Talk:Marcel Bigeard

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Untitled[edit]

Added decorations and some details of early career verified from "Pour une parcelle de gloire" which is of course biased. Facius 13:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added Alistair Horne Reference - Pages 167-169 cover most of the biographical detail here --Cj tyche 19:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewed and expanded biography, added Bernard Fall text as reference for Indochina statistics. removed clean up header. Much of the other biographic data is also from Horne, but because it was gleaned from multiple pages removed the specific page references in the book citation. Added algerian and post war information as well as bibliograpghy. Bibiliography was taken from the french version of this page.

I removed the "his destiny awaits" because it sounded too ornate and suggests a foregone event which does not sit well with a nutral(sp?) reference.

I removed the original "the massacre that never occured" and cited the casualties sustained by the french during the battle. Most of the deaths were sustained after the battle during the forced marches and captivity ( For citation see Fall, Hell in a very small place. pg 438) I cannnot leave the remark in place when the french lost at least 80% of the men they committed to the battle.

I'm going out on a limb but without being able to read a copy of bigeards intelligence officers handbook I can only infer its influence on Trinquier. It seems a bit unseemly to draw a direct link between bigeards text, trinquiers text, the US counterinsurgency doctrine, and latin american counter insurgency traing ending in repression in chile and argentina. I do think referencing the use of torture and its negative outcome on the war is sufficient.Summerlong01 03:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and have posted a request for sources on this Torture thing. As far as i am aware the first public admittance by anyone senior to torture was by General Aussaresses in "Pour la France", 2001. As far as i am aware no written document had surfaced before this which admitted to teh torture, let alone supported it. Facius 23:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added ISBN's I could confirm, gave more info on ww II escape, added information on training school set up in philipeville. returned photographs after updating license details.

As far as i am aware the trainng school was on how to fight guerillas successfully rather than intelligence per-se. At least that's the impression Bigeard gives in "Pour une parcelle de gloire". Facius 23:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing left I would like to add is a list of decorations, I keep seeing referenced that he is France's most highly decorated soldier, but the context is vague (Highest ever?, highest still alive?) regardless I'll see if can find any published information on decorations and honors received.Summerlong01 00:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have added from a web site i found. Facius 23:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a source for the comment that the "Agounnennda" operation was inconclusive ? 108/~300 captured or killed was a lot better than par for the period and region if i read the books correctly. His own account of the battle gives huge credit to his adversaries and also says that Bigeard's superior, Massu, credited Bigeard with having created a unit capable of rapid, light touch, well executed movement and then says that the result should be studied by all corps commanders in the northern zone of algeria and cited as an example. [Bigeard, p 298,(1975)] Facius 23:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the term inconclusive is inappropriate. In Horne, A Savage War of Peace,pg 253-254. He wrote that "a more dispassionate observer might have questioned whether, if Bigeard's crack troops could not score a total victory on its own terms forces, there was much hope for winning more elusive engagements in a war that might be indefinitely prolonged.". Less than total victory might be more accurate. As for the Jeanne D'Arc training school I would have to agree with you. The only information I have on it is from the photographers description of the school from the ECPAD website "Située à Philippeville, l'école Jeanne d'Arc est créée par le colonel Bigeard dans le but de faire bénéficier les capitaines d'une formation concrète sur la contre guérilla. Le stage dure un mois et permet d'acquérir des connaissances tirées de l'exemple des parachutistes rompus aux opérations sur le terrain. Cette école est surnomée "l'école des capitaines". Describing the facility as a training school for teaching counter insurgency might be more accurate.Summerlong01 16:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would Tazmaniacs like to explain why the first paragraph/intro is now dominated by references to torture ? Should his (Bigeard's) comments on this dominate an overview of his life and achievements in the way it now does ? Would that represent a balanced view ? Indeed the massive rewrite of the Algerian section suggests that Tazmaniacs might be French Speaking and have a particular interest/bias in this matter. The text seems to suggest that the political system did not approve of torture but if i read general aussaresse correctly he said that mitterand ordered 'all means' to be used and when pressed as to whether he meant all means he said yes. This does not come out as the 'torture enhanced' text now reads. Interestingly the french wikipedia does not have this information. Facius 10:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the "inconclusive" word and put in the facts, whether people see those as inconclusive or not is a personal matter. I have also corrected the matter of recoed to when he left the 3RPC. Where do people get these unsupported details ? I have also given a little backgound on the reasons for the fight against the FLN in Algiers. I have added a reference to General Massu's book where he talks of physical toture in 1971. Facius 08:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bigeard's shrimps[edit]

This phrase seems to be totally based on the quote from Paul Teitgen, is there any other evidence that this phrase was in common use or that Bigeard was in any way directly associated with the dropping of prisoners from helicopters? Mztourist (talk) 14:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Torture and "death flights", October 2021[edit]

User:ThaddeusStevens the disputed accusations you have inserted do not belong in the lede. As I cannot access the sources you have provided online please advise exactly what they say. The use of the phrase "Bigeard's crevettes" has been reported previously, but there are no reliable sources that Bigeard personally ordered or condoned torture and murder of prisoners, unlike Paul Aussaresses. Mztourist (talk) 15:46, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Involvement in torture and murder[edit]

Hey, User:Mztourist taking this to the Talk Page. I think Bigeard's involvement in torture, murder, and "death flights" during the Algerian conflict is pretty cut-and-dry, having been attested to in numerous reputable sources. Given that this is one of the main reasons for contemporary interest in Bigeard, it's more than worthy of mention.

