. It was founded in Mannheim in 1972 and has been developing permanently. Actually there are 73 Full- and 6 Prospect-Chapter in Germany. Further there are 71 Chapter in Italy, Poland, Canaries, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Austria, Spain, Venezuela, Thailand, Serbia, Turkey and Chile belonging to the large family of the Gremium motorcycle-club. They cultivate special friendship and very strong and long lasting relations to each other. Gremium MC goes to many motorcycle events all over the world and cultivates friendships to many other motorcycle clubs in Germany and foreign countries. Also, for a couple of years an own Dragster Racing Team has been sponsoring by Gremium.

http://www.gremium.de/index2.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.209.52.92 (talk) 10:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

May I suggest that you write an article yourself about the club? The best way is to register an account then if you need help come over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling and ask. We are all bikers/motorcyclists and if we can help a fellow enthusiast we will do everything we can to improve motorcycling-related articles on Wikipedia. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

de:Gremium MC could be translated to English. — Brianhe (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks like there's a book on the club listed on Amazon.de, and it isn't mentioned in the German Wikipedia article. ISBN 3000377271. — Brianhe (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I created Gremium Motorcycle Club. It is categorized merely as a "motorcycle club" for now. Should it be "outlaw"? Not sure -- looks like some members have committed crimes but no charges against the organization have stuck. — Brianhe (talk) 23:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Deferred to Bundeskriminalamt and listed Gremium MC as outlaw, and added to the list. — Brianhe (talk) 22:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand Motorcycle Clubs

For some reason someone keeps deleting my entries of New Zealand outlaw motorcycle clubs. Hey, we may be a small country but we have plenty of outlaw clubs. Is this just another attempt at belittling New Zealand? For reference sake here are a list of outlaw clubs operating in New Zealand, other than those already included. Yes some have the same name as American clubs but they are independent. Here are some that should be included.

Name	Year founded	Location founded	Citation
Head Hunters	1967	West Auckland, New Zealand
Outlaws	?	Napier, New Zealand
Filthy Few	?	Tauranga, New Zealand
Devil's Henchmen	1973	Timaru, New Zealand
Outcasts	?	Hamilton, New Zealand

Those are some the larger and more well known clubs in New Zealand other than international outlaw clubs and the ones already included. So what's wrong with added them to the list? It really isn't a complete list if so many are left off. This is the reason I avoid Wikipedia, people taking over and refusing to let others edit...118.93.22.170 (talk) 00:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Hey there, anonymous New Zealander. No need to be defensive, the same list criteria apply to all entries on the list no matter where they are: they must have notability established. I'm personally interested in the NZ clubs and in fact created the template {{New Zealand outlaw motorcycle clubs}}, although I am in the United States. — Brianhe (talk) 04:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Road Runners MC

de:Road Runners MC in German Wikipedia looks well sourced and could probably be brought over to the English Wikipedia. Here is a rough start. — Brianhe (talk) 17:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced entry magnet

We've known this for a while, but just to state the obvious, all the [citation needed] tags next to the entries with articles are a terrible magnet for unsourced entries. We know that the entries with Wikipedia articles all have sufficient sources to establish notability; it's just that notbody yet has done the work of copying a few of the citations over to this list. So it looks like unsourced entries are welcome as long as you tag them. In fact, entries that don't have their own article must have sources.

So the sooner we fix that the better. Sorry I can't do it right now myself. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree, boldly done. - Brianhe (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually I meant that each entry needs to have citations added, but I think removing the tags is a good intermediate step, since the tags weren't doing any good. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Derp, I didn't read your text completely. It will be hard to keep the lists of citations synchronized, don't you think? - Brianhe (talk) 19:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

They don't need to be synchronized. The only reason to take citations from the articles is because that's the least amount of work. You could have completely different citations here and in the article, so long as the ones here show the club is somewhat notable. While over on the article the standard is higher, WP:GNG.

