Talk:MF Doom/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

DOOM vs. Doom

I have no opinion on potential RM's, but I decided to compile the usage of DOOM vs. Doom in reliable news sources, in the hope that it will be useful:

— Goszei (talk) 11:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

This is very helpful. Thanks! Jmill1806 (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Newsmedia should never be relied upon as guidance for an artist's name stylization: virtually all have their own internal style guides dictating how their writers will capitalize companies, brands, products, artists and trade names' within their own pages. Their intent is to wholly disregard the source's original capitalization, and replace it with their own.
Wikipedia, on the other hand, provides examples of retained improper-capitalization of trade names, which follow the defined style and/or trademark guide of the originator. A few examples: id Software, eBay, Chick-fil-A.
In addition, MF DOOM's official website, gasdrawls.com, -maybe worth regarding for the artist's intent- shows in virtually all cases that the capitalization is "MF DOOM".
Finally, in Goszei's compiled list, the journals capitalizing as the artist does are culture journals, while most of those restyling it are news sites, very likely following internal style guides to force "MF DOOM" -> "MF Doom".
— Plausible deniability (talk) 01:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Plausible deniability, I don't agree that the style guides of reliable sources is biasing the results in a way we should discount. On the contrary, these "biases" are exactly what we should look for when we try to answer the question "how do reliable sources write about topic XYZ?". The writing principles of these publications is part of that answer. Popcornfud (talk) 11:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
@Plausible deniability: Yes, MF DOOM stylizes his own name in all-caps. However, we must follow MOS:TM, which states When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should examine styles already in use by independent reliable sources. From among those, choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner. The guidelines says it includes individuals. It also gives several examples illustrating this practice. (it says to avoid: TIME, KISS, ASUS, SONY Mobile) — Goszei (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Is British English right for this article?

As discussed extensively above, Dumile was legally British and never had American citizenship, but spent most of his life in the USA and became notable there first. The article subject seems to be American in every sense other than legal, really. Is there a good reason to use British English over American in the article? Popcornfud (talk) 14:24, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I normally use Oxford spelling for transatlantic articles, but most people don't know what that is so it's kind of useless.
Here, unlike in the lede, the choice between British and American is entirely an editors' judgment call. I think American English is more appropriate in this case. He spent far more time in the US than in the UK. If we do AmEng, we should presumably also do mdy dates. There's a script that quickly converts date formats, but for some reason I can't get it to work on my account. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
If no one has any objection I'll make the necessary changes. Popcornfud (talk) 21:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I put the British English templates on the page and talk page, mainly to enforce some consistency during the initial flurry of edits. With additional perspective, it seems right to switch to American English (+ mdy date formatting). Regardless of Dumile's citizenship status, one of the things that most distinguished him as an American was his use of language. —BLZ · talk 21:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates is a script I've seen used to quickly convert dates, but for some reason I can't get it to work. If someone can get it to work, might be worth running to save some time. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:50, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

He is most notable in America and spent most of his life there. Article should be American spelling. Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2021

Mf Doom without all capitals needs to be changed to MF DOOM in all instances. The song All Caps lyrics are very iconic and quotable and DOOM's insistence that we refer to him in this way would be appreciated by the fans. TheAlmightyBosh (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. See the many, many discussions above on this page. We also don't make changes to articles based on what the fans would appreciate. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, I wonder if we should make some sort of pre-emptive banner about this, similar to banner on the Sega Genesis page - see this. Popcornfud (talk) 19:36, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Another example at Joe Biden. Popcornfud (talk) 19:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Popcornfud, Completely agree—do you know how to make one? I don't, but I think it would save us a lot of time and annoyance. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, looking into it now. Popcornfud (talk) 19:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, I found some instructions here, and attempted to follow them, but I didn't have a lot of confidence in what I was doing so didn't save any changes. I put some draft text we can use for such a warning in my sandbox - feel free to edit it. I have to shoot off for now, so if you (or anyone) feels like exploring further, be my guest. Otherwise I'll see if I can pick this up again soon. Popcornfud (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Popcornfud, Not a banner, but I've used your text at Talk:MF Doom/FAQ following the model at Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. Hopefully this works OK. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:45, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Popcornfud Ughhh this last string of edits (beginning with Special:Diff/999196699) has me thinking that we might need a banner too, since people keep ignoring the many, many inline comments … AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, I think it should be page-protected again so only registered accounts can edit. We had it before but it's expired, and clearly it's still needed. Popcornfud (talk) 00:55, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Popcornfud, You read my mind—just requested it. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

FYI I just created Template:Editnotices/Page/Talk:MF Doom. Hopefully it should slow down the constant edit requests. Let me know if it needs changes, I'm pretty new to this stuff! Sro23 (talk) 03:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

MF DOOM birthday

LMAO y'all wiki editors are all dumb af. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ2eXJjBAL_/

Seriously.

Is this not legit: https://twitter.com/stonesthrow/status/1348010993524240385. Stones Throw: Egon/PBW?

Ketlag (talk) 05:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

DJ Premier has confirmed that DOOMS date of birth is July 19th 1971 and not January 9th. Richand3027 (talk) 04:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Richand3027, Please provide a source for this claim. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:23, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Ketlag, no, it's not. Please review WP:RS. If reliable sources report his birthday differently, we will change it. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@AleatoryPonderings: There might actually be something here. The source we currently have for January 9 is AllMusic (https://www.allmusic.com/artist/mf-doom-mn0000220563), which is rather weak. I am inclined to consider DJ Premier and Stones Throw (particularly the latter) more reliable on the specific point, unless another source comes to light. — Goszei (talk) 05:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Goszei, I am not inclined to base basic biographical information on tweets and Instagram posts. It seems likely that it's true; if it is, surely a secondary source will confirm and pick it up. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@AleatoryPonderings: I think for this specific piece of information, these sources are more than acceptable. WP:RSPRIMARY says secondary sources are preferred, but when all of the weight of primary sources (his record label, a District Court, and himself on CSPAN) is against a weak secondary source, we should follow the guidance that specific facts may be taken from primary sources.
Here is the evidence I alluded to above:
  • a criminal legal document from the District Court of Maryland ([1]), which shows his birthdate as July 13.
  • he testified to the Senate on April 17, 1991 ([2] (CSPAN: [3])), and introduced himself as being "19 years old" -- if he was born in January 1971, he would have been 20 years old
Short of looking at his birth certificate, I don't think that secondary sources can do any better than this. — Goszei (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Goszei, OK, feel free to add. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:35, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

bell hooks vs. DOOM

Why is it that Black feminist writer bell hooks gets her non-standard capitalization preferences respected on her article (as she should!) but DOOM doesn't? Is the standard for having your capitalization preferences respected on your Wikipedia article "whether or not you managed to convince the white media to respect them"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.210.224 (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Because the majority of WP:RS do not put his name in all caps (see Talk:MF_Doom#DOOM_vs._Doom), whereas (presumably) the majority of reliable sources do capitalize bell hooks' name as she prefers. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
See MOS:LCITEMS: Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). Popcornfud (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Associated Acts: Ghostface

So DoomStarks or whatever is folklore. Ghost didnt even know Metal Finger beats till someone told him. I don't really think he merits a place under assoc. acts in the infobox. Ketlag (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2021

Relevance of reference *105 in regards to Tim burgess listening party. Not relevant to his death. Remove 114.76.59.5 (talk) 09:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bestagon (talk) 23:13, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