From Darius Rejali's book Torture and Democracy (Princeton University Press): "Similarly, Colonel Bigeard claims that he was personally present for each interrogation, that very few and only FLN operatives were tortured, and that he always had "good results." Louisette Ighilahriz's recent account of her torture by Bigeard suggests he was not as discriminating as he affects."

From James D. Le Sueur's book Uncivil War: Intellectuals and Identity Politics During the Decolonization of Algeria (University of Nebraska Press): "He [Paul Aussaresses] added that the colonel in the film who oversaw the entire operation was Bigeard. Going even further, Aussaresses brags that the term “disappearing” was invented in Algeria and used systematically for the first time in order to get rid of suspected revolutionaries without a trace. Commenting on the subject of the disappeared, Aussaresses says to the camera: "Bigeard's shrimp! That's what we called them."

And from Marnia Lazreg's book Torture and the Twilight of Empire: From Algiers to Baghdad (Princeton University Press): "Summary executions completed the labor of torture. After a victim talked, intelligence officers often sent him for the corvée de bois (or “wood detail”) outside the building where torture took place and had him shot. Ostensibly, the corvée was ordered primarily because the victim’s body bore obvious marks of torture, although it happened according to the whim of the officer in charge. Summary executions took place in rural as well as urban environments. Algiers Harbor became notorious for the bodies of torture victims that were dumped at night, sometimes inside barrels. General Bigeard was known for this practice, which won his victims the derisive name crevettes Bigeard” (shrimp Bigeard)."

Seems like more than enough to justify what was added. --ThaddeusStevens (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2021 (UTC)ThaddeusStevens[reply]