So we just need one or two decent citations that show a minimum of notability. But failing that we can just presume that if the article exists that notability has been met. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Resource on Australian gangs

"Anti Gang Laws in Australia" published by NSW Parliament has a list of named outlawed gangs on pages 15–16, and an extensive online-references section starting on page 55. — Brianhe (talk) 00:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Limits of notability

Regarding this addition, we can't attempt to list every outlaw club ever mentioned anywhere. There are too many of them and the fact that a name popped up in a news article once is not enough reason to add them to this list. What we end up with is nothing but a list of names with no information. It's like having a list of bands. You can't list every band anybody ever started. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Vietnam Vets MC Northeast listed as Outlaw Motorcycle Club

This club should be listed here as there are many documents online that point out that they are included in that category. Not to be confused with the Vietnam Vets MC USA which is not an outlaw motorcycle club and does not wear 1% diamond.

There are numerous articles and documents from newspapers and government organizations that list them as such. As you find the articles, please feel free to add them to the list of references. I did notice that some of the clubs listed do not have any references confirming there status as outlaw mc's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.9 (talk) 16:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The sources you gave are totally incoherent and contradit what you just said. this FBI National Gang assessment lists the name " Vietnam Vets MC " under Massachusetts in "APPENDIX A. Gangs by State" though you're saying that they are not a 1% gang. The FBI document makes no mention of the Vietnam Vets Northeast. This copyright-violationg news report is also totally confused as to whether the Northeast group is or is not part of the Vets MC. This is only a brief mention way down at the bottom of an article including the Vietnam Vets Northeast as only one of 8 or more gangs in the Northeast. So it's not clear who we're really talking about, and even if it were, they are not notable enough. We don't need there to be enough coverage to write a separate article, but the gang has to be notable for something other than existing and having a 1% patch. If you have high quality sources you an cite which 1) clarify who exactly they are and 2) tell us what they're notable for, then please post it here. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Just want to clarify this for you Dennis, VNV MC USA and VNV MC Northeast are two different clubs. USA is a Veterans only club and the Northeast is a 1%, Outlaw Motorcycle Club who have been around for over 30 years...which is a lot longer than most of the clubs wiki lists. Like most notable clubs, they try to stay out of the news not in it. You won't find a lot about them online. The articles I found I included, I found one more (http://vtdigger.org/2012/01/27/digger-tidbits-vets-make-prison-gang-list-docs-say-not-so-fast-on-emergency-rule-midwifery-bill-gets-fix/) but they really do keep out of the limelight. I think it's amusing that because certain clubs have bad history, have appeared on discovery channel or some other BS documentary, that they are included in this list...when those who keep to themselves but are just as much outlaws are not since they don't have articles written about there debauchery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.9 (talk) 14:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You're the one who provided sources which confused the two. My whole point is that we can't be adding this club to the list if most of our citations muddle the issue.

If we don't have reliable information about this club, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I don't get the point anyway. You think it's cool that they keep out of the news, yet now you think it's a good thing to have Wikipedia draw attention to them? Which is it? If you respect them for not seeking publicity, then why are you trying to publicize them? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Just trying to point out the difference between the two clubs. VNV MC USA which is a veteran mc and VNV MC Northeast which is an Outlaw Motorcycle Club. Big difference and I thought the point of Wikipedia was to share information, that's all I was trying to do. The latter of which should be on this list since they are a significant outlaw motorcycle club, the former should be listed on the list of motorcycle clubs because of their significance in the non-outlaw mc world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.9 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

If we set the bar for "significance" to be "mentioned in passing in 1 or 2 local news articles", we'd have a list of around 2,000 clubs here. We don't want 2,000 names here. We need to set the bar higher than that. If VNV Northeast's goal is to stay under the radar, more power to them. They're well under Wikipedia's radar. The other one, VNV MC, is already on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling/to do; I added it in 2010. If you want to go ahead and write it, you could start at Wikipedia:Your first article. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Since this is not going to be added, please delete the above text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.9 (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

We actually keep a record of talk page discussions for future reference. It helps provide transparency when someone wants to understand how an article got the way it is. And in the future more editors might re-examine this and reach a different conclusion. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines.

