Talk:Míster Danger

Major rewrite and cleanup needed

• Starting with the obvious, this article doesn't cite a single source.
• Next, major copyediting is needed. The reader encounters statements like "has used more recently" in the first line of the article. What is Míster in an English-language dictionary, followed by an English word, "Danger"? Done.
• Weasle words are present throughout:
  • borrowing of this name may have
  • may be linked to
  • another possible explanation
• No notability of this term is established.

All of these together result in an article which reads like a pourly-sourced personal essay and original research.

Sandy 19:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC) Striking items which have been corrected. Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Sandy, in response to your criticisms:

-The article was a summary based on a personal reading of the text. As a result, I only meant for the article to serve as a stub.

-I'm not sure how the statement "has used more recently" is problematic? Perhaps I should have given a time frame for usage of the epithet (i.e., 2005-2006)? Also, "Míster Danger" is the novel's author's own spelling of the character's moniker. I spelled it as it is spelled in the novel.

Thank you for explaining about the accent in the name. I have copyedited the article, and struck above items attended to. Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

-I apologize for inserting my POV into the article. I now realize I should have been more careful in this endeavor. However, I wanted to give readers a clearer context in attempting to imbue the moniker with political meaning. This "context," admittedly, was largely the result of my own interpretation of Chávez's usage of the moniker.

I think the article is now of appropriate encyclopedic tone, containing statements that can easily be referenced, and conveys the idea well. Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

-I assume you are responsible for the disclaimers and notices posted on the article. If so, could you please take a moment to righten, or at the very least point out, the errors in spelling, grammar, usage, tone, style, and voice within the article?

I have copyedited the article (which is much easier and faster then explaining each item), and have left cite tags for items that should be cited. The book should be listed, footnoted, ISBN included, reliably sourced references indicating Chavez's use of this term should be referenced, and a reference for the statement that the song is about Chavez is needed. Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

-Finally, the notability of the term is that the President of Venezuela has used it in on numerous occasions on State television, during public speeches, and in discourse in general, in referencing his counterpart in the United States. Obviously this is of import to any understanding of the current climate of diplomatic affairs between the respective nations and, more specifically, between their state leaders. I do not understand why this would have to be explicitly noted within the article?

Notability must be established in all Wiki articles, or they are subject to AfD. You can establish notability by including two high-quality, prominent references to Chavez's use of the term (for example, search on the New York Times, LA Times, sources like that ...) Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

As a friendly comment, I have to say that it would behoove you to be more forgiving in the tone of your criticisms. Antagonizing the founding efforts of other Wikipedians is simply counter-productive. Instead, try to remember to always be constructive and descriptive in your criticism. This way you might avoid contradicting the original purpose of your criticism.

Please try to remember that articles on Wikipedia are built by numerous editors, so criticism is never aimed at any one editor. I didn't intend to aim it particularly at your writing, as the article history shows numerous contributors. I apologize for any unintended effects :-) Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The previous version (below) was largely speculative, original research, and had numerous weasle words, but if you have reliable sources to cite any of it, the content below would enhance the article. Statements like "Chavez may have" have no place in an encyclopedia, as they are original research and speculation. Hope this helps, Sandy 18:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That said, I will be working to properly source the article, as well as any accompanying explanations (political or otherwise) of Chávez's use of the epithet, where appropriate. For now though, because this article deserves some explanation beyond the literary origins of the term, I will include a copy of the article as it was before your excisions. The previous version follows:

Míster Danger (or "Míster Peligro," Rómulo Gallegos uses both but seems to prefer the former) is an epithet that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has used more recently to refer to United States President George W. Bush. The name comes from the novel Doña Bárbara, written by Venezuelan novelist and former president Rómulo Gallegos. In the novel, Mr. Danger (the name appears in English) is an Irish-American residing mostly in Venezuela. He takes to drinking fine whiskey which he brings back from Caracas to the Llanos, where the novel mostly takes place. Mr. Danger allies himself with the much-feared Doña Bárbara, a malevolent and powerful figure from whom the novel's title is derived. Doña Bárbara's infamy stems from her reputation for amassing property in the Llanos through litigation, as well as for her alleged practice of black magic. Together, she and Mr. Danger manage to swindle lands out of unknowing Llaneros' hands and they represent the principal source of opposition to the novel's protagonist's mission to bring law and order to the Llanos. The novel's protagonist, Santos Luzardo, is a Llanos-born lawyer from Caracas who returns to his native land on a short trip to assess his family's landholdings. He ultimately takes it upon himself to rid the region of the pervasive influence of Mr. Danger and Doña Bárbara.