If you look above on this page, I first raised the issue of "Bigeard's shrimps" back in 2013. As I said immediately above, Aussaresses was responsible for the torture and murder of prisoners. Bigeard has been tarred with Aussaresses' actions. Rejali's wording is carefully crafted in that it implies that Bigeard got "good results" from torture, when it can just be referring to interrogations that he participated in which did not involve torture, was he present when Ighilahriz was being tortured? Le Sueurs' quote just confirms what I said about Aussaresses. Lenzig's quote is just a rehash of the "Bigeard's crevettes" from Aussaresses, Bigeard wasn't even a general at the time. I don't think the sources you have given prove anything more than what is already on the page and certainly do not belong in the lede. Mztourist (talk) 16:05, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I saw your above comment on Bigeard's shrimp, User:Mztourist, but it is plainly incorrect: as you can see in the Aussaresses quote above, it was not just Paul Teitgen who mentioned "Bigeard's shrimp." Here you have multiple authoritative sources that mention Bigeard's involvement in torture; I think Lazreg's, sourced largely from a book by the French historian Pierre Vidal-Naquet, is the clearest of all. Whatever your criticisms of the sources (I think your criticisms of them are awfully nit-picking: Ighilahriz herself said that Bigeard was present when she was tortured), I think it is wrongheaded to just refuse to mention this in the lede, when it is by far the main reason why Bigeard attracts contemporary attention today. If you wish, we can "teach the controversy," and mention that Bigeard denied personal involvement in torture (unlike, say, Gen. Massu). But simply not mentioning it at all seems impossible to me; that there was a significant controversy over even burying him with honors because of the torture allegations shows how significant a part of his public life the controversy became. It is simply good historical practice. With respect. ThaddeusStevens (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how the "Bigeard's shrimp" phrase came about and nor do you. There is no reliable source that establishes where it came from, or that such flights even took place, but repetition has apparently convinced some authors and you that it conclusively proves that Bigeard was involved in the torture and murder of prisoners. Ighilahriz's account is just her word against Bigeards. As I have pointed out Lazreg is wrong that Bigeard was a general at the time and I don't regard a one sentence accusation as being in any way conclusive. All the preceding information in the Lazreg quote comes from Aussaresses. Bigeard is on the record as opposing handing over Larbi Ben M'hidi to Aussaresses because he knew what would happen to him. No torture is not "by far the main reason why Bigeard attracts contemporary attention today", the reason he still attracts attention is the multiple books about Dien Bien Phu. You mention the controversy about his funeral where the rumors of his involvement in torture [1] were taken at face value and the French government wanted to avoid any investigation of what actually occurred. I have separated the existing torture accusations into a separate section, obviously it warrants discussion, but unproven accusations don't justify inclusion in the lede. Mztourist (talk) 05:42, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly you disagree with the sources; whether it is "her word against Bigeard's" or your claim that it was not "conclusively" proved that Bigeard was involved in torture, you are intent on avoiding even mentioning the major controversy in the lede. What is wrong with "teaching the controversy" and writing that he was implicated in torture/death flights by several sources (most prominently Aussaresses and Ighilahriz) and denied it? I am happy to compromise, and do an extended discussion of the torture allegations in the article itself, but see no reason why the lede should not mention this major part of his later public life, along with some mention of his political life. As it stands the lede is unhelpful as a guide to the rest of the article, and unfortunately quite poorly written. ThaddeusStevens (talk) 13:40, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree to the inclusion of unproven accusations in the lede. The sources that you have provided are low quality rumors/heresay. There is already extensive detail of Ighilahriz's accusations, Bigeard's denial and Barnett Singer's debunking (which you omitted to mention) under the Torture allegations section. You say these allegations were a "major part of his later public life" without anything to support that. If they were then there would be extensive media coverage, but there just isn't. You are welcome to expand the Torture allegations section provided it is balanced, so you can't make statements like "He was a pioneer of the "death flights" method of corpse disposal" unless there are reliable sources supporting this. Mztourist (talk) 13:58, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have just reviewed my books on the Algerian War. Alistair Horne's A Savage War of Peace (1977) doesn't mention Bigeard being involved in torture, murder of prisoners and makes no mention of "Bigeard's shrimp." but also doesn't mention Aussaresses who was little known at that time. Aussaresses' book The Battle of the Casbah (2001) and Ted Morgan's My battle of Algiers (2005) also doesn't mention Bigeard being involved in torture, murder of prisoners and makes no mention of "Bigeard's shrimp." Mztourist (talk) 14:57, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Ighilahriz accusations and the major public controversy over them in the first years of the 2000s were indeed a major part of the last years of Bigeard's public life, and there is significant media coverage. A cursory search shows articles from BBC, France24, the New York Review of Books, Le Monde, and Libération - articles with titles like "Late general’s ashes spark row in France" and "French General Bigeard laid to rest after posthumous battle." Sadly none of this is mentioned in the article as is. I am going to edit the burial section to include the controversy (seems bizarre not to mention it), and after that I think it would be fitting to mention the torture controversy in the lede, while acknowledging that Bigeard denied the allegations and that they were never confirmed. Doing otherwise would simply be malpractice - just because the allegations are not confirmed does not mean that they were not a significant part of Bigeard's later public life, significant enough to delay his burial by two years. ThaddeusStevens (talk) 17:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added a section on the controversy surrounding his burial to the death section, and added a short second paragraph to the lede; I think you can agree that the second paragraph is more than fair, and reflects the fact that a significant amount of the article is spent discussing the torture accusations/allegations. If you wish to "balance" it more I would not be opposed to spending more of the lede discussing his military career as well. Let me know your thoughts, User:Mztourist. ThaddeusStevens (talk) 18:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't revise the relevant sections while there is an ongoing talk page discussion as here, that is malpractice, please stop. You mention stories about his burial, which I don't believe qualify as "a major part of the last years of Bigeard's public life" given that he was dead and could no longer defend himself. Mztourist (talk) 05:01, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Bigeard, personally, was guilty of torture[edit]

User:Buckshot06 the accusations of torture against Bigeard are discussed at length in the Torture accusations section, so why do you feel the need to add an annotated Further reading with another unverified accusation: [2]? Mztourist (talk) 03:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This text?
"Bigeard gave France a victory in the Battle of Algiers in 1956. But he had to use torture to do it. Even though torture was used on an industrial scale by Bigeard and his fellow colonels, the guilt for what he had done was never quite pinned on him at the time."
Because in line with WP:RSAGE and WP:SCHOLARSHIP, it is not unverified. It is a peer-reviewed journal article, from a reputable journal, French Studies Bulletin, and an example of some of the latest scholarship on the subject, being published within the last two and a half years. Thus it meets and is among WP's highest standards for referencing - a peer-reviewed journal article, and very recent too.
I added it to the further reading because it directly bore on the last series of edits to the article, whether Bigeard was personally responsible for torture. Hogg writes that Bigeard was responsible for torture and highlights that by writing it into the article abstract.
I added the quote because, again, it directly related to the last series of edits to the article, and because I was focusing on military radar systems rather than breaches of the military code and laws of war. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But I have now merged it and the reference into the relevant section of the article. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who is Christopher Hogg? I am not familiar with him as a historian/academic. Have you read the article or just the quote? I am unable to access the article so cannot see on what basis he concludes that Bigeard used torture. Without that this just seems like yet more hearsay and innuendo along with the earlier torture accusations and "Bigeard's crevettes" discussed at length above. If you are "focusing on military radar systems rather than breaches of the military code and laws of war" why did you come to this page? Mztourist (talk) 09:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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