Talk:Mahsa Amini protests/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 November 2022

Macron recently spoke on the protests, I think his thoughts deserve an entry in the reactions section.

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=== Countries === * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Greece.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Greece|link=Greece]]</span> Greece: The foreign ministry issued a statement that "We fully align ourselves with the declaration by High Representative/Vice President Josep Borrell on the latest developments in Iran." * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Israel.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Israel|link=Israel]]</span> Israel: Prime Minister [[Yair Lapid]] said in his speech to United Nations General Assembly on 22 September that "Young Iranians are suffering and struggling from the shackles of Iran's regime, and the world is silent. They cry for help on social media. They pay for their desire to live a life of freedom — with their lives. Iran's regime hates Jews, hates women, hates gay people, hates the West. They hate and kill Muslims who think differently, like Salman Rushdie and Mahsa Amini." * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Turkey.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Turkey|link=Turkey]]</span> Turkey: Presidential Spokesperson [[İbrahim Kalın]] said he was saddened by Amini's death and that Iran needs to find a balanced way to respect people's free will and maintain public order. Demonstrations occurred in several Turkish cities, including a protest by a group of Iranians in front of the Iranian Consulate in Istanbul.

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=== Countries === * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Greece.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Greece|link=Greece]]</span> Greece: The foreign ministry issued a statement that "We fully align ourselves with the declaration by High Representative/Vice President Josep Borrell on the latest developments in Iran." * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Israel.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Israel|link=Israel]]</span> Israel: Prime Minister [[Yair Lapid]] said in his speech to United Nations General Assembly on 22 September that "Young Iranians are suffering and struggling from the shackles of Iran's regime, and the world is silent. They cry for help on social media. They pay for their desire to live a life of freedom — with their lives. Iran's regime hates Jews, hates women, hates gay people, hates the West. They hate and kill Muslims who think differently, like Salman Rushdie and Mahsa Amini." * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of Turkey.svg|23x15px|border |alt=Turkey|link=Turkey]]</span> Turkey: Presidential Spokesperson [[İbrahim Kalın]] said he was saddened by Amini's death and that Iran needs to find a balanced way to respect people's free will and maintain public order. Demonstrations occurred in several Turkish cities, including a protest by a group of Iranians in front of the Iranian Consulate in Istanbul. * <span class="flagicon">[[File:Flag of France.svg|23x15px|border |alt=France|link=France]]</span> France: President [[Emmanuel Macron]], in speaking to a delegation of Iranian activists, said the protestors had his "respect and our admiration in the context of the revolution they are leading", being the first world leader to refer to the protest as an actual revolution. In response, delegate and Iranian journalist [[Masih Alinejad]] called on France to meet with Iranian opposition leaders and officially recognize the protests as a revolution.

Feel free to make any changes you feel appropriate or place this in a section you think it's more relevant to, I was initially thinking of putting it in the analysis section due to all the talk of revolution in there, but this one may be more appropriate.

Apologies for the ref tags getting listed as actual references on the page, I'm sure there's a way to stop that but TextDiff doesn't have any real documentation. 64.43.136.191 (talk) 03:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I moved a mention to Reactions to the Mahsa Amini protests, feel free to add additional content to that unprotected page. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

References

 Already done Closing this request now. If you believe this was done in error, please ping me and clarify what additional changes you wish to be made. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Analysis

I have found some more sources for the analysis section which might be interesting to add. Here is one arguing that the regime lacks capacity for reform, and that the protests are the biggest challenge to the IR since its inception because it is not only one of the most radical protests, but also one of the longest lasting movements we have seen. Source

Here is an academic source arguing that protests between 2017 and 2019 created a template for escalated conflicts between society and state, the younger generation becoming more adversarial to the state, decentralized in its activism and disillusioned by promises of change. Source

Another academic article arguing that protesters have become more willing to endure and inflict violence. Source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:88C0:43C4:FD05:3CDD:9CE6:2360 (talk) 11:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The DW video is not very usable, because it's hard to archive, but the two research articles look good. However, going too much into the 2017 to 2019 leadup risks going too far off-topic for this article (that was the WP:UNDUE concern mentioned earlier), so finding an appropriate article for putting a more in-depth, broader overview of the development of protests in Iran would be better. Boud (talk) 04:18, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Any RS for the Mahabad massacre?

There are tweet rumours here and here of a military massacre using heavy weaponry against a crowd of 3400 people in Mahabad as of around 00:00 UTC Sun 20 Nov (about 03:30 Iran Standard Time 20 Nov). Do we have any WP:RS? Boud (talk) 03:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC) According to these non-RS heavy and light gunfire had been going on for hours non-stop as of 3 hours earlier than that, i.e. as of 21:00 UTC Sat 19 Nov = 00:30 local time 20 Nov the massacre had already been going on for hours. We can't use these sources, but they should help to check the credibility of mainstream media sources once we get them. Mainstream sources needed... Boud (talk) 03:36, 20 November 2022 (UTC) I put a PDKI statement about martial law in Mahabad, attributed to PDKI, in the article. Their prediction, The lives of many people are in danger unfortunately appears to have been fulfilled. Boud (talk) 03:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@Boud We obviously have WP:RS since your post; most or all of it should go on Timeline of the Mahsa Amini protests. If included in this summary page, it should be in context like "XYZ protestors were killed as of (date), including A killed in the B massacre and C killed in the D massacre", with wikilinks to the appropriate part of the timeline (or to a separate page if it exists). Rolf H Nelson (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@Rolf h nelson: I don't see any WP:RS for a massacre, although there are (now) several sources for military attacks on the protestors in several towns in the region, and they seem to date the shootings to the evening of Sat 18 Nov, not Sun 19 Nov. I've put it in the timeline for the moment (I started it here and then shifted it). It does very likely count as a qualitative new phase of the protests/reform/revolution, but it probably makes more sense to let more sources come in before bringing a brief summary back to this article. Boud (talk) 20:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

My bad, the mainstream sources published today were indeed referring to the Hengaw report published on the 19th [1], which in turn referred to one person shot on the 17th and two shot on the 18th. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Part of the 2021–2022 protests?

The infobox states these protests are part of the 2021–2022 Iranian protests but are they? Those protests appear to have been more centered on infrastructure issues than women's rights (although they both favored regime change). The articles on the 2017–2018 Iranian protests and the 2018–2019 Iranian general strikes and protests imply they're separate despite only being separated by three months and this article has a full seven-month gab between the two. What do you guys think? Charles Essie (talk) 23:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the Mahsa Amini protests shouldn't be characterized as part of the 2021-2022 Iranian protests. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Mention of reactions by Tudeh?

