Talk:Marcelo Claure

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Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. Thank you. Adam.Sudo (talk) 19:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Controversies/Negative Facts

Hello, I would like to know what's wrong with my edits. I understand they represent negative publicity, but they are well-referenced. The words are originally not mine, but from the referenced. Please reach a consensus regarding this matter. Centrereded (talk) 09:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Centrereded, a consensus would follow a talk-page discussion in which you explain why you think your addition is justified. But you've made no attempt to start such a discussion. I see that 108.30.14.148, Adam.Sudo and Melcous have all removed the material you added, giving reasons in your their edit summaries, so I suspect a consensus would go against you. Maproom (talk) 14:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I was a bit late. I started this after they reverted. So, I believe my edits are acceptable because they speak the truth and are supported by good references, including some top publications. Majority of my edits are in neutral tone and referenced accordingly. If the problem is negativity, then I will work on the tone again using the same references. Let me know what could be done, as I believe the edits are not an attack, but just pure facts. Thank you.@Adam.Sudo:, @Mlb96:, @SVTCobra:, @Slywriter:, @Timtrent:, @David notMD: Centrereded (talk) 10:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

This does not work for building consensus on anything. State what you believe should be changed and make a case for that change Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 11:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Timtrent: Marcelo Claure is a leading tech entrepreneur and key executive of multi-national conglomerate SoftBank, who is being the subject of extensive media reporting, especially in the US. My additions, which provide additional information about Claure's involvement in the companies and organisations - including some controversies, warrants a permanent inclusion on the following basis:

• A) The materials are carefully sourced and only use reliable sources.
• B) The additions were blindly reversed by a user with a possible COIN and was possibly hired by the subject to keep the Wikipedia clean of any slightly critical albeit factual information. For example, the entirety of my additions were removed even though it also included neutral information - which contributed to making the individual's page more complete and is the purpose of Wikipedia - about how Claure's venture Brightstar was acquired by CHS Electronics, another US company. Meanwhile, other subsequent acquisitions - which mention SoftBank - were not deleted and remain in place because they portray the individual in a positive light. Without my edits, this page a promotional page and going against the ethics of Wikipedia as a neutral encyclopedia.
• C) Each subsection from my additions provides additional information about Claure's tenure at each position and thereby adheres to Wikipedia's standards and purpose of providing information. I don't mind editors adjusting the language of the additions if that works better. Centrereded (talk) 17:27, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

  I will not repeat my message from Talk:Ottobock §Controversies/Negative Facts, except that I am politely not interested in this. I have no horse in this race. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 17:31, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Much shorter. Perhap rather than adding controversy content to each business section, have a separate, concise, controversy section. David notMD (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Problematic material re-added without gaining consensus

Centrereded has now re-added approximately half of his previous mass insertion [1], without obtaining specific consensus to do so, even though he has been instructed repeatedly by multiple editors at multiple venues not to reinsert without consensus.

Of the 16 citations Centrereded added to the article in this current edit,

8 citations do not mention Claure:

• http://web.archive.org/web/20050306074537/ [sic]
• https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB906610476400822000
• https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1998-09-24-9809240143-story.html
• https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article1955164.html
• https://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/30/politics/election-2016-jeb-bush-business/
• https://www.zdnet.com/article/telstra-slashes-brightstar-deal/
• https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/sdut-political-money-nightclub-owner-cash-wetsuit-2014jan27-story.html
• https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/28072485/Subscriber_Holdings,_LLC_v_Brightstar_Corp_et_a

This is pacermonitor.com citation is also original research, and does not substantiate the text added to the Wikipedia article.

1 citation is a press release:

• https://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/brightstar-acquires-majority-interest-in-consumer-electronics-distributor-wsa-mexico-520854

1 citation was misrepresented:

• Text added to Wikipedia: "The documents obtained by The Australian showed that Telstra was set to pay three times industry rates for phones."
• The cited article in The Australian says "The Australian published details of Telstra's handset sourcing contract with Brightstar, showing it would pay between two and three times industry rates for handsets in 2007"
• https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/technology/telstra-to-end-handset-supply-agreement-with-brightstar/news-story/48d917d2ebad0d67d1add8c1aaa3608e

In addition, one statement Centrereded added is uncited:

• In March 2006, under Claure's leadership, Brightstar was awarded a contract by Australian then-state-owned telecommunications company Telstra to be its exclusive mobile phone supplier.