MF DOOM

Throughout this article, "MF DOOM" is spelt as "MF Doom." His moniker is in capital letters, as mentioned in the song "All Caps." RealWingus 12:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

What happened to that dope picture like seriously - Gin Rummy 7/15/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.134.68 (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Changed all instances of "MF Doom" and "Doom" to "MF DOOM" as this is how Dumile wants his name to be referenced. This was mentioned in his song "All Caps" --Threatis 01:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

^^^I did the same thing as this guy and all my edits were reverted. I do not understand why Wikipedia continues to do this, as DOOM has explicitly stated the only proper way to spell his name is with all capital letters. It took quite a bit of time to make these edits, and I don't appreciate being told that they "weren't constructive" just because Wikipedia refuses to acknowledge they are spelling his name incorrectly. I would like an apology, pronto. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.197.160.100 (talk) 14:30, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Me too, let's try this again. Unfortunately, since I can't change how article's are titled I had to leave some so that links weren't broken. Maybe if I just removed the line that says his name is MF Doom 'Stylized as MF DOOM' and replaced it with "His name is MF DOOM" people would get it...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.75.212.8 (talk) 02:42, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

As of 19.09.19 I did the same things that you did - changed the name to MF DOOM, but the changes were reverted by JesseRafe without any explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.97.31.244 (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You're replying to a fourteen-year-old thread. It's been discussed dozens of times, many on this very page. The explanation has been given hundreds of times. The rules at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters apply. Stylization preferences do not trump the MOS. JesseRafe (talk) 19:04, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

That's cool and all, but it's not stylization preference. The man's name is not MF Doom, Mf Doom or mf doom. It's MF DOOM. He says so clearly. When you say "MF Doom", you are not refering to the character created by Dumile. You're making one up. Accuracy trumps the MOS. 89.115.183.71 (talk) 21:08, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

LOL, OK bro! JesseRafe (talk) 15:39, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Is MF DOOMs preferred capitization non-conventional? Sure, but he is a non-conventional person. It’s disappointing that a bigoted policy would be defended here. Especially by individuals who’s profile claims they stands for a more welcoming Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:B:9A2:0:0:0:60 (talk) 09:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Manual of style states:

"only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia."

MF DOOM in this form definitely fulfills this criterion, as it is indeed capitalised in a substantial majority of sources. It must be changed to capitals. Gwaza (talk) 07:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

No, it's not. See Talk:MF_Doom#DOOM_vs._Doom, where a comprehensive tally shows that the majority of sources do not capitalize the name. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 07:17, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

JesseRafe, please note that there is precedence for all caps named musical act within Wikipedia. See JID or MGMT. Ocasta181 (talk) 07:53, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

This is shockingly disrespectful and anybody involved in preventing the change should be ashamed of themselves. I think that there is no more reliable source for the name of an act than the act's creator himself, and hiding behind the fact that numerous news outlets also chose to disrespect him is transparently petty. Gorkeadbangah (talk) 16:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

His instagram name is literally ‘MF DOOM. ALL CAPS. Why does it keep getting changed to ‘MF Doom’? Btad16 (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Btad16, Look at the FAQ at the top of this page. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry if it’s getting annoying but it’s MF DOOM, not MF Doom, please change it to all caps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:240:4B80:5500:BC0B:BDC1:28ED:7B3B (talk) 19:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Doom wasn't American. He was not born on U.S. soil, and he never got naturalized/citizenship. Just remove it. The article later says that he was denied entry to the U.S. on returning from a tour... because he is not American. Such an obvious oversight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6080:FE02:E1A:4D36:FE4C:31E:F54C (talk) 05:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Nationality (1 January 2021)

There is a slow-motion edit war going on about Dumile's nationality. Two things seem clear:

  • He spent most of his life in the US, working exclusively with US artists
  • He did not have US citizenship