I can't add it as per the lock on editing, but the Tudeh party released a statement condemning the murder of Masha Amini and supporting "all progressive movements" in Iran: https://cpusa.org/article/tudeh-party-of-iran-condemns-murder-of-mahsa-amini/ as well as here: https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/iranian-communists-slam-ayatollah-khameneis-claim-protests-are-orchestrated

I think this should be added imo as there isn't too much on the reactions of political parties Genabab (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the reactions of Tudeh and other parties should definitely be included in the reactions article. Charles Essie (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

added them there, but is there any space on this article as well to add it is what I meant to ask? Genabab (talk) 08:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

One you post it there you don't need to post it here. Charles Essie (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

I can't immediately find any mainstream media coverage of Tudeh's stance on Iran, as a non-expert I hadn't even heard of the party before looking it up. Personally I wouldn't even include it in Reactions to the Mahsa Amini protests, absent a WP:RS to establish WP:DUE weight. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 21:53, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2022

I was going to add about the controversy of the US soccer team twitter temporarily changed Iran's flag in support of womens rights, under the FIFA World Cup 2022 article. Coolcaden26 (talk) 16:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Looks like this has been added at some point. Rolf H Nelson (talk)

Inbox pictures

I suggested a new college of images relating to protests to be add to the article. It's a worldwide protests not just for Iran. 5.160.225.86 (talk) 10:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

It's confusing to mix images of solidarity protests with the protests in Iran, but I added the fourth image to the Reactions section. You can also add images to the unprotected Reactions to the Mahsa Amini protests, but IMHO we don't need more than one image for Germany and one image for Australia on that page. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:32, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Missing word in intro

> The government's to the protests has been widely condemned.

This should presumably read "The government's response". Jonathan Sharman (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

More tentative description of announced changes

I feel this article is currently describing the recently annouced changes as if they were already fact, rather than something that has just been announced. As far as I can tell, the only information available is that this minister announced that the Guidance Patrol has been abolished and that the Hijab law will be put under review.

We have to keep in mind that this is a regime known for being duplicitous, and even if we don't believe that, we still shouldn't describe things that have been announced for the future as if they've already taken place (the review of the hijab law) and things that are described as having started until we have actual reports of them having started in reality (abolishment of the Guidance Patrol). David12345 (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Basij can still enforce hijab, arrest people for booze, arrest people for public display of affection, and so on.--24.99.88.116 (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2022

I would like to request that this page be rename to Iranian Revolution of 2022. There has been a growing body of literature that supports this current movement is an ongoing revolution. The protests and content of this page have moved beyond the scope of Mahsa Amini. As a professor in Middle Eastern studies, it seems that the title of this page is not aligned with the content that is found on this page, nor with the ongoing literature that is being produced surrounding this movement. Progressivepen (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

There's no harm in you stating your credentials, but under the argument from authority that won't count for much. Please provide some URLs to a few of the peer-reviewed research papers that you mentioned, in the requested move section below, and explain or show that one of the two proposed titles (or both, or another title) is justified based on those external sources. An uninvolved editor will close the debate, normally after at least 7 days since the start of the debate. Closed-access research papers can, in principle, be used as support, but open-access ones are generally more convincing, for obvious reasons. Boud (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Articles about individual executions - really useful and notable?

It seems articles have been created about both of the executions that have been carried out as a consequence of the protests (using that word for the moment, pending the discussion above). Specifically I'm referring to Execution of Majidreza Rahnavard and Execution of Mohsen Shekari. This even though Death sentences during the Mahsa Amini protests already exists. Is it really useful to have articles describing the executions of individual participants in the protests? Shouldn't we rather be focusing our efforts on maintaining and improving the broader overview? More generally, I've been removing the names of individual protesters over on Timeline of the Mahsa Amini protests, as it is my understanding that individual participants generally aren't notable enough to merit mention, and my opinion that they serve to clutter the page and muddle the narrative of the article.

I would like to get some perspective on this. If someone could mention some of the relevant guidelines, that too would be great. David12345 (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

The first and second executions have attracted a lot of international media attention, so I expect that those two articles would survive any AfDs. The Death sentences article currently suffers badly from WP:RELTIME-itis (what "has been" happening, i.e. recently; "have been"; "have [past participle]"; what is "currently" the case with {{as of}} missing), but even after cleaning up, I expect that it would still be complementary to the individual articles. There are plenty of cases where individual people/deaths associated with significant events in rich Western countries each get individual articles, so to avoid the tendency to systematic bias (more specifically, see Geographical bias on Wikipedia and zoom in to File:Imageworld-artphp3.png; you'll see that at least as of 2013, while there's a high density of Syria info, there's very little on Iran), I wouldn't hurry to try to delete those individual articles. Boud (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: CMN2160A

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 September 2022 and 15 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emmaparisien (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Emmaparisien (talk) 06:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Rename to Mahsa Amini Riots

The requested move of 9 December 2022 is not yet closed. Please wait until that is closed to see if opening a new discussion on a title change is justified. Boud (talk) 23:38, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I think this is a good middle ground between calling it a revolution/uprising or just a protest. Starman2377 (talk) 18:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC) Opposeif there were be any riots they came later than the protests. Holding rallies, closing shops by a collective strike and cutting their own hair is not rioting, its protesting and I'd suggest in a non-violent way and in no way a riot.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC) Support Mahsa Amini Riots, if you are following the news and the first hand footage, you will see that stores have been lit on fire, there is no shortage of cocktail bombs, and there have been casualties. Khomeini's home was lit on fire https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iran-fire-set-home-leader-ayatollah-khomeini-rcna57979 More fires https://www.businessinsider.com/protesters-set-fires-in-busy-roads-as-iranian-protests-continue-2022-12 Here are more fires https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1715328292177362 (sadly not an official source) https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-722996 casualties Progressivepen (talk) 23:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC) @Starman2377: Please add alternative names (such as Mahsa Amini Riots) to Talk:Mahsa Amini protests#Requested move 9 December 2022, giving reasons/evidence and stating clearly which options are supported or opposed by those reasons and with sourced evidence. There's no point opening a new title debate while the current one is still ongoing. Boud (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 9 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is to retain the description of these events as protests, per the terminology used in prevailing sources.(non-admin closure) Polyamorph (talk) 08:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

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Mahsa Amini protests → ? – There are now many sources for describing the protests as stronger than just 'protests'. Both 2022 Iranian uprising and 2022 Iranian revolution, using lower case as descriptive titles, can reasonably be argued to be the WP:COMMONNAME. This RM formalises two informal ones made today/yesterday. Please clearly state which of the two (or other) names you Support or Oppose (e.g. one or both) and give your reasons based on WP:TITLE - Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Boud (talk) 19:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment @Sunfyre, Lucasoliveira653, and Progressivepen: - please copy/paste/update your main reasons and evidence here, stating which names you support or oppose. For future rename proposals, you'll find the template and instructions at {{move request}}. Boud (talk) 19:04, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

  I support Iranian Revolution of 2022, because uprisings is a synonym to protests. Research shows that what is currently happening is a revolution in action.