Furthermore, Centrereded cherry-picked small negative snippets (and also editorialized by adding unsubstantiated negative words like "loophole" and "decried") from lengthy positive articles; e.g.:

• https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/technology/article31927326.html
• https://www.inc.com/magazine/20040301/closingthedeal.html

Adam.Sudo (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Rewording problematic material

Hey guys, I've been reading your discussions here and checking the edits made to the article. I wanted to chip in, give you guys my take on all of this, and mention the changes I'd like to make to the article if we reach a consensus.

First of all, I agree with your opinions that the edits made by Centrereded (talk · contribs) are not neutral, and frankly to me they feel like a personal attack on Marcelo Claure, it's as if these edits try to portrait the man in the worst way possible. Now, taking all of that into consideration, I still believe some of the information provided by him is very relevant to the article , and should be mentioned on it (particularly the embezzlement accusation). Obviously, I believe the sections that are actually worth it should be heavily rewritten and edited so that they become neutral and concise, which is what I did and I'd like you guy to give it a look and tell me your opinion.

Regarding Centrereded's text: I removed several paragraphs which I considered to be highly irrelevant to the article, I tried to condense the relevant information as much as possible, I added/removed several references, I tried to give it a neutral tone, and I also added a paragraph regarding a recent NYT' article mentioning Claure.

I agree with David notMD (talk · contribs)'s idea of having a separate and concise controversy section. The following is my proposed Controversies section:

Controversies

Claure was hired as head of business operations of the Bolivian Football Federation by Guido Loayza, the federation's newly appointed president. In 2010, Carlos Chávez, a former president of the Bolivian Football Federation, asserted that Claure and Loayza were responsible of embezzlement through the sale of tickets for Bolivia’s 1994 World Cup matches on the black market. These allegations led to an announcement by the Bolivian Football Federation in 2020 of an investigation regarding its management between 1993 and 1994.

After persuading Bell Canada to acquire a larger amount of phones than necessary, Claure and his business partner David Peterson made profit by reselling Bell Canada's Motorola surplus in the United States. This was possible thanks to the higher prices charged by Motorola in the U.S. than in Canada.

Under Claure's leadership, Brightstar was granted a contract by Telstra, an Australian then-state-owned telecommunications company, with the intent of becoming its exclusive mobile phone supplier. The contract was awarded by then CEO of Telstra and mentor of Claure, Sol Trujillo. According to The Australian, Telstra was set to pay between two and three times industry rates for phones. In 2015, Claure, acting as CEO of Sprint Corporation, hired a team of consultants led by Trujillo that was paid at a minimum US$25 million for advice regarding network quality improvement that was for the most part unused.

Since 2021, Claure and Softbank have been involved in a pay dispute, Claure stated that he was owed US$2 billion in compensation for his work regarding SoftBank's investments.

Please let me know what you think of it and what changes you'd make. Thanks, AtomsRavelAz talk 15:00, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Thanks AtomsRavelAz for tackling this. Here is my take on the new proposals above:

• First paragraph: The final citation does not mention Claure at all, so that sentence should be deleted. Also, the Kansas City Star citation should be re-added as one of the citations for the second sentence, particularly since it is in English.

• Second paragraph (Bell Canada): I don't see any controversy, so those two sentences should be moved to the Brightstar section of the article in the appropriate date position.

• Last paragraph: Since it is still 2021, the date is confusing and insufficiently precise, and should read something like "Since late 2021" or "Since November 2021" (the citation says "for weeks", which generally means not yet a month, and it was published on December 3). Also, the citation doesn't say Claure has said anything on the record or even off the record, so asserting he "stated" anything is incorrect. The NYT article is a bit hard to parse, but the only thing it seems to definitively say is that Claure "is seeking roughly $2 billion in compensation over the next several years, according to four people with knowledge of the discussions who were not authorized to speak publicly on pay issues." I'm not clear whether "over the next several years" means divided up into the next several years, but it seems to, so that phrasing should probably be kept.

I think it would be valuable to invite in participants who have endeavored elsewhere to respond to Centrereded's edits (from Teahouse, COIN, and affected articles and talkpages): Melcous, Dodger67, Cullen328, Bonadea, Maproom, David notMD, Slywriter, and Timtrent.