Is there some particulars reason to remove this? Is it causing harm? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:39, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess to agree with your earlier point, if they want to be searchable they will request this to be added, so to respect that I wish to have this article request removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.9 (talk) 16:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Editnotice added

I requested an admin to add an editnotice to this page as it has been a perennial magnet for inappropriate entries, despite the commented warning text in the article itself. – Brianhe (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

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Aryan Brotherhood

Aryan Brotherhood MC was recently removed from the list. I did some research on Google Books and it looks like many sources say Aryan Brotherhood are associated with, or spawned, motorcycle gangs but I couldn't see one saying there is a so-called Aryan Brotherhood MC. Examples:

• Essentials of Corrections. p. 208. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help), "Aryan Brotherhood [in prisons] ... maintains ties with motorcycle gangs on the outside"
• 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment: Emerging Trends. Federal Bureau of Investigation. p. 82., Aryan Brotherhood listed in Washington for example, but no such MC
• Thomas Barker. Biker Gangs and Transnational Organized Crime. p. 130., "An Aryan Brotherhood member formed the outlaw motorcycle gang The Order of the Blood MC...its criminal networks were financed and managed by the Aryan Brotherhood and The Pagans Motorcycle Gang [sic]."

– Brianhe (talk) 09:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I also saw several articles saying they had ties with outlaw MCs. I don't think we have a source saying they are an outlaw MC, so putting them on the table is probably inaccurate. We could add another section listing organizations that "finance and manage" motorcycle gangs, or we could just add a description too outlaw motorcycle club. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

RE: No Tribe, no Thunderguard?

Both are big support clubs for the Pagan's and are still operating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.13.101.222 (talk) 17:55, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

So be bold, and add them! Cite your sources. Garth of the Forest (talk) 19:59, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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Moving this content to List of motorcycle clubs

Please see Talk:List of motorcycle clubs#Bringing content here. Thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:34, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Night Wolves

Should Night Wolves be here?

• Gang: Telegraph IB Times Guardian
• Club: CBC NY Times
• Group: Newsweek US Treasury

Many press sources call them a motorcycle gang but some also call them a club. ☆ Bri (talk) 00:33, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

If they're engaged in territorial or membership or allegiance disputes or alliances with the major ones -- Hells Angels, Bandidos, Vagos, etc., then they're in the outlaw MC sphere. Non-outlaw clubs co-exist with outlaw clubs, and are not a threat to them, because they don't compete for geographical territory, puppet clubs, drug markets, etc. So if the Night Wolves did have a shoot out with a puppet club over changing allegiance to the Bandidos, they're an outlaw MC, 1% club, or motorcycle gang, whatever term you like. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:42, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

They are hard to classify. Sort of a biker gang turned paramilitary and adopted by the Russian government. I don't know of any biker gang that is also a de facto nuclear power. Notwithstanding, The Guardian speaks of a rival gang here. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:14, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

That's an interesting question. It really depends on which definition of "outlaw motorcycle club" one subscribes to, as to how one would answer this question. If we go with the original meaning of the term, as in "not an AMA sanctioned club", then, I guess, yes, although, in context, the descriptor "outlaw motorcycle club" is really describing something that originated in North American post-WWII culture, not eastern Europe. Also, they are not "outlaw" from a government perspective in their home country, where they seem to have close ties to Putin and his imperialistic kleptocracy. They're a bit of an anomaly in the biker culture, primarily because they didn't originate in the west, like the vast majority of the longer lived outlaw MCs. I'd say - leave them in, since our own western governments consider them to be "outlaw". Garth of the Forest (talk) 20:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

This entire Wikipedia entry...