  Scholars Barbara and Jackson (2017) explain that a revolution needs a sufficient number of the population to participate, and that there must be unity across the different faction. This standard for a revolution is evident in what is going on in Iran. {{http://hicn.isdc.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2012/06/HiCN-WP-243.pdf}<nowiki>

  In his book The End of Protest. A New Playbook for Revolution, White (1968) writes that a revolution requires mass participation from all groups, and that the purpose is to grant social freedom. White's recipe for a revolution can be seen in the widespread participation among Iranians in Iran, as well as the slogan Women, Life, Freedom. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=sLY_CgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA5&dq=revolution+or+protests&ots=bSMgKT31xR&sig=zpAVT1CagU2KJd2Qczi01rqY8OQ#v=onepage&q=revolution%20or%20protests&f=false

  The numbers of arrests, executions, and murders have surpassed that of a typical protest. https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20221206-iran-s-protest-movement-the-tipping-point-hasn-t-been-reached-but-it-isn-t-far-away

  University students in Shiraz and other cities are calling their movement a revolution. https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20221205-iran-protests-morality-police-continue-disbanded-mahsa-amini

  The University of British Colombia is calling it a "full blow revolution". https://events.ubc.ca/event/panel-unifying-perspectives-on-the-revolution-in-iran/

  Forbes has called it the Women's lead revolution. https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2022/12/06/mahsa-amini-the-spark-that-ignited-a-women-led-revolution/

  Iran International, the Iranian news agency has called the protests a "full blown revolution". https://www.iranintl.com/en/202211202324

  Author Ava Homa called this a revolution in which Iran seeks democracy during her speech at California State university. https://www.montereyherald.com/2022/11/16/pacific-grove-author-makes-case-for-iranian-revolution/

  The president of France has called the movement a revolution. https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/3990056/tariq-al-homayed/iran-and-revolution-grandchildren https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-emmanuel-macron-supports-irans-new-revolution-masih-alinejad-democracy-protest-womens-rights-mullahs-raisi-11668792721 Progressivepen (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Progressivepen: Can you point to at least one preprint or peer-reviewed research paper that establishes that what is currently happening is a revolution in action, as opposed to you (or I) interpreting older research papers together with evidence of the events? 1968 and 2017 were before this wave of protests started. Please see WP:OR about why your (or my or other Wikipedians') interpretations in a Wikipedia discussion don't count as peer-reviewed research. Boud (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  Interesting that you say that. As an academic who has published peer review articles, it takes a long time to go from the draft to the published article in a journal. There are articles being written, but they will most likely be published in the upcoming year.

  Your point can be a little counter productive to the mission of wikipedia, as an open access encyclopedia because waiting for academia will mean that what is going on in Iran must first pass through the ivory tower only to be disseminated back to the public as valid.

  Here are a few peer reviewed articles

  This peer reviewed article suggests this movement is a revolution because of the new generation and how they are not traumatized from the 1979 revolution, but rather emboldened to fight and die in a new revolution.

  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00396338.2022.2150441

  This peer reviewed article calls the movement the Feminist Revolution https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(22)00378-9/fulltext

  In this article, the author explains that Iran has reached it "breaking point" which is an indicator of a revolution.

  https://www.cairn.info/revue-hommes-et-migrations-2022-4-page-198.htm

  In this article, the author writes that Iran is experiencing a counter-revolution to the 1979 revolution.

  https://www.proquest.com/openview/1dbe7891e8cee964c1c980462ec36327/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=616545&casa_token=5LwCnIZtZVIAAAAA:B5OmoXp9BAPLNoJfTtHZ9gSIEBUNgEkEXK9JrcoYhFrOLXA3RAYcZjdBLUjskE4SRhOFMDlFCQ Progressivepen (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  Mahsa Rouhi Global Politics and Strategy (tandf): ... the [current] protest movement ... which suggest that the current inchoate revolution ... the Iranian protests ... its unprecedented demographic breadth, philosophical commitment and sheer persistence ... Even if the current uprising ... – "inchoate revolution" is somewhat ambiguous, since it could mean either "chaotic" or "only just starting" rather than "definitely" a "revolution", but "uprising" is clearly stated as a key summary word;

  Amir Kabir The Lancet: Feminist revolution in Iran is in the title – it's "correspondence" rather than a "research" paper, but the editors of a prestigious research journal accepted it;

  Mustapha Harzoune in Hommes & Migrations (CAIRN) writes (in the open-access part) a rather qualitative opinion of a "breaking point" loosely linking the Iranian uprising, the 2022 full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine and the climate emergency, but we can't really choose on how to interpret that – critical phenomena do exist in quantified, physical dynamical systems, but it doesn't look like Harzoune attempts a quantitative analysis;

  Defence Journal (Karachi) is not yet known in Wikipedia and ProQuest is now owned by Clarivate, which is owned by the banks/financial firms Onex Corporation and BPEA EQT, making it a bit dubious in terms of academic independence and is clearly privacy violating, so people protecting their privacy rights will tend to not accept to read the article.

  Overall, Rouhi characterises the events as protests or inchoate revolution or an uprising and Kabir uses "feminist revolution" in the title, so this would tend to support either uprising or revolution. Boud (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  I am not sure of this article, I cannot access it right now, but it is titled "Gears in Motion Towards the Iranian Revolution" (pavli, 2022). https://dergipark.org.tr/en/pub/iranian/issue/70429/1056041 maybe someone can access it and say if they are calling it a revolution Progressivepen (talk) 15:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Iran International is Saudi, not Iranian. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 09:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  There's clearly some Saudi funding involved in that "Persian language news television channel headquartered in London, UK, aimed at Iranian viewers". To what extent the Saudi funding influences the content is already covered to a fair degree in the article; if you can improve the article Iran International based on WP:RS and following Wikipedia policy and guidelines, then please go ahead by editing and/or discussing on the talk-page at that article. Boud (talk) 01:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  This article also uses the word revolution in the title. In the article, they address Iran "New Wave of Revolutions in the MENA Region in the Global Perspective" (Issaev and Korotayev, 2022) https://www.researchgate.net/profile/A-Korotayev/publication/365133627_Introduction_New_Wave_of_Revolutions_in_the_MENA_Region_in_the_Global_Perspective/links/636a363a431b1f53007ddf40/Introduction-New-Wave-of-Revolutions-in-the-MENA-Region-in-the-Global-Perspective.pdf Progressivepen (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• Mahsa Amini protests → 2022 Iranian Uprising– This event has long since gone beyond protest and turned into an uprising. We at Farsi Wikipedia agreed to change the name of the article.[2] It is also said to be an uprising in English-speaking media, such as the Guardian. Three months after the uprising began, demonstrators are still risking their lives. Will this generation succeed where previous attempts to unseat the Islamic hardliners have been crushed? I wonder the name of the article here is still with Mahsa Amini! Many protesters have been killed in this uprising, not only Mahsa! Sunfyre (talk) 18:58, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree, calling it Mahsa Amini protests is a disservice at this point to the hundreds of lives that have been lost. I think that Mahsa Amini protests should be a subpage of a page titled 2022 Iranian Revolution. Progressivepen (talk) 17:43, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  You can't call something a revolution unless, at the bare minimum, the government actually changes. Your wishful thinking doesn't change reality. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 09:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  There have been several failed revolutions in which the government has not changed, for example, the many peasant and serf revolts of pre-reformation europe 161.97.25.6 (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support I Agree with you, this has becamed a more than a protests, loks like to be a uprising rn Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 02:19, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support 2022 Iranian uprising based on widespread international media usage such as CNN national uprising in the title; Eurasia Review Iran's Uprising in the title; Dissent Magazine the Uprising in Iran in the title; American Conservative Iran's Empty Uprising is the title; Iran International Quell Iran Uprising in the title. Oppose title 2022 Iranian revolution for the moment given that in the section Mahsa Amini protests#Analysis our current WP:NPOV consensus is that we have a range of opinions with some arguing for and others arguing "maybe soon/not yet" on the question of whether the events currently constitute a revolution or not. Boud (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC) (clarify comment Boud (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC))