I think "British-American" is a reasonable statement in light of these two facts. Unknown Temptation evidently disagrees. Let's discuss. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:04, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"British-American" is the right call. We do not define people's nationality purely on their legal status. It's just one consideration. It's completely misleading not to describe Dumile as American, considering he was all but born there - he lived most of his life there, and that is where he became notable and produced most of his work. Popcornfud (talk) 22:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
What have the RS been describing him as? We should stick to whatever they call him. Sro23 (talk) 22:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Good point. Most seem to studiously avoid calling him either. The phrase of choice seems to be "London-born, Long Island–raised" or variants ([4], [5], [6]. The ones that do come down on one side seem to say American (US … hip hop maven, American rapper). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:18, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
That was my finding too, when I was looking at this earlier. If you search for "British rapper", "American rapper" or "British-American rapper", you get results in RSs for all three. Popcornfud (talk) 22:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Why not "a British-born rapper who spent most of his life in the United States"? We're in the business of facts here, not interpreting and reinterpreting law and philosophy. Unknown Temptation (talk) 22:23, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
    That seems fine, too. I think an {{efn}} explaining the details might be in order, no matter what we settle on. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:25, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Or "British-born rapper active in the United States", or something else to that effect. I don't know. Sro23 (talk) 22:28, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Constructions like "a British-born rapper who spent most of his life in the United States" seem mealy-mouthed to me when we have an abundance of sources that describe him as either American or British-American. Popcornfud (talk) 22:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I like "British-born rapper active in the United States". As "British-American" seems contentious, I think "British-born rapper active in the United States" is a good compromise position. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, without wanting to be a dick about it... it's so far contested by one editor. I'd be inclined to see if more people complain. Popcornfud (talk) 23:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree that "British-American" is good enough for the lead sentence. Quite rigorous sources, such as this academic essay (via Google Books), describe him as "British-American" without further elaboration. It would be a bit strange to call him simply "British", even with qualifications later in the very same sentence, since UK publications did not consider him to be a "British person", but rather an American person who happened to have British citizenship. Consider these two sentences from a 2012 article in The Guardian, which of course is a UK outlet: "The US underground/alternative hip-hop maven was actually born in the capital (his parents, originally from Rhodesia and Trinidad, emigrated to the States when he was a baby), which is why he has a British passport. He moved here after a mix-up at customs in America, during which he was refused entry back into the country in which he's resided for most of his 41 years."
The more complicated details of his national identity can be described later in the article. I've been looking into statements Doom himself made about his national identity and added a bit more about his early years in this edit. He grew up and spent most of his life in the United States, and indeed according to his statements the fact that he happened to have been born in the UK at all, rather than the US, was a more-or-less random accident of fate. —BLZ · talk 23:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I would like to suggest "British-born American" as an alternative, as even "British-American" might be too strong considering the incidental nature of his birth (I agree with the sentiments expressed by BLZ above). A lot of the sources stop short of calling him "British" at all, and stick to "London-born" only. There's certainly a case for "British-American", though, considering his later London residence and lifelong British citizenship. — Goszei (talk) 05:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I tend to agree with this on the grounds that he more or less just happened to be born in London, but I don't think "British-American" is too strong, given the fact that British was the only citizenship he held throughout his entire life definitely. RS refer to him in numerous ways but British-born or London-born seem to be dominant, so that's a further argument for that too. PraiseVivec (talk) 2 January 2021
"British-born American" seems best to me personally, but "British-American" is also accurate and encyclopedic and the longer "a British-born rapper who spent most of his life in the United States" is fine where there is room for explanation. Jmill1806 (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@AleatoryPonderings, Popcornfud, Unknown Temptation, and Brandt Luke Zorn: Any further comments regarding "British-American" vs. "British-born American"? I think they have similar, but not identical, connotations. Under the assumption that we need a nationality for the lead:
"British-American" was used in at least one high-quality source (that BLZ provided above), but a majority of sources forgo nationality labels in favor of "London-born, Long Island-raised" or similar. I think this is most consistent with "British-born American" – in my mind at least, "British-American" carries a connotation of ancestral origin/cultural connection, more than it connotes "birthright citizen". The definition given in our Wikipedia article for "British Americans" for example is completely inconsistent with how we are using it here. There is also the matter of conciseness, but my concern about this overrides my concern about using an extra word. — Goszei (talk) 00:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Tbh I'd never heard of the notion of "British Americans" before, but agree that doesn't seem accurate. I don't really know why nationalities are standardly required, but if we include one I think "British-born—or even "London-born"—American" is good. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I have to say I don't like "British-born American". There is the conciseness argument, but it's not just that it's only one word longer, it's a gnarlier grammatical construction altogether.
And more than that, it just seems mealy-mouthed and unnatural to me, a term that's bending over backwards to avoid saying something else. If someone is British-born, and this is significant enough to the subject to call it out in the lead (as it is here imo), then they're British in at least one meaningful sense, so why not just call them British? (Alongside whatever other nationalities they may hold, I mean.) Why do we have to qualify that as "British-born"? If someone is "British-born" but not "British" what are we saying about them exactly?
We have people posting here every day insisting that Doom wasn't American because he never had American citizenship, as if legal documentation could be the only measure of someone's nationality, someone's home, in the eyes of either 1) reliable sources 2) any decent human being. But that's a two-way street: having British citizenship and living and working for years in Britain (when your other home country has rejected you) counts for something, too, in a way that "British-born" diminishes IMO.
Of course a lot of what I say here is basically all subjective copyeditor handwringing and you could demolish it with enough reliable sources. Popcornfud (talk) 01:07, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
@Popcornfud: It appears to be a fairly common construction in our articles (see [7], [8], [9], [10]), so I figured it was acceptable. I think in a way, the obits have "bent over backwards" to avoid calling him "British" – of the ones I collected in Talk:MF Doom § DOOM vs. Doom, none used an unqualified "British", and only the AP, Time Magazine, and Billboard used "British-born". That said, none of the obits used "American" either. — Goszei (talk) 06:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry about the kind of late reply, Popcornfud, but I think your characterization of users who tried to remove "American" from the lead is a tad unfair. Similar to how all of you blocking editors from changing "Doom" to "DOOM" aren't doing it out of cold-heartedness, but rather to follow Wikipedia standard convention, when I made this edit, it wasn't because I think only legal documentation can make someone American, but rather I was trying to abide by MOS:ETHNICITY. Also at the time, Brandt Luke Zorn changed the article to EngvarB and claimed sources commonly do not describe him as American, and I trusted his judgement on that, but now I see his opinion has flipped. We're all decent human beings just trying our best. But I recognize sometimes following MOS to a t is counter productive. If this whole national identity issue gets too complex or confusing, perhaps calling him just a rapper and record producer would be enough, with no identifiers before. I'm in the minority here but just a thought. Sro23 (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Sro23, for what it's worth, I did not have your edit in mind when I wrote that. Popcornfud (talk) 01:29, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay. Sorry if my response came across as touchy or defensive. I have chronic insomnia and sleep irregularities and I haven't had a proper sleeping in weeks. Sro23 (talk) 02:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
One can’t be called a citizenship that they never had, just because they were or may have been a permanent resident. It’s a slippery slope and sends the wrong message to future editors and to readers who trust this website. When that big immigration controversy came out about 21 Savage, people including the BBC, nothing short of blamed us for leading people to believe he was actually born in Atlanta, Georgia because no one cared to verify or add a source for it. People also incorrectly assumed French Montana was an American citizen long before he actually was. Cultural ties and residence are simply not enough, we have to be stringent. This is an encyclopedia. Trillfendi (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
We are not claiming he was an American citizen. We are acknowledging the fact that he spent virtually all his life in the United States. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:32, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

GA?

It occurs to me this isn't so far off from GA status. Some of the mid-career stuff could use expansion/contextualization, but it's doable. Thought I'd put it out there in case anyone has any particular ideas on what needs improvement. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings, I think at a minimum the article needs a section discussing his artistry and style. Popcornfud (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, I was thinking that myself. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I think it's ready for a GA review, but wanted to check with others who've done significant work before nominating. Pinging @Goszei, Popcornfud, and Brandt Luke Zorn; please feel free to add in anyone I missed. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Doom NOT American

Please change British-American to British. This assumes he was a dual citizen of the UK and US. He was not. The article calls DOOM a British-American rapper, however DOOM wasn't American. He was not born on U.S. soil, and he never got naturalized/citizenship. Just remove it. The article later says that he was denied entry to the U.S. on returning from a tour... he had no right to abode in America, because he was not American. Such an obvious oversight. I planned on fixing this issue myself when the lock is taken off. We can pretend DOOM was American but he was not and it is not accurate to call him such. FromTheUnderground (talk) 03:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. See the extensive discussion above at Talk:MF_Doom#Nationality_(1_January_2021). There is consensus that both British and American are appropriate descriptors. "American" need not refer to citizenship; the concept of a person's nationality is broader than their citizenship. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 07:15, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I checked the link. You yourself suggest that no matter what you decide on, something acknowledging this situation should be added. You can just as easily call him a British rapper with an extensive career in the U.S. If he was not a U.S. citizen and just had temporary residence in the U.S. then he was not American in any sense. He was refused re-entry to the U.S. by the government. I don't see how you can argue this. In no way is he American. If he had right to abode through becoming a PERMANENT RESIDENT then I'd be inclined to give up. A U.S. National is described in the U.S. law as follows: Section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) states that “the term ‘national of the United States’ means (A) a citizen of the United States, or (B) a person who, though not a citizen of the United States, owes permanent allegiance to the United States.” Therefore, U.S. citizens are also U.S. nationals. Non-citizen nationality status refers only individuals who were born either in American Samoa or on Swains Island to parents who are not citizens of the United States. FromTheUnderground (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Your personal opinions or legal analysis about what makes someone American is not what matters here. On Wikipedia we make decisions based on consensus, and the consensus favors including American in the lead. We already do explain the specifics of the the situation in detail in the last paragraph of the lead, and more in the body of the article. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 07:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