...Should be trashed. It’s incoherent, incorrect, stupid, completely disorganized, poorly written and flat-out admitted speculation in most sections. Seriously, WHY is this shit even here? It ruins Wikipedia’s credibility. This is the worst shit I’ve ever read on here. DLNC (talk) 08:21, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello, DLNC. This is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Including you. So, get right to work. Study our policies and guidelines, and improve this article. Thanks. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This entry is beyond salvation.

No way I’d waste my time trying to “improve” this entire entry: “List of Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs”. I might be willing to help write one from scratch but to edit this junk would be like trying to polish a turd. It ain’t happening. DLNC (talk) 12:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Maybe User:Somebody "Notme" Else will get to it, then. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

This article needs to be deleted.

This article serves no useful purpose. It is defining an "outlaw motorcycle club" as "In the United States, such motorcycle clubs are considered "outlaw” if they are not registered and sanctioned by the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) and do not adhere to the AMA's rules." The AMA is a non-profit organization and holds no authority over the lawfulness or outlaw nature of motorcycle clubs that don't participate in it. Add a column to "List of motorcycle clubs" called "AMA Recognized" or something, and add Yes/No/Not Applicable values.

Curzyk (talk) 16:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

There is more than one way to define "outlaw motorcycle club", and the AMA criterion is only one. The original AMA definition of "outlaw" was clubs that weren't whites only, so it changes with time. The FBI's designation of "motorcycle gangs" is another criterion, and the general consensus of reliable sources is another. There is not one single authority; there's multiple sources. Wikipedia puts things in lists and categories when there is a substantial amount of evidence in sources to justify it, without needing 100% agreement among all sources. We have List of pirate films even though not everyone agrees what makes a "true" pirate film, or spaghetti western, or biker film for that matter.

I'd personally like to delete this list and all the articles on it because it's annoying to have to maintain them, but within Wikipedia's structure, our coverage of outlaw bikers isn't going anywhere, so we have to make the best of it.

Generally, what all of our sources tend to agree on can be boiled down to this: [[outlaw motorcycle club]s defend territory. They work to keep other outlaw clubs from operating within a territory without their permission, typically using threats or violence to do so. The basic reason why it matters whether or not other outlaw clubs operate is that they are engaging in rackets, like drug sales, prostitution and sex trafficking, extortion, fencing stolen vehicles, etc. Criminal rackets are aggressively territorial. They ignore non-outlaw clubs because non-outlaw clubs don't infringe on their rackets.

Conversely, an ordinary motorcycle club has no interest or desire to limit the activity of other clubs in the same area the operate in. Brand clubs or rider clubs or whatever are unaffected by the presence of other clubs. So when an article describes a club as falling into the outlaw/1%er/gang category, it generally comes down to the fact that they're getting into territorial fights.

If there's an article on this list that you think doesn't qualify, by all means, go to that article's talk page and cite your evidence, or explain why you think the sources cited there are wrong. We can change any article that is incorrectly calling a club "outlaw", and then it would be removed from this list. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Curzyk: here are the instructions for asking for deletion: WP:AFD#Nominating article(s) for deletion. By the way, my "vote" would be keep. But you are allowed to propose it. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Recent large expansion

This edit has a lot of names of clubs that seem to just exist, or had a guy somewhere do a felony. That's not encyclopedic. See WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:MILL. A club's name appearing on some list of clubs somewhere isn't enough. The major outlaw motorcycle gangs have *thousands* of duck clubs trailing in their wake, and there's thousands of obscure clubs all of the world. We don't list the name of every town's book club or bowling league for the same reasons. This list is for outlaw motorcycle clubs that are actually noteworthy in some way, if not entirely notable per WP:ORG. Though that would be nice. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:52, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Satan's Choice

Satan's Choice was once the largest Canadian MC. It's mostly what became Hell's Angels in Ontario I think.

Yet no mention of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.194.14.163 (talk) 01:36, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Majestics MC since 1969 Brooklyn

Majestics MC 1969 Brooklyn NY 2601:19C:8101:21E0:DC30:C631:F85E:A810 (talk) 05:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)