  Sociology professor Asef Bayat says that this series of events is an uprising about 14 times in his widely distributed essay A New Iran Has Been Born — A Global Iran (the word count is more than 14, because the word is also used to refer to similar events, especially from the Arab Spring). Boud (talk) 01:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

IMHO your own CNN example overall counts against "uprising" being the common name, as the text itself calls them "protests" 13 times but only uses the word "uprising" twice (and even there, attributes it to analysts rather than directly reporting it as fact). Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Let's be wary of WP:OR and check how reliable sources describe it:

CNN: "protests that have swept the country since September"

Guardian: "execution in relation to the anti-government protests"

Fox News: "Iranian students take to streets joining striking business owners as Amini protests hit 83rd day"

Al Jazeera: " alleged crime stemming from the country’s ongoing protests"

South China Morning Post: "in the face of the protests that flared over the September 16 death of Mahsa Amini"

Der Spiegel (German) "Iranische Gerichte haben Todesurteile gegen mehrere Teilnehmer der Massenproteste verhängt."

This is just a selection, of course, but these are sources from various regions and ideological angles, from the last few days. A google search for Iran uprising shows that while there are people referring to it as such, these are not major news outlets and many come from a rather specific ideological angle (The NCRI and Dissent Magazine, while interesting, would hardly be considered neutral, unbiased observers). I would speculate that for this to progress from protests to an uprising or a revolution, we would need to see actual political change or organized fighting against the regime, which from my understanding has not happened yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David12345 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that MEK = NCRI = PMOI = NLA is a cult whose official leader retains his position while being of unknown live/dead status since 2003; it's a poor source. But when leftwing Dissent (American magazine) and rightwing The American Conservative agree with each other that there's an uprising, that suggests that the interpretation is not just from one side of the political spectrum.

... actual political change: direct control of bureaucratic and institutional power has not shifted (as far as I know), but taboos of behaviour have been dramatically changed: women with uncovered hair, people scolding clerics in public places, clerics' turbans being pushed off their heads, and senior administrative officials being vigorously argued against in university auditoriums - these are actual political changes, widely documented as a shift in political power. Politics is about how people organise together and decide who does what and the who/how/when/where of ordering or persuading others to do things; it's not about formal institutions alone. Boud (talk) 01:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

That some left- and rightwing sources are describing it as an uprising, while most mainstream sources are not, is not adequate reason to use the term. Moving beyond the name Mahsa Amini might seem like a sensible change, but I would caution against it: it is both recognizable and distinctive. Changing it to something like 2022 Iran protests or something along those lines would make it more generic and bland, and make it look like another in a long line of protests and unrests. It would deny, rather than confirm, the exceptional character of the current protests.

Secondly, I would agree with you that considerable social change has occured, but we have no idea whether or not this will last (much as I or others might hope it does). David12345 (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Good point about the "Mahsa Amini" name being more recognizable and precise (two of the WP:CRITERIA for a good title) than "Iran", since there have been many protests in Iran in the past, and there likely will be in the future too (whether or not there's a radical change in the constitution). Mahsa Amini uprising would seem OK to me, but I'm not aware of that being used in any sources; so that would argue for retaining Mahsa Amini protests, except for the fact that the events are a lot more than just protests.

Whether or not the sociopolitical changes remain in the long term doesn't affect the title of the current set of events; there have been plenty of failed (in the sense of not immediately achieving a major transition of political power) uprisings, such as the Kościuszko Uprising, the Denisko uprising, the Kraków uprising, the January Uprising, the Łódź insurrection, and the Baikal Insurrection. Boud (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The shift in power may be happening. https://www.iranintl.com/en/202212077198 This article shows that Iran's leaders are eyeing Venezuela as a safe haven. Progressivepen (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

This is the same website that was claiming 15000 protestors were going to get hanged and a same article in 2019 claiming that they were moving to Russia.

They cite the same "source" they usually cite for that kind of claim, someone that they don't even know themselves.

Made for the sole purpose of making people believe this is nearly the end and that they should risk their lives a little bit more to obtain freedom and democracy. Tsunet (talk) 01:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support 2022 Iranian uprising I agree with the sources that Boud and Sunfyre gave above. It seems its grown past the size of a protest, its grown to the level of an uprising. And the fact that the uprising is now more than just about Mahsa Amini. Julianstout (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

  I would argue that an uprising isn't the correct term to use. According to Webster dictionary, an uprising is a brief, ineffective rebellion. That does not apply to the current situation in Iran. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uprising Progressivepen (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  Neither brief nor ineffective are used in that definition. If you're going to introduce things to this discussion, please represent them honestly. It does mention that 'uprising' is especially used for local acts, which might be relevant since these are nationwide events. David12345 (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with Progressivepen, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uprising under "choose the right synonym" states that "UPRISING implies a brief, limited, and often immediately ineffective rebellion." Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, both brief and ineffective are used in the definition. If you scroll down, you will see it. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uprising Copy and pasted from Miriam Webster for your convenience :"UPRISING implies a brief, limited, and often immediately ineffective rebellion." Progressivepen (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support changing the name as it seems that sources agree it has gone past simply the protests around Mahsa Amini's death. I would support 2022 Iranian protests, rather than uprising as it seems most RS given above track with this, but would definitely rather have uprising than revolution if it comes down to those two. Yeoutie (talk) 05:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  We've been through this discussion at least 5 times in my count already. 2022 Iranian protests doesn't work because it will easily be confused with other protests that happened over the same year, and because the protests will probably continue over the next year as well, at which point we'll have to do another move discussion. Another major reason is that Mahsa Amini protests is the most common name for these events in the media, regardless whether it's an appropriate name or not. This discussion is about whether the term "protests" should be replaced with "uprising" or "revolution", not whether Mahsa Amini's name should be removed from the title; which I'm personally fine with in principle, as long as the title is unique and unambiguous, which "uprising" or "revolution" would achieve.-- Ideophagous (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree there have been a number of protests in Iran this year due to sanitation, health, currency inflation, and food shortages. 2022 Iranian protests would remove the gravity of the movement, and also true that it has gone beyond Mahsa Amini. Progressivepen (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  The protests may have also been attributed to other issues, but the main event that sparked them was Amini's killing. ZionNOPfan (talk) 14:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• Why are we so hung up on linguistics? ZionNOPfan (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  I'm surprised no one has replied to you, but it's because language matters. Ex. if you say Defund Police versus Reallocation of police budgets, they're essentially the same thing, but they carry a totally different weight, and they have the capacity to turn people off or make them curious for more. Essentially, language is what we use to shape, define, and interpret our world, so it is vital to use the words the right words. Words have the power to illuminate the message, and they have the power to quell, and even erase events. Progressivepen (talk) 15:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• Wait It's currently protests but the protesters haven't really gotten violent to my knowledge and I wouldn't call it a revolution unless the government is deposed. And I doubt it'll end before the year ends. People never seem to call an event a revolution until after it ends. QuarioQuario54321 (talk) 15:09, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Continuation into 2023 is not a counterargument: a later change from 2022 Iranian uprising to 2022–2023 Iranian uprising would most likely not be controversial. Boud (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