You yourself claim he is a national when he is not. I gave the U.S.'s definition of a national. Consensus is uneducated on nationality law. In the thread you linked there is even a fallacious claim that nationality is not a legal definition when it is. He was not a dual citizen and not a national. Your page is just wrong. This is not a matter of consensus it is a matter of fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FromTheUnderground (talk • contribs) 07:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I suggest at the very least we discuss the potential change once more and lead with the LEGAL definition of a US national and citizen. The US never made any claim of him and in fact DENIED him re entry into the US. That is pretty cut and dried that for all intents and purposes he was NOT American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FromTheUnderground (talk • contribs) 07:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Legal citizenship is not the only measure of someone's nationality. Popcornfud (talk) 11:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Just so we are clear here: The editors of this page are saying they are willing to put consensus OVER facts? Americans are nationals and citizens of the U.S. under both U.S. municipal law (8 U.S.C 1201) and definitions from dictionaries. Dumile is confirmed in various news reports as not a U.S. citizen or national under the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act. This consensus-over-facts is a profound example of WP:SOAP and WP:FORUM. 50.115.181.52 (talk) 01:03, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Just so we're clear here, Wikipedia has its own set of rules about content and sourcing, and on Wikipedia we follow Wikipedia's rules, not what random people claim are "facts" just because they paste inaccurately cited sections of the US Code, or synthesis based on their interpretations, also known as WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, such as your bizarre reading of what WP:FORUM dictates. 01:17, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Just so we are clear here, you are overturning the definition of “Americans” and calling someone who cited news sources, laws and dictionary definitions of the term as conducting WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH while not coming up with anything on your own? Is there any reliable source calling Dumile an American in the entire article? If not it is a simple case of WP:SOAP and you all were merely advocating that he SHOULD have gotten U.S. citizenship and be American, while not acknowledging the fact that he was NOT a U.S. citizen and has since died before gaining citizenship even if he was eligible and therefore NOT an American. Yes, I understand this is a touchy subject for Dumile’s American fans who feel that he was wronged by the system and I am not disputing that. But facts are facts. 50.115.181.52 (talk) 15:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Reliable sources describe him variously as American, British, both or neither. RSs such as the Guardian call him American. Popcornfud (talk) 16:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, sources have described him as British-American, as British-born American, and simply American. And many obituaries did not try to name his nationality. The Wrap's obit said British-American,[11] so that choice is not unsupported. Binksternet (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
So far a cursory search on the Guardian did not turn up any reference that he is “American”. A 2012 article [12] mentioned him as a “US hip-hop maven” (a term that is not analogous to “American”) while also clarified that he was born to Trinidadian and Zimbabwean parents in London and only carried a British passport. Also in the same article he claimed to have been living in the U.S. for 35 years and did not go beyond than whether he feels American. Other articles that I have found that mentioned his removal from the U.S. specifically avoided the claim that he was American, while certain short obituaries like the one published after the 24th December edit (the first one thar claimed him to be American) claimed him to be British-American. Now, back to the original issue at hand, the same edit by user:Ogabl did not cite any sources and since the Wrap’s article appeared at the height of the edit war (and its briefness) I can assume in good faith that it was written by a staffer with little knowledge to begin with and relied on Wikipedia for backgrounders. My point still stands: show verifiable source, such as the interview that he did with the Guardian, that he is a U.S. citizen or national. If not, then he is British who grew up in the U.S., period. By the way, Ogabl’s own explaination for the edit was that “One of the first few sentences claimed him to be a British rapper, although this is hardly true other than him being born there. He moved to New York at a very young age, has spent 35 years growing up in America, and has an American accent, so describing him as simply British within the first few sentences can misrepresent Doom to the majority of lurkers who won't read everything. Although I recognize that he does not have American citizenship, clarifying he's only British-born is more accurate.” If this is not WP:SOAP then I don’t know what is. 50.115.181.52 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
You keep calling for proof of citizenship but nothing like that matters here. We don't care. We only care about how he is described in WP:SECONDARY sources. You also appear to believe that only an official piece of government paper can make someone American. Being an American includes living in that country, being raised in that country, and contributing to the culture of that country. Binksternet (talk) 06:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect pronunciation

The article incorrectly gives the pronunciation of "Dumile" as /ˈduːmiːleɪ/ DOOM-ee-lay and cites a 2009 New Yorker article as its source on this. While the citation does check out, the source itself has the pronunciation wrong. Dumile himself pronounced his name DOO-muh-lay, as exemplified in his song "Doomsday" and again in the DANGERDOOM song "El Chupa Nibre". I cannot find any other credible sources which give DOOM-ee-lay as the correct pronunciation. The article should instead display the pronunciation as /ˈduːməleɪ/ DOO-muh-lay. --Hostagecat (talk) 02:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! That was how the article appeared for a while. In the time since his death, one of the intervening edits must've changed it. I don't feel like tracking it down, but the 12/31 version of the article and consensus prior agreed with your assertion. JesseRafe (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Alternate spellings

DOOM credited himself as "King Geedorah" multiple times through his career under three different spellings: "King Ghidora" on the 1997 single "Greenbacks" / "Go With the Flow", "King Ghidra" on his 1999 debut album Operation: Doomsday, and "King Geedorah" on his 2003 album Take Me to your Leader. Should these 3 different spellings be reflected in the "Also known as" section of his article's text box? --Hostagecat (talk) 02:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd just keep the one that released the full-length, it looks like he was playing with a spelling and as you note they're all variants, and he has so many alternate names, it'd push us into a disservice to the infobox. Perhaps inline mentions in the body of the article about the spelling variations? JesseRafe (talk) 19:15, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
That's a good idea! I'll find an appropriate spot in the article to mention it. --Hostagecat (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Place of death?

I noticed London has been added as place of death to the infobox, is there any source for this? I haven't heard anywhere about a place of death being confirmed. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I can't find any source that mentions his place of death so I removed it. --Hostagecat (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Earliest recorded instance of the MF DOOM character?

I've noticed this page seems to ignore the 1994 demo of "Gas Drawls" which was broadcast on the December 15 1994 episode of the Stretch and Bobbito Show. Instead, the page jumps to 1997 as DOOM's first appearance and ignores what was apparently an attempt to begin a solo career in 1994. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.18.2.141 (talk) 09:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't ignore it, there's no reliable sources for it. Also, he's introduced as "Doom" not "MF Doom" in the segue, and still as in the Operation:Doomsday version still refers to himself as "X" many times. Think he's still playing with the character, but there's no verifiable documentation on that YT link that meets the bar to include. JesseRafe (talk) 19:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2021

I suggest changing the title of the article from "MF Doom" to "MF DOOM" Where all the letters of the name are capitalized. An important aspect of DOOM's character was that he wanted his name to be capitalized. 2601:244:4700:D390:2C69:3BD0:DA9F:435B (talk) 15:16, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Talk:MF_Doom/FAQ explains this, and it is mentioned in the article that it was normally stylized in all caps. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:28, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2021 (2)

Replace all mentions of "MF Doom" with "MF DOOM," he had stated several times throughout his life to "Remember all caps when you spell the mans name," (referring to himself) and especially after his death, I feel as though it should be correct.

tl;dr Change "MF Doom" to "MF DOOM" Aluereon (talk) 19:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Please look at the edit request above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:34, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Birthday

What is the source for the January 6th, 1971 birthday which is used in this article? I believe the year is correct but not the date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.111.161.30 (talk) 16:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Special Shit?

There is an album in the discography section called "Special Shit" but i cant find anything about this album on the internet. Shouldnt this be removed? Because i think somebody just made this album name up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.64.182.210 (talk) 06:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2021

Change all references to MF DOOM (DOOM) to all caps. I only recently became aware of MF DOOM due to his tragic death. I believe out of respect for the dead and accuracy of the historical record of the artist, that it should be changed to reflect how him, his family, his constituents, and his fans would expect those that discover him in the future to his name in the format he wanted his name to be in. And as for the first reason for lowercase being used I ask this question, If the majority of sources spelt the name of someone's name wrong the majority of the time (eg. Thom, Tom. John, Jon. Ray, Ralph. Melissa, Mylissa, Malissa, Milissa, Melyssa etc.) Which would be chosen? 108.34.209.170 (talk) 19:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: MOS:ALLCAPS, also see the FaQ. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2021

Please change „MF DOOM and DOOM“ in all caps, as it mentions that its stylized that way. Would mean a lot to some fans.