In the context of present political relations between Venezuela and the United States, Chávez´s borrowing of this name may have several interesting implications. The first may be linked to Rómulo Gallegos's use of Mr. Danger as a foreign, American figure who seeks to amass Venezuelan lands through illegitimate means. In this way, the character may represent a statement on the author's behalf regarding the United States' then long-standing principal of "Manifest Destiny." Chávez has often made references to an impending invasion spearheaded by the United States military and recently pointed to a small but well-known island off the coast of Venezuela as a likely launching point (namely, the island of Curaçao). The current Venezuelan head of state has also used the term "imperialist" to refer to the North American leader, a popular term that points to the ever-reaching influence of the United States in world affairs.

Yet another possible explanation of Chávez's usage of the name "Mr. Danger" may point to a more complex and on-going stratagem alleged by the president and that would involve attempts by the Venezuelan opposition and the US government to overthrow his administration. These allegations have been present throughout Chávez's term, particularly following the April 2002 Coup that saw the temporary removal of the head of state from power. In particular, the alliance in Doña Bárbara between the character of the same name and Mr. Danger may represent, for Chávez, an analogous relationship with regards to the current alleged alliance between the Venezuelan opposition and the US government.

Ministry has a song titled "Señor Peligro" on their album "Rio Grande Blood". The song is about U.S. attacks on Hugo Chavez.

Alexescalona 05:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyedit

Wikipedia thanks you Sandy! So you know, I changed back several phrases and grammatical forms to the original to improve the overall flow of the article. Also, "aligns him/herself" is generally reserved for political figures, especially heads of state. Happy writing! Alexescalona 20:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with your change:

Míster Danger, or Míster Peligro (both forms appear in the novel, though the former is more prevalent and serves as the title of a chapter dedicated to the character) is an epithet that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has used to refer to United States President George W. Bush.[citation needed] The name comes from the novel Doña Bárbara, written by Venezuelan novelist and former president Rómulo Gallegos.[citation needed]

puts mention of the novel before you actually mention the novel (which is confusing and distracting to the reader), makes the opening sentence too long, introduces too much detail in the opening sentence, and leaves out the name more commonly used in English (no accent). Sandy 01:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

-Agreed! The necessary changes have been made. Alexescalona 15:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It is distracting to the reader to see mention of the name parenthetically in an opening sentence of a paragraph:

In the novel, Míster Danger (the name appears in English) is an Irish-American residing mostly in Venezuela.

-Couldn't agree more! Though to be more precise, the name is not parenthetically mentioned per se, as is the fact that the name appears in English. Alexescalona 15:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Textual redundancies, not good English:

Together, sShe and Míster Danger manage to swindle lands out of unknowing Llaneros' hands and ...

and so on. This is inferior prose, repetitious, and doesn't tightly convey the ideas, but whatever. Sandy 02:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps you're being a bit liberal with the red pen. I agree that "together" is redundant, if only because we pointed out the conspiratorial alliance between these two characters in the previous sentence. However, I do not see how "manage to" is at all superfluous, much less redundant. If anything it conveys the fact that, not without effort (think litigation), these two plotters manage to swindle lands out of, well, unknowing Llaneros' hands! On the other hand, "hands" is entirely necessary as it is the object the prepositional phrase "out of" and, in keeping with correct usage and style for an encyclopedic entry, you have to remember that you can't extract something out of people per se (even though we say things like "swindling money out of people"). Rather, you remove things from their posession. Moreover, the term "hands" adds emphasis to the swindling and, to knowing readers, conveys subtexts of meaning. Thus, someone who had read the novel might recall that, in the novel, illiterate Llaneros were pressured to sign deeds handing over their lands without knowing what exactly they had conceded. Indeed prose, by definition, is that which conveys meaning, whether that meaning is on the surface (i.e., literal meaning) or beneath. Alexescalona 15:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Meet Tony, one of the core of serious copyeditors and FA reviewers on Wikipedia. Here are Tony's exercises to help develop more precise writing. It makes no difference to me if the article doesn't achieve excellent prose, as long as it gets cited, and doesn't contain POV. I removed the unreferenced tag: are you planning to add references ? Sandy 15:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Entonces, Sandy, ya vas a para' con la jodedera?! While I gladly accept and respond to helpful comments and contributions in my editing sessions on Wikipedia (after all, that's what it's all about!), it appears there is a limit to how forthcoming and cooperative one can be in these undertakings. That said, I will take your final response as a conclusion to our prolonged discussion. Until next time! Alexescalona 16:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No es pa'joder. What I'm interested in is references, at any rate. Best, Sandy 16:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ministry's song