In addition to the discussion threads and information previously posted above on this page, I invite them to also view these additional discussions about Centrereded's contributions:

• COIN
• Teahouse 1
• Teahouse 2
• Talk:Ottobock
• User talk:Cullen328

Adam.Sudo (talk) 13:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Adam.Sudo I have nothing to contribute to this discussion. My role was restricted to trying to get @Centrereded to contribute well to forming consensus. Whether they have or not is for others to judge. I declared my polite lack one interest somewhere up above. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 15:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Nothing to contribute, as my interest was just as a generalist (Teahouse Host), with no knowledge nor interested in the content. David notMD (talk) 15:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

My concerns were about the Neutral point of view and the need for consensus. I lack the interest or the time to delve deeply into the specific content issues. I am always concerned when a new editor has a deep focus on presenting living people in as negative a light as possible. Cullen328 (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Adam.Sudo: Great, it appears we are on the same page. I agree with all of your suggestions and will make the necessary changes to the proposed text. I want to wait a couple of days in case anyone else wants to intervene in this discussion. Once that time has passed, and if no one has objected to the changes, I'll edit the article and add the paragraphs per our discussion. Thank you guys, AtomsRavelAz talk 16:04, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

When a newbie editor is proving to be resistant to advice from peers who collectively have decades of experience involving thousands of articles, I tend to lose interest in assisting. I will however continue to endeavour to protect the integrity of the article(s) I have watchlisted. This is my only comment on this issue, please do not ping me again. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi AtomsRavelAz, thanks for making the changes and editing the article. Reviewing the sources more carefully, I now notice two things that should be changed:

• The citation for the Bell Canada/Motorola information (re: Brightstar) says that the phone re-selling program commenced almost immediately after Brightstar was launched ("The men set out with hopes of selling about $500,000 worth of merchandise in Brightstar’s first few months. Instead, they sold $14 million in three months, and Peterson credits Claure", and "'It took us one week to figure it out'"), and was for U.S. sales, so that was before the company opened offices throughout Latin America and the Caribbean.

• In terms of the NYT article on the pay dispute, it doesn't say he wants the pay for "his work regarding SoftBank's investments". It says (according to the insider sources) that he wants the pay "for various cleanup jobs, including straightening out SoftBank’s investment in WeWork .... [and also for] the future value he could bring to SoftBank."

Thanks again,

Adam.Sudo (talk) 15:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Adam.Sudo:

I'll make the changes regarding the Bell Canada/Motorola information, thanks for pointing it out.

Regarding the other thing, I wrote investment with the intent of being as concise as possible by using a word that could encompass all of those activities. Investment is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as "the act of investing money in something", by the Cambridge Dictionary as "the act of putting money, effort, time, etc. into something to make a profit or get an advantage, or the money, effort, time, etc.", and by Dictionary.com as "the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value." and "a devoting, using, or giving of time, talent, emotional energy, etc., as for a purpose or to achieve something". I found all of those definitions to be quite fitting to the situation, but if you'd like to we can edit the article and go into more detail.

Thanks AtomsRavelAz talk 15:54, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Adding Controversies section

I had proposed this before and we had reached a consensus regarding this matter, but it was made apparent to me that the proper procedure to follow on this instance was through the utilization of this template, I apologize for not doing it before.

Like I proposed above in the other discussion, I would like to include a Controversies section to Claure's article. I wrote what I believe to be a concise and neutral take on some of the Claure's most relevant controversies, taking into consideration the suggestions made by other users.

This is the proposed section:

Controversies

Claure was hired as head of business operations of the Bolivian Football Federation by Guido Loayza, the federation's newly appointed president. In 2010, Carlos Chávez, a former president of the Bolivian Football Federation, asserted that Claure and Loayza were responsible of embezzlement through the sale of tickets for Bolivia’s 1994 World Cup matches on the black market.

Under Claure's leadership, Brightstar was granted a contract by Telstra, an Australian then-state-owned telecommunications company, with the intent of becoming its exclusive mobile phone supplier. The contract was awarded by then CEO of Telstra and mentor of Claure, Sol Trujillo. According to The Australian, Telstra was set to pay between two and three times industry rates for phones. In 2015, Claure, acting as CEO of Sprint Corporation, hired a team of consultants led by Trujillo that was paid at a minimum US$25 million for advice regarding network quality improvement that was for the most part unused.