Thanks and stay safe 5.104.90.166 (talk) 21:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see the several previous requests and the FAQ at the top of this page. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 21:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:MF Doom/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: DMT biscuit (talk · contribs) 14:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


Comments TBA.

Lead, Early life, Career & Legacy

  • I don't see why his birthday requires the Twitter citation.
    • Agreed; removed. There was some confusion/controversy about this when it came out, which is why we added it. No longer necessary. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:25, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "As a child, Dumile moved with his family to Long Island, New York. He grew up in Long Beach, New York" → As a child he grew up in Long Beach, New york, remaing a British citizen, never becoming an American citizen.
  • "the first of many pseudonyms,[17]" this is unnesscary as the reader will infer it themselves and it having a separate citation is an unnesscary obstruction of flow.
  • " Rodan. Rodan was later replaced by Onyx the Birthstone Kid → "Rodan; later replaced by Onyx the Birthstone Kid".
  • "In May 1991, Dumile and Onyx testified before the Senate Committee on Rules and Administration in support of a voter registration bill.[20]" - I'm thinking that this should be moved to the personal life considering it doesn't solely relate to Dumile's musical career and the advocation wasn't musically related.
  • "Zev Love X completed the album alone..." - Should the pronoun be Dumile?
  • "His first recorded appearance under the MF Doom name would be on the 1997 mixtape Cuttin’ With Class by DJ S.T.R.E.S.S., which included an early version of the song "Dead Bent". - Although this section is uncited, the preceding NYTimes citation does mention "Dead Bent"–but not DJ S.T.R.E.S.S–I'd recommend implementing it here–unless you're familiar with another RS that provides the same info as the in-line text.
  • "(spelled "Ghidora" on the "Greenbacks" / "Go With the Flow" single[32] and "Ghidra" on Operation: Doomsday[33] and Escape from Monsta Island!)" - This seems trivial and is an obstruction of flow.
  • "Jon Caramanica, in a review of Operation: Doomsday for Spin, emphasized the contrast between Dumile's flow as Zev Love X in KMD and his revised approach as a solo artist: "Doom's flow is muddy, nowhere near the sprightly rhymes of KMD's early days, and his thought process is haphazard."[35]" - Worthwhile addition, but perhaps more fitting in S&A.
    • I'd like to keep this where it is, because it's a comment on the specific album that may not apply more generally. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "A review of Special Herbs volumes 5 and 6 in CMJ New Music Monthly compared Dumile's beats to "soul jazz".[40]" - See above.
  • "Geedorah is credited as producer, but only appears as an MC on two tracks.[43]" - Seems a bit too insular for this article–instead, it'd be better in the relevant article about the album, if not already implemented.
  • "Martelli praised the album, particularly tracks such as "One Smart Nigger" which, in his view, were superior to other artists' attempts at political hip hop.[43]" - See above.
  • The Pitchfork review for Vaudeville Villain should note that it is from 2003, letting the reader understand Dumile's reception at the time.
  • "Madlib and Dumile met in 2002 at the Stones Throw Records headquarters in Los Angeles.[48]" - Seems a bit too insular for this article–instead, it'd be better in the relevant article about the album, if not already implemented.
  • A lukewarm review in Pitchfork emphasized the album's standard lyrical subject matter, but suggested that Dumile intended it to be "merely good or somewhat inconsequential" in order to demonstrate his ability on the mic and behind the boards.[52] Nathan Rabin described Mm..Food as a "crazy pastiche" but argued that it grew more coherent on repeated listening.[53]" given the nature of this article, it'd be perhaps more fitting to note that Pitchfork and The A.V. Club's reviews were lukewarm.
    • Trimmed this bit. Not clear to me that the AV Club review is lukewarm, per se, so I've retained a bit more of that description. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:40, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Patrin observed that Dumile's lyrics and flow—"a focused rasp that's subtly grown slightly more ragged and intense"—were darker in tone on Born Like This than in earlier records.[62]...Steve Yates, reviewing the album in The Guardian, likewise saw Born Like This as hearkening back to Dumile's earlier output.[63]" – Worthwhile addition, but as it deals with the album in the context of his discography, I think it makes more sense to be in S&A.
    • My response here is pretty much the same as above. In my view, the style and artistry section is a general overview of Dumile's output. I think commentary that refers specifically to a given album (as here) is best kept in the section on the album. Just my opinion, though. Pinging Popcornfud as a recent active contributor. PF, DMT and I have been discussing whether some of the critical commentary is best put in the sections on individual albums or in the "style and artistry" section (see above for some further examples). DMT thinks that a good amount of it should go in "style and artistry", while I'd rather keep more of it in individual album sections. What do you think? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:41, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
      No strong opinion here - it seems fine to me in either section. It would fit in the style section, but it also works as running commentary on how each album fits compared to the last, etc. Popcornfud (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
      Thanks, PF. DMT, I leave it to you. If you think this will stand in the way of GA status, I'll see if I can try and rework some of the album-specific commentary into the style and artistry section. Otherwise, it seems like it would work in both places. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:38, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
      I'm satisfied with your and PF's rationale - it's fine as is. DMT biscuit (talk) 15:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Considering a quote right above notes Dumile's enigmatic style, I think: "Upon his death, Variety called Dumile "one of the most celebrated, unpredictable and enigmatic figures in independent hip-hop" should be changed – "Upon his death, Variety noted Dumile's reverence in the independent hip-hop scene".
  • his lyrical style had a large influence on his contemporaries and a younger generation of rappers—an influence on the latter described by Stereogum as "formative". — as both sentences convey, more or less, the same info, best to just mush them together, so to speak.
    • Tried to address the two comments above in this edit. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
      • This a good consolidation - I'd only say that it might be worthwhile including that Baker (2020) mentions that he is one of the "most celebrated figures in independent hip-hop", phrasing per your discretion.

Source Review & Spotchecks

What makes the following reliable sources?

Spotchecks

All the examples checked accurately represented their in-line text.

Note

That should be all my comments - resolve the outstanding qualms and the article will pass. DMT biscuit (talk) 16:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

DMT biscuit, Think I've hit all your comments above; let me know if there are any further issues to address. Thanks so much for your review! AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, I've included one little suggestion regarding your edit in L&I. But other than that, yes, my issues have been addressed. DMT biscuit (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

What should we do about the long-term disruptive editing on this page?

For several months now, IP editors have been changing the name MF Doom to "MF DOOM" to reflect his preferred stylization. There is a consensus not to do this as it goes against Wikipedia style. We added an FAQ to the talk page to explain this, and the page has been temporarily semi-protected several times, but the disruptive editing hasn't stopped.