That is an incorrect statement, the protests have been incredibly violent. However, because of the governmental control on weapons, the type of violence doesn't look the same as it does in other countries, say USA with the 2nd amendment. lol. Nonetheless, the protesters have become violent. Videos show them lighting government buildings on fire, pulling turbans off of mullahs, and lighting cocktail bombs to throw at government officials. In attempts to squash it, videos have also surfaced of the government shooting protesters, running them over with their cars, and also scuffles between protesters and secret police have been recorded. There is a current crisis in Iran that many young people are blind because of the shotgun pellets that have been shot at a close range. I was listening to an interview with a member of the secret police, Basij, and he verified this. Moreover, the violence has spread to hospitals because protesters who need medical attention have entered hospitals, and the police have started to crack down on doctors. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)02157-2/fulltext?rss=yes&fbclid=IwAR287HEoq4MoCJ5o6kvsFxsfs-MTBNlgz6n8H2M-Y0TUgSyzP6UwzhODnrk https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/379/bmj.o2785.full.pdf?casa_token=GB_Euk-R87QAAAAA:wRplNEZ3o3gRA2aC4J6oB9kklt5tlzzPoOlGWOiPWjdNUKKSBtdqUcpwfcMWKhWvVhNYf-MDVcX4OBs Pretty crazy, huh? There are a number of media articles, but both of these are peer reviewed articles. Progressivepen (talk) 17:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

John Bolton has admitted to protesters (terrorists) being armed with guns. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 09:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

so sad, https://iranwire.com/en/politics/111407-tehran-doctor-tortured-and-killed-for-treating-wounded-protesters/ Progressivepen (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Wait, "uprising" or "revolution" doesn't see appropriate yet. Fun Is Optional (talk page) (please ping on reply) 23:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• OpposeThe Mahsa Amini protest existed in the past and are still ongoing. If they lead to an uprising it is worth a new article.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support changing the name as it seems to be a revolution at this point Alllllkjh (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Protests is a perfectly accurate description. Yellow Vest protests have been going on for longer in France with violence and deaths as well, but are not labeled as an uprising or revolution. Revolution especially is extremely premature considering that there is no sign that there will be a change of government, no coherent ideology, no leader or organization that would take power, etc. There is no objective way it can be called a revolution unless many other criteria are met. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 09:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
• Massively oppose Definition of a revolution: "a change to the way a country is governed usually to a different political system and often using violence and war."

No key events and actions are taking place at all for a sudden overthrow or surrender of the current government to happen:

-Very low number of protesters, 2% of the Iranian population would be needed at least to make an impact, more than 2 million of Iranians, believing that there is actually a massive uprising or revolution occuring actually is probably induced by people not living inside Iran and trying to be their global spokespersons.

-No support at all from the army or the IRGC and it is really unlikely that IRGC would join these causes that are happening every two or three years in Iran for more than four decades, mostly everytime having foreign entities posing as the vultures waiting for two animals of the same race and blood to kill eachother and take what is left from them, seeking personal interests having nothing to do with Iran.

-In order to make the current system and people surrender, they should take official infrastructures one by one while having both armies in their side.

-No action took by the "revolutionaries" to shut down completely the economy (all shops and most crucial money and food generating shops and industries completely closed for example), there was only "actions" on social medias which consisted of geolocating precisely store and groceries that interacted with IRI and threatening the owners to close their shops to not have their store burnt or vandalized, and in general trying to force a revolt, which makes no sense for what is supposed to be a revolution.

-No credible opposition at all, no politic program proposal, who will replace an imaginary overthrow? Who will get suddenly the country back up economically bringing instantly a democracy to 85 million of people of multi ethnic and culture and "liberate them" from the current regime? There are multiple far right neocons think tanks and Israeli organization advocating to "dismantle Iran and liberate the minority from the Persian opressor".

If "a large portion of Iranians" were supporting that cause, it would actually mean indirectly that Iranians are the biggest bastard people on earth, allowing to get put into slavery, "starving", living in digged holes and risking to get killed or executed for nothing as a lot of these outlets imply.

Just being honest and not biased for IRI or anyone else, but there is barely protests and riots left compared to two months and mostly groups acting at midnight at least in the capital. We sold an umpteenth dream to the youth using the same methods that always failed, channels and influencers telling them to risk their life and that it is going to change and become free and rich, while it was just selling another "revolution" killing people that were trusting in it.

The problem is that half of the article's sources comes from Iran International, AlArabiya which are both totally Saudi state funded and does not have any ads, making lives 24*7, using fearmongering, exaggerate a lot on what is happening, taking footage of "closed stores" at 6am and teaches people how to make lethal weapons and wasting youth lives that really trust that the situation could change. This outlet was also the root source of multiple false informations such as 15000 protesters to get hanged or making photoshop montages of Navid Afkari, pasting his face into another Iranian olympic champion, when he had in reality no record of competitive wrestling.

The rest of the sources are websites like the Komala one (first time i see a website from a group designed as terrorist and separatist movement not only by Iran on Wikipedia) and JP or IranWire, known for their conspiracy theories and totally unknown writers, with a very opaque description about how so much articles pops out from this website without any ads or donations.