It appears that Ministry is using projected images of Chávez when rendering "Señor Peligro" in their European Tour [1] JRSP 23:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have never gotten around to figuring out if Wiki allows Youtube as a reliable source, and I don't even know where to check. Anyone? Sandy 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is a RS either, I was only saying the claim that the song is related to HC is likely to be true. Also found some pointers in blogs. Some OR: the lyrics say "Venezuela watch your back, Señor Peligro is on the attack", the phrases spoken in Spanish at the end of the song appear to be picked up from HC speeches. I think eventually some RS will be found, specially if the song is released as a single. JRSP 02:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

JRSP-Acabo de ver el video. Los samplings no suenan a Huguito pa' na'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexescalona (talk • contribs)

They did not sample HC directly, it is somebody else speaking in Spanish at the end but the words are taken from his speeches. Some funny double translation (Spanish to English to Spanish again) like "no cambiaremos sangre por aceite" JRSP 21:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha! Didn't catch that one ... please excuse the misinterpration on my part.Alexescalona 05:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'd like to include the link to the aporrea article (http://aporrea.org/dameverbo.php?docid=74802). The reason for this is that the article includes an audio clip of Chavez uttering the moniker. This should serve as a pretty good source for the correct pronunciation of the term. Would this be possible? Alexescalona 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

We don't need an audio clip when there is ample record of it from reliable print sources. Aporrea is a pro-Chavez organization, is not a reliable source by Wiki standards, and neither it nor Venezuelanalysis should be used anywhere on Wikipedia. 16:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Pro-Chavez or not, the site includes an audio source, and I don't see why it would be such bad practice to include one (whenever possible) for ipa transcriptions. After all, the purpose is not to further political views as it is to provide material evidence for a very specific purpose. Also, unless they are phonetic transcriptions, print sources do not convey correct pronunciation. And who said biased sources could not be used on Wiki? Several instances come to mind in which they might be appropriate (say, in articles that pertain directly to content on the sites, if not the sites themselves). Besides which, what's the yard stick for political bias in media?

You may copy the audio clip and upload it to wikicommons. This way you will not need to link to aporrea.org. Just remember to justify fair use (non-comercial, low-quality audio clip) JRSP 16:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Alexescalona 17:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Accent marks

Why is there an accent in "Míster" but not in "Danger". Is this the way Gallegos wrote it? JRSP 21:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for asking and not reading the talk page JRSP 21:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem at all! I wondered about the same thing myself. I think it's because "míster" was a full-fledged Venezuelan Anglicism at the time the novel was written and Danger was Guillermo's last name (even though the novel's narrator doubts the authenticity of that last name). Alexescalona 05:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"Incorrect borrowings"?

Why exactly are Mister Danger and Mr. Danger "both incorrect borrowings of the name" in the novel? They seem to be exact translations. 24.193.49.117 01:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I think "incorrect borrowing" is not the proper term. Gallegos uses "Míster" (with an accent on the "i"), and, originally, he borrowed the word from English (adapting it to Spanish orthography) so I wouldn't say it is incorrect to translate it back to English as "Mister" or "Mr." (that is, returning to English orthography). I would support a deletion of "both incorrect borrowings of the name" leaving only "Mister Danger and Mr. Danger are used commonly in English-language publications". JRSP 02:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)