These are drive-by IP editors who don't care or know about previous discussions. Is there anything else that can be done to help this? Popcornfud (talk) 18:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, I see two options: (1) requesting indefinite, or at least long-term, semi-protection; or (2) putting in a more aggressive warning that opens up when someone tries to edit the page. (Think you recommended something like that a while ago.) I'm not too familiar with policy at WP:RFPP, but that might be worth a shot? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:16, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
AleatoryPonderings, sorry for the late reply, I forgot about this. I think we need #1 - I think many of the IP editors changing this are wilfully disregarding the rules. Popcornfud (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I agree with indef semi-protection. Binksternet (talk) 07:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
But i partially disagree with it. Why not recommending 3 month semi-protection to prevent IPs changing nonsense edit, maybe indef pending changes protection may be helpful too. 36.77.95.63 (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it was done until December, which seems a fair compromise. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:41, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2021

The name MF Doom is allways written as MF DOOM in all capitals, as the name was made by the artist. BeeBux232442 (talk) 09:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See above. Jack Frost (talk) 09:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Spell MF DOOM in all caps

“Just remember all caps when you spell the man name”

Allcaps // Madvillain, Madlib, MF DOOM Phil8838 (talk) 05:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2021

All CAPS when you spell the mans name... change the title from "MF Doom" to "MF DOOM" 155.186.76.228 (talk) 09:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done per consensus to keep it as lowercase, see FAQ for more information   melecie   t 10:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

Change the date of MM...Food to 2007 instead of 2004. 2600:1016:B125:40F7:687C:FDCE:B105:3DA2 (talk) 00:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Not done: That appears to be factually inaccurate ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
MM..FOOD was re-released in 2007 but originally released 16 November 2004. --Hostagecat (talk) 06:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2021

Could the name of the article be changed to MF DOOM?

"Just remember all caps when you spell the man name" 85.27.174.29 (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Not done: See above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of his featuring on Gorillaz' Demon Days?

I added that and my edit got reverted. Is it some kind of secret? CJ Meyer (talk) 16:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

If you want to add that information, please find a reliable source that says so. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
This should definitely be included - that album is a big deal. I don't have time to edit the article right now but here's a source - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55504199 - I'll come back later if no one beats me to it. Popcornfud (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2021

Change Doom to DOOM. Change MF Doom to MF DOOM. Every single instance. That's the proper stylization. All caps when you spell the man's pseudonym. ZacharyCilley (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

New to non-anonymous editing... Why do I need to reply to myself to publish my change request? ZacharyCilley (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Figured that out quick. Nevermind. ZacharyCilley (talk) 20:44, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above and in archives, current consensus is against using all caps. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:23, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

MF DOOM all caps no trick spellin’ GOD what will it take to get through your thick MELON? The only consensus is that you spell the man’s name the right way — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B061:BF5B:415F:4DBD:65D4:7AE0 (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2021

bro all caps wtf 85.132.246.142 (talk) 14:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See previous discussions in the archives. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:44, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

There is clearly a consensus. People come through this talk page bringing it up all the damn time. And the self fart sniffing wiki poindexters keep erasing it whenever people bring it up. The article is now under protected status to prevent “vandalism” YOU ARE THE VANDALS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:1B86:9D00:74F5:69DD:6093:6D76 (talk) 19:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe read the FAQ. clpo13(talk) 19:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, especially secondary sources, and the majority use lowercase"

Okay, so how is his entire presence on the web, so his social media, his apple music, spotify, youtube, etc. and his album covers and merch a less reliable source than some bullshit articles written by people who weren't literally MF DOOM himself? How does someone else possibly have a higher authority on how to spell the man's name? The other point about wikipedia generally avoiding anything in all caps may be a good argument, but this isn't.

But to address that, wikipedia *does* allow exceptions to the no caps rule and I think making this exception here is just a sign of respect.

Also, your FAQ is not visible on the mobile site and you keep deleting discussions where it is mentioned or the situation is explained. So I'll guess you'll keep getting spammed with requests, because most people browse the web on mobile devices. LPW00 (talk) 01:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

No one has been deleting discussions. Only spam/incoherent rants/vitriolic nonsense/etc are removed. See WP:FORUM.
Regarding sources, Wikipedia goes by reliable secondary sources where possible instead of primary sources. This means, for example, that Wikipedia prefers sources such as Rolling Stone instead of sources directly connected to article subjects (like official websites etc). This may seem counter-intuitive, but when applied across the whole encyclopaedia, it produces better articles.
The other thing to consider is that Wikipedia has its own manual of style. This is independent from the style guides of other organizations, or the preferences of individuals. Wikipedia doesn't just write things in a million different ways simply because a million different people want things to be different in a million different ways. It chooses a consistent set of rules and sticks to them. Popcornfud (talk) 01:32, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Why is he categorized as "African-American"?

How can he be African-American when he isn't American?

As the article explains (with sources), he was American. Popcornfud (talk) 00:25, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
No, the article says he was born in London (sourced) and that "he remained a British citizen, never gaining American citizenship" (sourced). He did live in the US, but then so did John Lennon. He's as American as steak-and-kidney pie. Yappy2bhere (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Nationality is not the same as citizenship. We have discussed this ad nauseam and British-American is the consensus view. Please see the talk page archives. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 20:26, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
This article in Pitchfork, which is the most extensive and sensitive treatment I have seen of Dumile's nationality, does not refer to him as either British or American. Perhaps we should simply omit nationality entirely, or say London-born. British alone is clearly wrong. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 21:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
If we omit nationality entirely then it will create a weird hole that people will notice and try to fill for ever. "London-born" sounds like British; to someone who doesn't know the complicated story of his nationality, it's just weird, like, "So he's British?" Popcornfud (talk) 00:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
A good argument for the status quo, which I don't oppose either. I don't think any option is exactly right. But it should be clear that someone who grew up in the US in the 1970s and lived and worked there until 2010 is not "British" under any commonsense interpretation of that term. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:00, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
My position on this is:
  • I think most reasonable people would accept that Doom was American in several meaningful senses - in fact, I suspect most people are surprised to learn he wasn't only American in a straightforward sense. He spent the vast majority of life (including most of his childhood) in America, he spoke American English with an American accent, etc.
  • I don't think Wikipedia should base statements of nationality or nationhood purely on legal criteria. That to me is a) rather insensitive and b) misleading for the purposes of writing an encyclopaedia; for the reason I stated above, I think it is actually false to say he was not American in at least some meaningful senses.
  • Sources differ on describing his nationality. Some say British, some say American, some use combinations thereof, some omit it entirely. Since omitting someone's nationality from the lead introduces non-trivial problems (it's critical context, noticeable in its absence and will invite re-additions) I think it's better to have something than nothing.
British-American to me seems like a good compromise that reflects the plurality of sources and is a reasonable interpretation of his identity. We could, if we felt it was really necessary, add a footnote to the claim bundling some of the differing sources and summarising the ambiguity. Popcornfud (talk) 10:28, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
@Popcornfud, content categories are for navigation, not for defining people's identities. If a reader looking for information about "African-American male rappers" might be interested in reading this article, then this article belongs in that category. The subject doesn't absolutely have to be whatever the category is about, so long as we have a rational basis for thinking that readers interested in "African-American male rappers" will be interested in this article about, in this case, a male rapper of African descent who happened to live and work in the US for most of his career. Close counts not only in horseshoes and handgrenades, but also in most categorization on Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
so long as we have a rational basis for thinking that readers interested in "African-American male rappers" will be interested in this article I think we've got that base covered here. Popcornfud (talk) 21:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Should just put him down as "Black." Because he was a black man. A black man who was not born in Africa or America, never lived in Africa, and never applied for American citizenship when he lived there. There's nothing wrong with "black," and I genuinely don't think I have ever met a black person who preferred African-American over it or considered black offensive. In fact, every black person I've met who isn't neutral on the matter actually considers "African-American" to be the objectionable one, not "black." I dunno, just a thought. AnarchoGonzo (talk) 19:17, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the title of MF DOOM's Wikipedia page.