This should stay how it is, like said above, it resembles a lot to the yellow vests, big movement at the start that quickly fade out but still present at small scale, and nothing won at all.

hange in the way a country is governed usually to a different political system and often using violence awar Tsunet (talk) 01:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place for personal (and false) opinions that are not backed by reliable sources. You've just exposed yourself as being heavily biased toward the regime, which makes you unqualified for giving opinions on this article. Ms372 (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

@Tsunet and Ms372: Both of you: please let's focus on arguments for and against the two proposed new titles (or other titles) based on reliable sources with a variety of biases, whether or not that evidence agrees with our personal judgment (which at most should be brief comments). This also means avoiding personal attacks. Most of us are quite likely biased on this topic; that does not disqualify us from presenting sources that argue for or against the proposed titles. (Some of us present what look like the best sources especially when that disagrees with our own bias.) Reality is not always how we want it to be. New !voters and the closing uninvolved person will look for evidence (sources) and arguments based on Wikipedia guidelines and policy; they won't be interested in our own unpublished evidence or in people attacking each other. Thanks! Boud (talk) 23:15, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Fox news "Iran executed second detainee over anti-theocracy protest"

BBC"Authorities in Iran have executed two men convicted of vaguely defined national security charges linked to the anti-government protests"

France24 "Iran protests: Look back at the last 12 weeks"

TheGuardian "Iran carries out second execution linked to nationwide protests

It would make the article massively unbalanced by what a minority views compared to what reliable sources are publishing, at least for now WP:MINORASPECT WP:WEIGHTWP:BALANCE

as for @Progressivepen, this is something that there is allegedly huge strikes happening, but that there is a revolution happening is another, and the majority of reliable sources are describing the event as either protests, unrests and uprising

Also i wasn't aware Wikipedia users needed qualifications for giving their opinion on an article Tsunet (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

How are you getting that from what @Bout is saying? As I see it, he is saying quite the opposite: people can contribute to this process regardless of their personal background or biases, so long as they stick to sources other than themselves (WP:OR) and stick to arguments that align with Wikipedia policy. This is our task as editors, not giving our own opinions or analysis of the situation. David12345 (talk) 07:41, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you. This is erroneous and biased Progressivepen (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

You say "regime", which exposes you as a US imperialist who is extremely biased and by the same reasoning, shouldn't be allowed to say anything. Don't be dishonest and hypocritical. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 03:19, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

By calling an Iranian who's living under this regime a US imperialist, you sound extremely ignorant and uninformed. Ms372 (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's one thing to be an imperialist puppet of the Shah. It is another thing to recognize the Islamic regime's crimes against humanity, the history of disappearances, censorship, and torture. In Farsi, both Islamic regime (rejim eslami) and Islamic republic (jomhuri eslami) have been used.

Interesting note, why is this conversation not also happening in Farsi? It sounds a little exclusionary to discuss this in English when the people who are experiencing it first hand (journalists, scholars, and activists) probably wouldn't be able to read this entire thread. Just a thought. Boud, maybe you can help clarify. Is there a Farsi version of this thread? Progressivepen (talk) 23:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Not to say that we can't learn things from Persian sources, but I don't think they'll be especially helpful in determining which English noun best describes the ongoing events, given how they are, well, not in English. David12345 (talk) 23:44, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

That is a good point, but I guess it may help to understand what noun they are assigning to it. For example, if it is called a protest, uprising, revolution, or riot in Farsi Wikipedia, it may help give clarity and consistency to this discussion in English Wikipedia. Progressivepen (talk) 02:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure what news sources you follow, but there were quite a few videos of the three day strikes, during which the entire Bazaars were closed. If you know about Persian and Middle Eastern history, you know that Bazaars have a vital role in the economy, but that they are open: rain, shine, sanctions, war. For the bazaars to close for three entire days and essentially all the non-essential businesses to close for 3 days is huge.

Here are a few articles to show you photos of the three day strikes: the three day strike: The guardian

three day strike Iranian International

The Grand Bazaar of Tehran closed, which is a huge deal Progressivepen (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Iranian history, the country is Iran.

Iran International is Saudi propaganda, not very progressive of you.

Anyway, those pictures were taken before the shops were open.

You should provide non-Western sources instead of the same lying sources that also claimed babies were taken out of incubators, Iraq had WMDs, and Gaddafi was giving Viagra to his soldiers. These are not credible sources, they have a proven record of lies and propaganda. 68.93.143.10 (talk) 03:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

The country is Iran now, but for most of its history was called Persia, and its history can accurately be called so. As for the bazaars, if you want us to discredit that claim, please provide some WP:RS, not just what you claim these pictures show. As it stands, we have your opinion against published mainstream media. In either case, it is a red herring in this discussion. David12345 (talk) 07:41, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Your response is a bit naive and short sighted. First, the Iranian government heavily controls the media. Iran has a lot of media outlets https://www.parstimes.com/IL5.html, but for the most part these operate outside of the country. Frequently, journalists and reporters that do not endorse the government agenda have been imprisoned. Here is more up to date info by Doctors without Borders https://rsf.org/en/country/iran.

I supplied the articles from Iran International and WallStreet Journal because these seem more reputable for Wikipedia than Instagram video from Iranians who documented these happenings. Just FYI, the name of the Instagram account that has been used as a source for many articles is 1500tasvir. They have provided photos and videos of the entire movement, documented with location and time. This is not a Western source, and unfortunately, it is instagram, so it is not reputable either. But in case anyone wants to see what happens in the day to day, they are documenting it. https://www.instagram.com/1500tasvir/?hl=en

More articles that documented the three day strike:

https://www.voanews.com/a/protesters-in-iran-press-on-with-3-day-national-strike/6864998.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/05/iran-denies-abolition-of-morality-police-as-three-day-strike-begins.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iranian-city-shops-shut-step-up-pressure-clerical-rulers-2022-12-05/

https://nowthisnews.com/news/watch-iran-protesters-organize-3-day-mass-strike

Now, if you want a news agency from Iran to document the strike, that is quite naive. After all, those were the same media outlets that denied the government had anything to do with Amini's death. 2601:580:8202:8A0:0:0:0:70C2 (talk) 13:24, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

My response was naive? I was agreeing with the idea of the strikes being legitimate. David12345 (talk) 13:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry David, I meant to reply to the person before you! I replied from my phone (hence the no username) and hit the wrong reply button. Progressivepen (talk) 21:19, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

You discard all western sources as propaganda, but I'm the one who's biased? Don't be dishonest and hypocritical. Ms372 (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per David12345. It's still basically about the protests, and described as such in sources. Saying it's now something bigger looks a little OR to me...  — Amakuru (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2022

This change was onto something, but it should probably be: Islamic Republic of Iran. The current situation implies the protests are aiming to dismantle the country, rather than its current government. David12345 (talk) 22:20, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The dismantlement of Iran and the genocide of Iranians has been for long advocated by Israel and its allies https://besacenter.org/dismantle-iran-now/

Israel will do everything it can to provoke civil unrest in Iran with one clear intention, to break Iran up based on ethnic divides at whatever cost.

Here are a few steps that have been proposed.

• Cut water to Southern provinces.
• Add pollution to the soil in order to poison the population.
• Create environmental crisis in provinces with nuclear reactors.
• Increase public hangings to create fear and hatred of the central government.
• Start separatist movements in Ahvaz.
• Cut off alliances between Iran and regional groups.
• Convince Iran's opposition groups to accept the breakup of Iran along ethnic lines.

