Talk:Malaysia–Philippines relations

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Malaysia support for the MNLF[edit]

As per ChipmunkDavis revert here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia%E2%80%93Philippines_relations&action=history), he said:

"source does not support idea that massacres of Filipino Muslims was somehow some sort of justified action against the Malaysian government"

@Chipmunkdavis isn't it clearly put in the news article that the formation of MNLF Muslim anti Filipino Insurgent Group in Malaysia to infiltrate Muslim Mindanao in 1969 was before the 1970s Martial Law massacres of Malaysian supported MNLF insurgents?

The timing is pretty obvious how Malaysians attacked first. Yet you selectively erase this inconvenient truth, on Malaysia's part.

Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extrapolating cause and effect from timing is WP:OR. Such a statement would need direct sourcing, and would need to be written in an encyclopaedic tone. As for the meritless personal attack, I suggest this is something you should withdraw. CMD (talk) 15:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Im open to have the statement modified to mutually satisfy us, what then should you propose would be a better presentation as per the sources mentioned?
Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also lol at the accusations of me directly quoting from the source, being "non neutral" POV. We both know that you are non neutral too, you are the largest contributor to the Wikipedia project for Malaysia. You are very personally invested in Malaysia...
(https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Malaysia)
I also admit that I am also personally invested the Philippines since I am your Filipino counterpart.
(https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Philippines)
If we cannot amicably agree on a mutually satisfactory solution. I suggest we ask for intervention from more neutral editors.
@Austronesier since you have been fair to me, correcting me when I'm wrong and also applauding me when I'm right do chime in on this topic.
Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 15:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr.: I will not chime in before you don't strike out that shit about other editors being "personally invested" blah blah. WP is not a proxy battleground. Accusing Chipmunkdavis of such a mentality is baseless. If you claim such an attitude for yourself, that's entirely credible from your record, but not productive for our shared engagement in this encyclopedic project. I could use even harsher words and still remain fair and neutral. –Austronesier (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you have that opinion on me, its fine by me. I invited someone who is willing to antagonize me to show that I am willing to compromise. This isnt about me by the way. Its about the sources and issue at hand. Is it not true that I directly quoted from the source? If it does not satisify me nor Chipmunkdavis, what iteration or modification of the statement true to the source, do you think would be sufficient to satisfy us both?
Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it is about you. You apparently cannot enter into a discussion without insinuating a bias on the part of your interlocutor (which you derive from edit counts, seriously?); that's poor ad hominem-style reasoning.
Another thing that's poor is the sourcing for the statement the "Malaysia [...] founded the anti government MNLF in 1969". You provide a 1976 quote that does not even support the founding role of "Malaysia". First of all, the source speaks about the "Malaysian government", not the country of Malaysia. Secondly the source says that the Malaysian government provided training, transportation, weapons, and ammunition. No mention of manpower and financing. Thirdly, there is no mention of Malayia or its government as the "founder" of the MNLF. No, you have not directly from the source. –Austronesier (talk) 16:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I see. I should remove the other mentions then, confine it to only the Malaysian government but not Malaysia as a whole and just stick to training, transportation, weapons, and ammunition and that it was organized in Palau Pangkor, West Malaysia, but not founded there as per source. Is it that a better iteration?
Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 16:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also drop "anti-Philippine" or "anti-government" when the source says "anti-regime" and "anti-Marcos". –Austronesier (talk) 16:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok obliged. Thank You Austronesier for your fair and balanced critique. :) Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 16:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of this should be in that area at all. The existing text is already an odd diversion into general history from the specific topic of the 2013 Lahad Datu standoff. It should be removed, with the possibility of reshaping it into something more well-placed and relevant, rather than more decades-old stuff being added to where it is. CMD (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it should be chronologically placed earlier in the article. :)
Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr. (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please revert, the current text still delves into SYNTH and retains a lack of relation to the area it's in. CMD (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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