I hate to be "that guy," but technology you're suppose to use ALL CAPS WHEN YOU SPELL THE MAN NAME. I see the page is locked, and I see that aforementioned rule re: the man name is not being followed, so my powers of deduction tell me people were having to repeatedly alter the article in order to see to it that the proper format of ALL CAPS is utilized when spelling the man name, but SOMEBODY kept undoing their righteous work and eventually got The People locked out of the article.

Ok, I'm done being a massive nerd, the point I'm laboriously driving at is just put "MF DOOM" in all caps like so:

MF DOOM

Knowing how people are, I'm pretty sure you're just gonna keep getting people trying to edit the article to do that literally forever anyway, and why lock the whole MF DOOM article just to preserve the improper formatting of the man name? You know? DOOM no longer exists on the mortal plane, he is now more powerful than any of us could possibly imagine, I wouldn't want to incur his potential wrath just because someone doesn't wanna use ALL CAPS WHEN SPELLING THE MAN NAME.

This is a very serious and urgent matter that should be taken with the utmost seriousness and urgency! AnarchoGonzo (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

No, just stop. We've dealt with this, among other places in the section immediately above. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 20:50, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2022

Hello, the Doom needs to be changed to all capitals, DOOM is the only acceptable way to spell his name 2001:8004:27E0:571A:3567:B8D9:58D7:B533 (talk) 04:28, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see the FAQ Cannolis (talk) 09:16, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Just an FYI he had some other aliases

Including "X-Ray aka King Caeser" (producer w/M.I.C. Monsta Island Czars) taken from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsta_Island_Czars 73.149.66.14 (talk) 07:32, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2022

Just remember ALL CAPS when you spell the man name

you mention that but don't the rules 71.56.206.100 (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see the FAQ Cannolis (talk) 23:47, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
Does the fact that he requested people refer to him as MF DOOM not supercede on this? Genabab (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Five-Percenter claims

This article claims that the Dumiles were raised “by their parents” as Five-Percenters. But in this interview with Peter Agoston, he explicitly says that he was raised studying “traditional Islam” with a diverse set of worshippers, pre-dominantly “whites” and “people from Turkey”, nothing like the Five-Percenters. The source cited is an article in ‘’Wire’’ that asserts that the Dumiles were Five-Percenters but offers no substantiation for this point. What’s more, the ‘’Wire’’ article does not mention anything about Dumile’s parents.

The Dumiles had been raised as part of the Five Percent Nation, an offshoot of the black Muslim faith that also counted Wu-Tang Clan, Brand Nubian and Rakim as adherents.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:903E:E78E:9D:EB5F:A8A0:D3E4 (talk • contribs)

References

  1. ^ Agoston, Peter. "The House List: Ep. 100 - DOOM". Soundcloud. Retrieved April 22, 2022.
The source does not have to substantiate the assertion. The Wire magazine source is considered reliable until proven otherwise. Binksternet (talk) 16:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The interview cited here proves otherwise. MF DOOM uses the term "traditional Islam" to describe his religious upbringing and talks about worshipping with middle-easterners and white people. This is an incompatible reality with being a Five-Percenter. He then describes moving on to follow "Pops" aka Malachi York of the Nuwabians/Sabeans/Ansar Allah. If assking his surviving brother directly helps I can do that. 75.104.65.178 (talk) 19:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2022

Just remember, all caps when you spell the man name ALLCAPSFORDOOM (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

  •  Not done. Many people ask for that but Wikipedia has a contradictory house style. Binksternet (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistency on Biden's playlist

The article reads "American president-elect Joe Biden included the instrumental to Dumile's popular 2004 song "Rapp Snitch Knishes" in his inauguration playlist", however the cited source says it was Coffin Nails, not Rapp Snitch Knishes.

--Kjonaas (talk) 20:08, 13 May 2022 (UTC)Kjonaas

My dude... that's the same beat. I'd have to look up the release dates, but my recollection is that when a beat is on a Special Herbs volume it has a different name rather than the album track's. It might be the kind of thing where technically the instrumental is called "Coffin Nails", but everyone would recognize it as Rapp Snitch Knishes as that was one of the album's breakout tracks. JesseRafe (talk) 20:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

"Dumile in 2008"

That's clearly DJ Wesu when DOOM was hiring imposters, camo hoodie and everything. Goes to show how much you chumps know about DOOM" 2001:48F8:7024:17F:D48B:EF32:57E8:B133 (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding MF Doom's nationality

If MF Doom was born in Britain, then why it says "British-American" even though he never got his American citizenship? Moh8213 (talk) 20:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

See this prior discussion: Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_2#Nationality_(1_January_2021) Popcornfud (talk) 20:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I've checked the previous discussion and tbh I think it's rather illogical that we consider him as "American" just because of cultural reasons, the reason why lots of sources state that he's American is just because of his long-term residency in the US and his contribution to the American hip-hop scene, not because of him being a naturalized American citizen, also saying that he's "British-American" is very misleading and it'll make readers believe that he's a dual citizen of the United Kingdom and the United States, when in reality he's only a citizen of the UK, not the US, he even got denied re-entry to the US after a tour he performed abroad, which forced him to move to the UK and live there till his untimely death in 2020, then all of a sudden Biden add one of his songs in his playlist, if MF Doom saw this, he perhaps would've been disgusted by it. So what would justify us to consider him as an "American" after all those instances? In fact, we have a similar case with rapper Nicki Minaj, she was born and raised to Trinidad and Tobago, but it's only when she "illegally" immigrated to the US when she was 5, but later she got her PR, and ever since then she's still living in the United States as a PR, and majority of the sources consider her as a "Trinidadian" rapper not "American", another similar case we have with Rihanna, she moved to the US in 2004, when she was only 16, she had her music career success in the US, and she currently living in the US, but despite all of this, virtually all sources consider her as a "Barbadian" singer, and she still hasn't got her US citizenship (probably because she didn't apply to it yet) I think the best solution to this is by stating that he's "British-born American" rapper or just more accurately as "British" rapper. Moh8213 (talk) 18:41, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Nationality isn't purely a legal matter. Take a look at MOS:ETHNICITY, which decides how we describe nationality: the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.
Moreover, we have to go by what sources say, not by our own feelings. Sources variously describe Doom as American, British and British-American, so "British-American" seems like the best reflection to me. Popcornfud (talk) 20:09, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

You do realise that sources (even the most reliable ones) aren't always 100% correct all the time, and I already stated earlier that those sources clearly state him as "American" for cultural reasons, and if that's the case then, why would it only apply to MF Doom and not the other similar artists I mentioned above, despite them living most of their lives in the US, yet nobody consider them as "Americans". As user Trillfendi stated in the prev. discussion, cultural ties and residence are simply not enough to describe who a citizen is and who isn't, and by this way, we are simply giving the finger to that official piece of government paper which determines your legal status, a paper that millions of people around the world would sacrifice to get by either "legally" or "illegally" immigrating to the US, and living there for a certain time till they obtain that citizenship. Just because he spend most of his life in the US doesn't make him any less "British", the man was born in the UK, held British citizenship for all his life, and lived the last ten years of his life in the UK, that's more than enough for him to be considered as "British". Since personal opinions are getting on the way, I think an RfC would solve this issue. Moh8213 (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Also I'd like to add that this very detailed article published by Pitchfork back in June, 2021, it gives you every reason as to why we should not consider MF Doom as an American citizen. Moh8213 (talk) 21:57, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Capitalisation