Since late 2021, Claure and Softbank have been involved in a pay dispute. According to four people with knowledge of the discussions who were not authorized to speak publicly on the issue, Claure is seeking US$2 billion in compensation over the next several years for his work regarding SoftBank's investments.

Thanks, AtomsRavelAz talk 19:15, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done:

AtomsRavelAz, it is not credible that Marcelo Claure would hire you to put negative information into the Wikipedia article about him. Particularly not when your proposed draft contained two negative misstatements [2] [3] in addition to information plus a citation that did not mention Claure [4], and you declined to correct one of the negative misstatements [5].

Please carefully re-read WP:Paid-contribution disclosure, specifically the following (which details what you must accurately and specifically disclose):

Editors must disclose their employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any paid contribution to Wikipedia.

• Employer: the person or organization that pays, either directly or through intermediaries, a user to contribute to Wikipedia. This includes cases where the employer has hired the user as an employee, has engaged the user under a freelance contract, is compensating the user without a contract, or is compensating the user through the user's employment by another organization.
• Client: the person or organization on whose behalf the edits are made; the client is often the subject of the article.
• Affiliation: other connections that might be relevant, including, but not limited to, people or businesses who provide text, images, or other media for the paid edit. If a paid editor is working as a contractor, "affiliation" would include any broker involved in the transaction (e.g. Fiverr, Upwork, etc).

Please also read the explanatory paragraph at the bottom of that section.

Then please read WP:Paid-contribution disclosure#Disclosing external accounts on Wikipedia, which states:

Paid editors must provide links on their Wikipedia user page to all active accounts at websites where they advertise, solicit or obtain paid Wikipedia-editing services. If such an account is deleted or removed, any corresponding links on the Wikipedia user page must remain visible for at least one week.

Also note the following Wikipedia policy: WP:Paid-contribution disclosure#Disclosures to clients:

Paid editors must provide links to the user page(s) of their Wikipedia account(s) on each website on which they advertise, solicit or obtain paid editing services, as well as in direct communications with each client and potential client (such as through email). If the paid editor has used or controlled more than one Wikipedia account, each account must be disclosed.

Adam.Sudo (talk) 17:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Adam.Sudo: Marcelo Claure has not hired me, that information is incorrect and was not added by me to this talk section, that information was wrongfully added by user Marti Siurana (talk · contribs), you can check the Talk section's history to corroborate this. The proper information regarding this conflict of interest can be found on my User Page, and it has been there eversince I made this request, you can check the timestamps to corroborate that. As it states there, I was hired by Sarah Cohen, not by Marcelo Claure.

Furthermore, I have not declined to correct anything, I have consistently worked alongside you always taking into consideration your suggestions. After both of us reached a consensus regarding what would be added to the article, I even left a message on your talk page to make sure you were happy with the changes I had made, you suggested I change the order of the text, which I did, afterwards you mentioned you were not happy with some of the text's wording to which I replied with my reasoning behind the usage of those words, comment which thus far has been left ignored by you.

So, if I made any mistake, I apologize. It has never been my intent to act against what has been agreed, and all of the messages I've left here and in your talk page can attest to that. AtomsRavelAz talk 22:57, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

AtomsRavelAz, you need to comply with the COI disclosure requirements noted in the links and quotes I posted above. You need to disclose somewhere (such as on the top of this page) what firm Sarah Cohen works for, and also what client entity (person or organization) she hired you on behalf of to make these edits. You need to also disclose somewhere any broker in the transaction, such as Upwork, which was noted in the recent COIN report about you here [6].

As noted in the policies quoted above, you also need to provide on your userpage a link to your Upwork account, and any other accounts at websites where you advertise, solicit or obtain paid Wikipedia-editing services.

Please also correct the negative misstatement in your draft [7] which you previously declined to correct (you did not refuse, but you did decline) [8].

Adam.Sudo (talk) 15:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Request declined. Requesting editor has retired from Wikipedia, and has requested a decline of his requested edit here: [9]. This seems to be a situation where multiple editors were successively employed/paid to post negative material about this article subject onto Wikipedia; see various threads and links above. Also note that per Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure,

Paid editors who cannot disclose their employer, client, and affiliations are prohibited from editing. Non-disclosure agreements do not invalidate this requirement. There is no confidentiality for the employer, client, or affiliations.

Adam.Sudo (talk) 02:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)