Talk:Mark Essex

Number of victims

These victim tallies are inconsistent. The lead paragraph says Essex killed 10 and wounded 13 others. At the end of the article, he is said to have "shot" 19 people total. ChrisWinter 15:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• A total of 19 people have been shot at the hotel, of whom seven died, but Essex already shot three, killed two, on January 1, bringing his total toll to 9 dead, 13 injured. Many sources though say he killed ten people, but so far I have only seen 9 confirmed, so I presume the other number is either wrong, or just includes Essex himself. Accordingly I will now change the number in the introductiory part.(Lord Gøn (talk) 14:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC))

2 more shooters?

I saw a thing on youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=uiU0Tc0EIwU that says the same location, hotel in new orleans, and same date, january 73, yet it says there are 3 black snipers, and the name it mentions is robert essex, possibly mark essex's brother. What's the deal with this? Does anyone know if the video is true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heatsketch (talk • contribs) 19:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The video is not true and a third sniper was not killed the following day. Mark James Robert Essex was the snipers full name and he is believed to be the only sniper. Some witnesses claim to have seen another gunman who did not fit Essex’s description running through the hotel. Police in the stairwell next to the cubicle Essex was hiding in claim to have heard two different voices on the roof and two different calibers of rifles being fired despite Essex being found with only one. Some reports claim that after Essex was shot and killed police still received gunshots from the roof and returned fire to a shadowy figure on the ledge. Ballistic test of bullets and shells recovered showed that only one weapon was used, the one Essex was carrying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.200.63 (talk) 02:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well you can clearly see three people moving on the roof very clearly in the video, which shows a gun battle on the rooftop of a 1970s Howards Johnson's. (How many of those could there be?) Were these police that were deployed on two tiers of the rooftop at some point?

You can view the time stamp on the version available on youtube (which I can't link here): 38:19.

70.127.15.182 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

If you search deeply enough, this sources from initial confusions. TKOA is a very fascinating documentary, with superlative archive footage. However, it recites inaccuracies here and there regarding some of the cases - often to accompany condensed imagery/footage (and the directors must have known this). Whitman killed a man in a barber chair; thirty-two teenage boys in the basement of Gacy's home etc. It is the same with this case. That insertion has no base in fact beyond speculation regarding conflicting reports in the immediate aftermath of Essex's death. Ballistics proved all those killed died by the Ruger found near Essex's body.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Cultural References

I added this small section. Gil Scott Heron seems to regard Essex as a hero, which is a somewhat extreme view IMHO.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 20:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

No he doesn't and you completely fail to understand Gil if thats the case. Fittingly (as its GSH) he tries to look into the reasons Mark Essex did what he did, years of racism. Gil by no means promotes what Essex did, he just thinks its important to understand where a man has come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.255.244 (talk) 23:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Other than the one line that is currently in the article, I don't think there is any other need to add info to explain the views of a racist mass murderer. Certainly, if his color was reversed it wouldn't even be considered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.245.173 (talk) 14:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Redirect Created

Since the subject is referred to as "Jimmy Essex" in "The Ultimate Sniper - An Advanced Training Manual for Military and Police Snipers" by Maj. John Plaster, I created the redirect. I don't think it conflicts with the existing article on James Essex as "Jimmy" wasn't a common nickname in the 1700's. Because the book that I am citing is pretty popular in public service, in legitimate sport shooting circles and among certain fringe elements, I figured the redirect would come in useful.FiReSTaRT (talk) 12:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

New Orleans Advocate article today

http://theadvocate.com/home/4828836-125/rampage-revisited

Cultural References

The Killing of America (1982) mentions the shooting at the hotel at length. But I don't know how to edit Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.157.152.183 (talk) 11:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

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"Racially motivated violence against European Americans"

The category is not valid and vague, especially since not all of Essex's victims were white, and "European-American" is a loose term given that it doesn't distinguish between recent immigrants or those with certain ancestry 2601:19B:100:AB50:0:0:0:D529 (talk) 03:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

To my mind this is almost wishful thinking, given his well documented lifestyle and activities from his Navy days onwards. Many authors and indeed advocates (plus his family) have stated his intents and purposes. Even contemporary news accounts and footage make it clear. If you read enough about the case, it is quite clear what his motives were. As for the shooting of Harrell, the 12.30.72 attack was carried out from afar, very late in the evening. One of many authors once wrote "Mark Essex's war on whites had claimed its first victim, but not the one he'd intended."--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

this doesn't address my point at all and so it still stands. the category is invalid 2601:19B:100:AB50:0:0:0:D529 (talk) 01:41, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Like I mentioned at the beginning of the month, all the literature illustrates Essex's life up to 12/31/72. This includes numerous individuals who had known him before and during his radicalization. You are more than welcome to either take the discussion to the Teahouse or try and devote similar passion to removing a similar category from, say, the 1999 London nail bombings article.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Fighting