This authors policy position is to defeat Iran's regime and break the country at the same time, including getting benefits such as -95% discounted oil and gas from newly formed Arabistan, religiously trained by Saudi Arabia to introduce Wahhabism, thus avoiding any Shia or Persian oppressors interference. Tsunet (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The ayatollahs are imposing their clothing fetish on 87 million people regardless of the costs. Don't blame Israel, Saudi Arabia, or other blameless nations.--24.99.88.116 (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Please get consensus and then reactivate the protected edit template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:25, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2023

The hyperlink for 'Mahsa Amini' she be changed to Mahsa Amini. Frank VII (talk) 19:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Adding Notes about youth?

The "protests" section goes into detail about economic grievances driving the protests, but it might be good to add a sentence or two on youth. E.g. this source on how Gen Z is driving protests , or this academic source on how generations have radicalized with regard to protests . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.248.183.8 (talk) 11:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Changing the name of the article

What are some names that we could change the article to? i think that this subject has gone far beyond a protest. Starman2377 (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed, the most recent conversation was closed about a month ago. Please read Talk:Mahsa_Amini_protests/Archive_2#Requested move 9 December 2022 and see if after reading that you feel the situation has changed enough since then. David12345 (talk) 17:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ive changed my mind, thanks. Starman2377 (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 20:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

---

Mahsa Amini protests → 2022 Iranian anti-hijab protests – The current title has become increasingly redundant as the protests have gone on, and is not descriptive. The wave of demonstrations has became about something much bigger than any individual, with the key issues being opposition to mandatory hijab laws and the abuses by the guidance patrols and the state at large in enforcing them. The more descriptive name that has emerged for this is "anti-hijab protests". We see this in news, where the term "anti-hijab protests" dominates compared to references to "Mahsa Amini protests". "Anti-hijab protests" is also already the terminology in the emergent academic literature on the subject [3] [4]. The current title is neither the common name, nor descriptive. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:59, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose It goes far deeper than just "opposition to mandatory hijab laws and the abuses by the guidance patrols and the state at large in enforcing them". There are numerous references from Reuters and Guardian inside this very article which elaborate about the ongoing unrest in Iran in detail. The anti-hijab part is just one of the many facets of a movement that is vehemently in opposition to many foundations of Iran's post-1979 rulership. Something like "2022-2023 anti-Iranian government protests" would be even more fitting than anything with the words "anti-hijab" in its title IMO. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Counter Because George Floyd has a protest article in his name, this article should follow the same due to it being a similar recognition of protest for them. 130.160.194.93 (talk) 17:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it does go deeper than an anti-hijab stance; it also goes deeper than Mahsa Amini. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: First, these protests are not anti-hijab; rather, they are anti-compulsory-hijab (women with hijab were also arrested during these protests, notably Fatemeh Sepehri.) Second, even this does not explain the vast majority of the protests, which are largely anti-Iranian-regime in nature. In fact, the mandatory hijab is one component of the protest. After all, protests were started with a woman being killed while in police custody. Women-life-liberty-revolution (talk) 06:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It's just a name, just as with the 2022 Iranian food protests. It began in relation to the compulsory hijab, and hence that is how it is characterized. Naming is not meant to be a discussion about what people think it should be called, but what sources actually call it. I've provided links showing the balance of news coverage and the usage in the emerging academic literature. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It's just an inaccurate name, which may lead to erroneous assumptions about the content of the article. Sometimes, the only information a reader will glean on a topic is the article's title. Therefore, we should be careful that the information presented in the title is correct and not misleading.    — The Transhumanist   17:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

OpposeMahsa Amini died and with her death a wave of protests began. Other protests are other protests. Common name should also be thought of before creating a new article.Paradise Chronicle (talk)

Oppose I agree with LouisAragon. The range of social and economic reasons behind this uprising is far beyond the mandatory hijab, even though the initial spark was related to the hijab issue. Considering the nature of these protests, the proposed title is not comprehensive. -- Mahan (talk) 10:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - It's not limited to 2022, as the unrest is still going on and it is now 2023. Also, the protests have grown to become anti-regime, not just anti-issue. The more people the regime has killed, maimed, or imprisoned, the angrier and more determined the citizens have become. They want the current government out. The movement is beginning to verge upon becoming a revolution and escalating into a full-blown civil war. An anti-issue title doesn't capture the essence of the situation. Mahsa Amini has become the symbol that everyone has rallied behind, as her death portrays the repressive nature of the regime they are protesting against, and her name is still prominent in news stories covering the conflict. And though the affair has since become a massacre (of over 500), her death ignited the conflict, and so, so far, the conflict is named for her.    — The Transhumanist   17:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose because this has become much broader in scope and goes beyond anti-hijab sentiments. Keeping the current name seems best, because the death of Mahsa Amini was the notable event which sparked visible dissent and opposition to the status quo. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 06:01, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Estar8806 (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose because such a title is not representative of the Iranian protestors in general. Reducing the ongoing protests as an "anti-Hijab" movement is limited to certain Western media depictions and is a xenophobic narrative espoused by fringe elements. The protests are an indigineously driven movement and many Hijab wearing women have been active in these protests. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 11:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 January 2023

add this file to Reactions topic: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mahsa_Amini_i%C3%A7in_iki_eylemci,_%C4%B0stanbul.jpg ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 15:01, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

because i think it is good to describe how neighbour countries react.. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 15:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%C4%B0ran_%C4%B0slam_Cumhuriyeti_Ba%C5%9Fkonsoloslu%C4%9Fu_yak%C4%B1n%C4%B1nda_y%C4%B1rt%C4%B1lm%C4%B1%C5%9F_mahsa_amini_afi%C5%9Fi.jpg also this too! ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 15:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Not seeing the benefit of adding these two images. The first is of two people and the lighting is such that it is pretty hard to tell what is being depicted. Two people is not a particularly notable demonstration, especially when the image already in that section shows several hundred. Similar issues with the second image, you can only barely make out Mahsa Amini's name on that sticker and nothing can easily be inferred by looking at this weirdly lit photo of a partially torn sticker. Cannolis (talk) 04:07, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

first: the lightning is bad. i know. but outside of iran, there is nothing like this photo. look: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Solidarity_demonstrations_related_to_Mahsa_Amini_protests_outside_Iran

second: ""you can only barely make out Mahsa Amini's name on that sticker and nothing can easily be inferred by looking at this weirdly lit photo of a partially torn sticker."" thats the whole point. it got torned up. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

also i uploaded better version of it, look @Cannolis: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Solidarity_demonstrations_related_to_Mahsa_Amini_protests_in_Turkey#/media/File:Mahsa_Amini_i%C3%A7in_iki_eylemci,_%C4%B0stanbul_edit.jpg ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