Many, many other artists, like BLACKPINK, have their name capitalised in the first sentences of their article, as an "often stylised as" aside. It seems very inconsistent to not also do that here. 128.232.195.36 (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

After literally only 2 minutes of looking I have found almost 10 other K-pop groups alone which have their names capitalised in their page intros. It's very easy to find articles beginning something along the lines of "Arthur A. Artist, best known as Artist (often stylised as ARTIST)..."
I feel that frequent capitalisation requests have made this topic far more contentious than it need be. It is not actually that unorthodox a request. 193.60.94.9 (talk) 23:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Note that the lead of this article already says that the name is often stylized in caps. Popcornfud (talk) 11:30, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2022

MF DOOM. not MF Doom. Kk44mk (talk) 21:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see FAQ Cannolis (talk) 21:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

All caps

'Mf doom" and "doom" should be capitalized throughout the article 192.173.128.35 (talk) 17:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

No, they shouldn't. Please review the FAQ at the top of this page. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I've viewed the FAQ and I believe that it would be more respectful to use 'DOOM' in replacement of 'Doom' for the spelling of the article's title.Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 14:45, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Respectful" isn't a factor. Wikipedia has its own house style, which is not going to change for Doom. Binksternet (talk) 16:30, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
wikipedia's style is to name things incorrectly? Kkbaac (talk) 13:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
I HAD TO MAKE AN ACCOUNT ON HERE JUST TO JOIN THE DISCUSSION.
REGARDLESS OF "HOUSE STYLES", THE MAN'S LITERAL STAGE NAME IS MF DOOM. HIS NAME IS NOT MF Doom - HIS NAME IS MF DOOM.
AS MENTIONED ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, HIS NAME IS NOT SPELLED DIFFERENTLY ANYWHERE ON ANY PLATFORM EXCEPT WIKIPEDIA. WAKEANDBACON (talk) 21:24, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
The Guardian disproves your assertion: "MF Doom, iconic masked hip-hop MC, dies aged 49". So does the New Yorker listing "a series of exaggerated comic-book alter egos with names such as MF Doom, King Geedorah, and Viktor Vaughn." There's also The New York Times, AllMusic, Billboard, the BBC, CBS, AV Club and CNN. Plenty of respected platforms using the lower case style. Binksternet (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Is this really a topic of respect? MF DOOM is after all, what he is called everywhere. Including spotify. He wrote a song about it too. Respect aside, if this is what he specifcally reffered to himself as and what everyone else reffers to him as, then why not use all caps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genabab (talk • contribs) 19:15, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

fr bruh his name is spelt in all caps it’s his stage name BruhItsDarren (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

"...best known by his stage name MF Doom or simply Doom (both stylized in all caps)..." you literally say it needs to be written in all caps yet you dont Shortyrex (talk) 00:36, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

It is an injustice to not spell this mans name in all caps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:56A:7D06:9D00:9021:CD03:B0E4:E178 (talk) 04:38, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. 222.154.124.124 (talk) 10:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I don’t understand why Wikipedia respects the capitalization of bell hooks, but not MF DOOM. I feel that Wikipedia should be consistent and respect peoples’ wishes regarding their names. BillyCorriher (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

If you were genuinely interested in this topic you would read the abundant links herein. To wit, MOS:ALLCAPS: "Avoid writing with all caps (all capital letters) [...] when they have only a stylistic function." I am also curious why you think "bell hooks" is in capital letters, and even if it were, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS were a valid argument, why that would be the relevant policy there. JesseRafe (talk) 19:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The Wikipedia policy that applies to bell hooks is MOS:LCITEMS, which says: Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). Wikipedia has no such policy for all-caps names, though. The editors of this pages are just following Wikipedia policies. If you think the policies should change, you should start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, not here. Popcornfud (talk) 22:51, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Spelling MF DOOM with lowercase letters is a spelling error, not a style issue. Moneyshirt (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2022

“Just remember ALL CAPS when you spell the man’s name.” 35.130.114.91 (talk) 00:29, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see FAQ Cannolis (talk) 02:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

bell hooks and maia arson crimew

Genuine question— why are pages like bell hooks and maia arson crimew stylized (rightfully) in the person's preferred case when it's lowercase but DOOM is not? It genuinely makes no sense. There's no consistency here. KAYTRA (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I answered this question above:
The Wikipedia policy that applies to bell hooks is MOS:LCITEMS, which says: "Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)."
Wikipedia has no such policy for all-caps names. The editors of this page are just following Wikipedia policies. If you think the policies should change, you should start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, not here. Popcornfud (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

He is not a British rapper.

Although he was born in England, his family almost immediately returned home to Long Beach, New York after his birth. They were visiting family when Dumile's mothers water broke and she needed to birth him in England. He did not spend more than a year in Britain in his childhood or as a young adult. He is an American rapper, not a British rapper. I think doing so dismisses his immense contribution to Long Island culture and American culture as a whole. Nanarroy24 (talk) 19:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

If anything, he is a British-born American rapper. I think this would be much less confusing for newcomers, journalists, and historians alike. Nanarroy24 (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
He is described by sources as both American and British, and there are strong arguments for both (taking into account both legal and cultural aspects). Popcornfud (talk) 20:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

British-American?

I have been made aware that I should ask consensus regarding this topic. I do not believe it accurate to mention Doom as "British-American," when it is clear that he was a British national that lived undocumented in the United States. GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 01:25, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

This has been previously discussed a few times — take a look in the archives for this talk page. Popcornfud (talk) 01:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2023

Early career is incorrect, song name is Gasface Refill not "the gas face" and he raps the first verse not just the last one. BLAQUAM4N (talk) 04:47, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2023

Recently it’s been confirmed by Dumile’s widow that he died in Leeds from “health conditions among them kidney disease which had led to weight gain and anxiety”. He had also been living in Leeds at the time of his death. https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/heartbroken-wife-famous-musician-unanswered-27246887 2607:FB91:1320:B614:241F:9499:D623:C304 (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The citation you provided says: Dumile Daniel Thompson - a successful rapper whose stage name was MF Doom - was being treated in St James's Hospital after he had suffered a severe and 'rare' reaction to blood pressure medication which he had just been prescribed. [...] She said Daniel had been prescribed a new medication but, after just two doses, he developed breathing problems and had gone to the A&E department in Leeds. She said Daniel's tongue and throat had started to swell. The article already reflects that fact, and that he died in Leeds, using the same citation. Xan747 (talk) 18:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2023

The cause of death should be added to the infobox, which in this case is asphyxiation due to angioedema. Gluepix (talk) 02:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 03:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Why isn't "origin" in infobox anymore?

I believe that there was a segment in the infobox clarifying that his origin is in Long Bescb, New York. Would it be possible to restore it or if it wasn't there before, perhaps add it to the infobox? People think he's English. NorthCentralKing (talk) 18:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

DOOM, all caps, no disrespect 68.169.141.42 (talk) 10:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
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