@Cullen328:@Kieronoldham: Ya'll both look like you're fighting over whether or not Mark was a member of the Black Panther party, please talk it out here MayDay2099 (talk) 22:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

We are both just discussing different viewpoints (integrally and neutrally) for the benefit of the article. We both have valid viewpoints and concerns being brought back and forth. If it results in ultimate consensus it'll be brought here.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I am making a request for a reliable source that says that Essex was a member of the BPP, rather than a reader of their literature, a friend of another BPP member, or whatever. He was so notorious that it should be easy to provide evidence of his membership. The evidence we have of his personal ideology is incompatible with BPP ideology. The BPP made many errors but it was not an anti-white organization and frequently cooperated with predominantly white organizations. Cullen328 (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The books are reliable references. I linked a few on your talk page. I understand your concerns, but authors have stated as such. At the very least, it should be added as a note that according to some authors, he was a member. An equal counteract of some kind in the note would be apt? I am sure you could add with an equally reliable ref. something to contradict it, if so?--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

So far, not a single reliable source that I have seen states unambiguously that he was a member of Black Panther Party rather than a hanger-on. I would like to see what you believe to be the best direct quote on this specific point, Kieronoldham. Most of the sources you mentioned on my talk page come nowhere near close to that. Cullen328 (talk) 00:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think you may not want Essex to have been a member (or former member), given his actions at the end of his life. I linked a few unequivocal ones on your page. I fail to see how the sentence "a member of the Black Panther movement" can be misconstrued. It's linked. Another is here. Random web searches confirm it (and if the authors are incorrect then the fault lies with the authors and not Wiki. for using reputable sources for inclusion). Please don't take issue with myself for reading this info and seeing it, from several sources, as a reputable and worthy inclusion.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

That accusation is baloney, Kieronoldham. I have worked on biographies of BPP members who committed terrible crimes and other BPP members who went on to be productive citizens. In all of these cases, their party memberships were very well referenced. Being a member of a movement is not the same as being a member of a political party that had to approve membership. A passing mention in a book about ISIS ideology is not a reliable source for this assertion. Cullen328 (talk) 00:26, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The references are reputable. I've listed at least four on your page and here. The Cawthorne book has an entire section devoted to him. Thx.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Source analysis regarding the claim of Black Panther Party membership

Let's take a look at reliable book sources that devote significant coverage to Essex's associations with the Black Panther Party:

The book Black Rage in New Orleans published by an academic press, Louisiana State University Press, says After leaving San Diego, Essex spent the next three months in New York City, where he got loosely involved in the local Black Panther Party. "Loosely involved" is not a synonym for Black Panther Party membership. The Black Panther Party demanded total commitment to the party before granting membership.

The book Hunting Humans: The Rise Of The Modern Multiple Murderer published by the venerable Canadian company McClelland & Stewart, quotes an FBI report as saying that Essex associated with and received black militant literature from a member of the Black Panther Party. There is no mention of Black Panther Party membership, and if he had been an actual member, the FBI would certainly have said it, since the FBI and the Black Panther Party were literally at war at that time .

The book New Orleans Disasters: Firsthand Accounts of Crescent City Tragedy, published by The History Press, discusses Essex's associates before the killings, saying One of those companions was New Orlinean Rodney Frank, a radical with ties to the Black Panther Party. If Essex had gone on to join the Black Panther Party, the author certainly would have said so.

The book called The Management of Police Tactical Units, published by Charles C Thomas, Publisher, Limited, which has specialized in books about criminology and policing since 1927, says Essex became excited about joining the Black Panther Party while he was in the Navy. The book does not say that Essex ever actually joined the Black Panther Party, which they certainly would have noted if it was true.

The book The Copycat Effect: How the Media and Popular Culture Trigger the Mayhem in Tomorrow's Headlines, published by Pocket Books, which goes back to 1939, says Then he went to New York City's Harlem and aligned himself with Eldridge Cleaver's faction of the Black Panther Party. Aligning with a faction does not mean that he joined the party, since the party leadership had already ousted the Cleaver faction by then. That book says that Essex was more aligned with the Black Liberation Army than the Black Panther Party after he investigated these movements.