• 
  unedited version
• 
  edited version

no too much diffrence... but still better. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 20:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree, slightly better, but the whole image still doesn't aid in understanding. I'm not sure what you mean by "outside of iran, there is nothing like this photo". Aside from the image from Germany already linked in this article, there are multiple images on Reactions to the Mahsa Amini protests. As to the sticker - what does a torn sticker show? Was it someone trying to show support for the protests or anger at them? Or maybe someone just trying to clean up a light pole? That's what I meant by saying that a viewer cannot easily infer anything from that picture. Cannolis (talk) 22:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

about torn sticker: it is just next of IRI embassy in istanbul. and it is anger at them. i guess it is another good photo. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 01:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

"No Centralized Leadership"

Over the past month or so, a group of eight opposition diaspora figures (Reza Pahlavi, Masih Alinejad, Shirin Ebadi, Hamed Esmaeilion, Nazanin Boniadi, Abdulla Mohtadi, Golshifteh Farahani, and Ali Karimi) has taken shape and has begun to perform tasks such as attempt to negotiate with governments on the movement's behalf and make calls for protests. Additionally, these eight will be having a virtual event Friday (2/10/23) to discuss the publication of a manifesto of what a post-Islamic-Republic Iran could look like, creating a roadmap to successfully removing the Islamic Republic from power, coordinating protests and general strikes, as well as funding the latter, and gathering diplomatic support for the movement. Although it is too early to change the wording of the Wikipedia article now, I highly suggest those with higher editing clearance on this than me watch this event, because if this meeting amounts to these steps, the time could be approaching to change the "no centralized leadership" description of leadership on the protesters' side. 76.74.35.243 (talk) 04:04, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

No centralized leadership should be removed

Recently the opposition has become more centralized under 8 figures. I suggest you add them 71.218.122.218 (talk) 21:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Edit: Global Participation in the Movement

The movement has received support from the Iranian diaspora and the global community through protests that have taken place from North America to Europe and many more. For instance, there are weekly demonstrations at the Vancouver Art Gallery in Canada. As reported, "lining nearly two kilometers of streets from the Art Gallery to Stanley Park."

Rozycan (talk) 18:50, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Notification

There is a a discussion here that might affect this page. I encourage you to participate. Charles Essie (talk) 23:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

It's a move discussion that could determine whether or not these protests should be considered separate from the ones that began in 2021. This is something that has been discussed multiple times and I think we need to finally settle it. Charles Essie (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 March 2023

TYPO: In the section "Historical Background", change "an series" to "a series" for grammatical correctness. This error is contained in the following sentence: "Bloody Aban (Persian: آبان خونین), a month near November in the Iranian calendar, was an series of 2019 protests". IrvingWashington88 (talk) 06:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lizthegrey (talk) 07:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Please add wikilink to Iranian schoolgirls mass poisoning reports

In the Suspected mass poisoning section of this article, please link to the Iranian schoolgirls mass poisoning reports article. Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 12:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

New Article Iranian Democracy Movement

Please contribute to this new, related article. These are the section headers so far; you can help decide what belongs where. There is some overlap with this article I think, and with Woman, Life, Freedom

Mousavi's Call for A Referendum

2023 "Future of the Movement" Summit and Joint Charter

Trade Unions Joint Charter

2023 U.S. House Resolution 100

2022 Free Iran World Summit

2021 Free Iran World Summit

2020 Free Iran World Summit

U.S. House Resolution 374

Organized Resistance Groups

       National Council of Iran
       National Council of Resistance of Iran
       Organization of Iranian American Communities
       Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan
   Protests 2016 - Present
   Historic Antecedents
   Criticism

Regards, Jaredscribe (talk) 04:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 May 2023

Can you please add the following text to the end of the "executions" subsection of the "Causalities" section:

On 19 May 2023, three more men, Majid Kazemi, Saleh Mirhashemi, and Saeed Yaqoubi, were executed in connection with the protests.

Thanks. Madeline at Freedom Now (talk) 22 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done lizthegrey (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Reliable sources at WP flopped

NY Times and many other WP sacrosanct sources published false reports. Now we see that the ayatollahs are clapping back with a vengeance 2601:C4:C300:3460:7479:E70F:F23:EE3 (talk) 20:06, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Which references specifically are inaccurate? - Indefensible (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Are the protests over?

The mass protests seemed to have fizzled out. Would it be fair to put an end date on it for around Early January 2023? 2600:1700:D87A:1A60:4592:695B:B851:9A2A (talk) 20:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

They were definitely over back in January. critical threats did an analysis of this previously proving it, link below.

https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/iran-crisis-update-january-20

Now its just sporadic one-time protests related to prisoners facing execution, and mourning protests for those killed or executed.

Also keep in mind the weekly protests in sistan-baluchistan after friday prayers are completely different from the mahsa amini protests, they are more about baluchi rights (if not outright autonomy or separatism), lead by a sunni cleric and all the women there are at least wearing hijab (but mainly all-encompassing chador).

I'm trying to ask admins to fix the statements claiming the protests are ongoing, and to stop changing the monthly date. It's no longer on-going, at least on a regular basis like it used to back in September-November. Ass711 (talk) 23:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

The Mashsa Amini protests are not just about hijab. The slogans they use are the same as those used in Baluchestan, and the messaging is the same: regime change. The protests in Baluchestan are not about separatism, they are about freedom (as in the rest of the country -- Woman, Life Freedom) and the separatist voice is only a minority. You are a self-declared shill of the Islamic Republic, and you are clearly trying to twist the narrative by, inter alia, fear-mongering. --24.225.217.56 (talk) 00:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

"The protests have continued since then, though have become much less intense due to a bloody crackdown by security forces." BBC, June 28 Once WP:RS start referring to the protests in the past tense, we can do the same. That said, we should probably put a sentence in the lead section about the protests having peaked. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 02:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope, still appears to be continuing. - Indefensible (talk) 15:43, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The demonstrations are over, and the article is about demonstrations. But the "Woman, Life, Freedom movement" is still alive. The movement needs a separate article (in the Persian Wikipedia there are two articles: one regarding the street protests and chantings which are over, and one regarding the movement itself which is still alive by not wearing the headscarves). Aminabzz (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The demonstrations are still ongoing. "The city has seen protest rallies almost every Friday since September 30 of last year, when security forces killed nearly 100 people in the deadliest incident in the nationwide demonstrations sparked by the death in police custody of Mahsa Amini" -- Ideophagous (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

Under the "Protest movements under the Islamic Republic" section, in the last sentence, replace "Mahsa Amino" with "Mahsa Amini". Pandaninjas3017 (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 03:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2023

Change "females" to "women and girls" on this page. The sentence should read:

"Women and girls, including schoolchildren..."

Source: https://www.media-diversity.org/how-to-be-inclusive-and-grammatically-correct-a-guide-for-journalists-on-the-gender-beat/ Oodalolly (talk) 18:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: no reason given for the proposed change. M.Bitton (talk) 23:55, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

It is generally not good to use "females" as a collective noun for women and girls. However "Women and girls, including schoolchildren" is also problematic since if they are young enough to be called girls, then you would expect them to be in school, so it seems redundant. I changes it to "Female protesters, including schoolchildren . . . " so it presents them as primarily as protesters. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)