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Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.
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The drive-by IP claiming "pro-Unionist" bias[edit]
Deleting categories referring to McKee as British seems like an attempt to relitigate The Troubles and express residual bitterness that Northern Ireland rejected the notion of a 32-county United Ireland. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 06:52, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What I came to this article interested to read, but did not find, is whether or not McKee herself identifies as British; and moreover, did she have a Protestant or a Catholic upbringing? Bẽeiçon (talk) 20:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a major omission in the article: there's no mention of her upbringing or how she identified in terms of nationality, religion, politics etc. Jim Michael (talk) 19:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Northern Irish journalist vs "journalist from Northern Ireland"[edit]
the IP who claims the article has a pro-unionist bias also claims that describing someone as Northern Irish, rather than Irish or British, goes against the MOS - but does it? Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, no guidance on this has been codified into MOS:IRELAND (for people born after the 1920s, anyway). "From Northern Ireland" is mentioned on talk as a common way of avoiding disputes over "Irish" vs "British". In this case, however, this article already avoids "Irish" and "British", and I don't see why "...from Northern Ireland" would be any better or worse than "Northern Irish". Are there any sources documenting which of these four descriptors McKee identified with? (Or can we get a sense of how the preponderance of sources refer to McKee? I do see both "journalist from Northern Ireland" and "Northern Irish journalist" in use; at a glance, the latter appears more common.) -sche (talk) 01:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Journalist from Northern Ireland (or Northern Irish journalist) is the most neutral description because it eliminates the Irish versus British national identity and because that is indeed the country she is from. Northern Ireland exists as a country regardless of whether a resident identifies as British or Irish or likes or dislikes that. Even the most hardened Irish republican accepts Northern Ireland exists even though they argue and even campaign for it to be merged/united with the Republic of Ireland.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:02, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is currently the only article that uses {{Derry-note}}, so I thought I'd drop a note here that I've modified that template to bring it in line with WP:SELFREF. The template was previously an editorial note about Wikipedia policy, as one might see in a newspaper, which generally go against SELFREF: This means that while articles may refer to themselves, they should not refer to "Wikipedia" or to the Wikipedia project as a whole (e.g. "this website"). The stated goal of the template was to mirror {{Kosovo-note}}, and I think that it still accomplishes that; I'll note that the latter template is SELFREF-compliant itself.
To forestall concerns that this could lead to an increase in WP:DERRY-noncompliant edits, I've also added a hidden-text note right after where the template is transcluded into the article's lede. (Someone could also create an editnotice, especially given that this page is within the scope of WP:TROUBLES.) I'm pinging User:Pigsonthewing, who set up the template, in case he has any concerns. -- Tamzin (they/she) | o toki tawa mi. 22:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tamzin: No problem with the thrust of your edit to the template it (I've restored the former wording, as its documentation, for clarity), but I am concerned that your claim "This article uses Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county" is false in this case (the article does not refer to the county) and will be false in others, equally. Likewise "This does not apply when the words appear as part of organizations' names or other proper nouns." does not apply to this article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Pigsonthewing: Hmm. Good point. Might I suggest this?
There is a longstanding Derry/Londonderry name dispute. This article follows the approach that Derry refers to the city and County Londonderry refers to the county (outside of organizations' names, which may follow their own approaches).
The way I see it, it's still accurate to say that that's the approach any given article takes, even if the article doesn't implicate all three of those provisions. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 11:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me, thanks. Do you have any thoughts on increasing usage of the template? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:30, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cool; I've updated it. As to your question, my interest here came from the MOS side, not the Troubles side, but, since you've asked, I'd say it comes down to whether a reader would legitimately be confused. I don't think the template would be appropriate on any random article that happens to use the name "Derry" or "Londonderry," where the only people who are "confused" are probably going to be POV-warriors who in fact know exactly what's going on, whom we can (try to) divert using hidden-text notes and editnotices. But if there's an article where a reader might earnestly wonder, "Why did it say Derry earlier but Londonderry now? Wait, is that the same place or not?", either because they're unfamiliar with the naming dispute (like most people from outside the UK and Ireland), or because they're familiar with it but haven't intuited Wikipedia's preferred compromise, then yeah, that minimizes reader confusion and is thus a good thing. I imagine that would come out to a few dozen articles transcluding the template—ones like this one that are specifically about the Troubles or related events; ones that use both names in different contexts; etc. -- Tamzin (they/she) | o toki tawa mi. 17:42, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While a note made sense while this was a high-traffic article, it makes no sense now. There are 3,339 pages that link to Derry, only this one uses the template. It should simply be removed as no longer needed. FDW777 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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