These are all serious authors from a variety of backgrounds and orientations, whose work is issued by solid publishers and none of them says that Essex actually joined the Black Panther Party, when it would have been easy and logical and predictable for them to have said so if it was true. It was not an easy or trivial matter to join the Black Panther Party in those days. An applicant had to undergo an ideological review and vetting, and all the evidence indicates that Essex's ideology was incompatible with that of the leadership of the Black Panther Party at that time. The bottom line is that Essex was certainly interested in the Black Panther Party, that he read and accumulated Black Panther Party literature, and that he had friendships with Black Panther Party members and supporters. But there is no good evidence in high quality sources that he was ever a formal member of the BPP, and his final acts prove that he rejected BPP ideology, which never advocated for the mass murder of white people. Cullen328 (talk) 05:30, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I invite comments from Kieronoldham and MayDay2099. Cullen328 (talk) 05:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Everything I know and feel about Mark is extremely opinionated, and has nothing to do with whether or not he was a Black Panther member so I don't feel I should participate. MayDay2099 (talk) 16:34, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Have given links stating otherwise. Others mention so, and not just alluding or brief in some instances. And "his contacts" with the New York BPP and "association with" them in others can also hardly have waned his radicalization. He evidently did not dissociate from them.

I am just trying to be neutral and objective, given what I have read. Some sources state so. What I think would be a good compromise would be to add a single note somewhere in the article stating "according to some sources/authors" Essex was a member of the BPP, or suchlike. The note could add an objective refute of this claim from other sources.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Kieronoldham, I have provided five direct quotations from five books. Please furnish a few direct quotations saying that he was a member, abd tell us about the books and their publishers. Thank you. Cullen328 (talk) 17:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

They're on your page, further up in this article talk page (and are/were in the ref. links on the article - at least one of which you reverted). Another would be Countering Terrorism by Martha Crenshaw and ‎Gary LaFrei ISBN 978-0-815-72765-1 P. 45 which includes: "The shooting began when Essex, a member of the Black Panthers movement, broke into the hotel and killed Robert and Elizabeth Steagall." The Encyclopedia of Mass Murder ISBN 0-747-20897-2 p. 99 emphasizes that "in August 1972, Essex left Emporia and traveled to New Orleans, where he became involved with various black militant groups. It was during this period that her received further training in urban guerilla warfare and started collecting a wide variety of firearms..."

I suspect you'll brush this aside with a quote they "don't go into sufficient depth" or mention the BPP by name etc. See, people who read this article may have read elsewhere on the internet etc. that he was a member; what I'm proposing would be an ideal, balanced counteract.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:52, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of 1967 Black Panther Party photo

I object to the inclusion of File:Black Panther demonstration.jpg. This photo was taken at a famous armed demonstration at the California State Capitol in Sacramento on May 2, 1967. Mark Essex was in high school in Kansas at this time. It was another year and a half until Essex joined the Navy, and subsequently went on a path toward radicalization. Here are my concerns. This demonstration had nothing to do with Essex and Essex had nothing to do with the demonstration. While in the Navy, Essex served in San Diego County which is over 500 miles south of Sacramento. No connection between Essex and Sacramento is mentioned in the article. Including this photo is part of a general trend by an editor of over-stating and over-emphasizing Essex's connections to the Black Panther Party. Although Essex read their literature and associated with party members, there is no solid, convincing evidence that Essex was a formal member of that party. In conclusion, this historic image is misleading and off-topic for this article. Cullen328 (talk) 04:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

We could maybe include the image and use a caption to the effect of: "The Black Panthers at a manifestation at the California State Capitol in Sacramento in 1967. Essex became affiliated with this Black Power political organization in 1970, shortly after his discharge from the Navy." Although he might not have been a member and the overwhelming majority of BPP members would almost certainly disapprove of Essex's terrorism, I don't think it's a stretch to say that his actions were influenced, at least in part, by the Black Power (not sure if my capitalization is correct) ideology propagated by the BPP.

Even though Essex wasn't linked to the manifestation, I don't think that illustrating images in an article have to be an exact representation of the topic; they are more meant to give an overall picture, and I think that mentioning the late-'70s—early '80s Black Power movement in some way is topical. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.--Kzkzb (talk) 07:54, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Kzkzb, the problem with your argument is that there were many organizations and individual activists who advocated for Black Power in those days, as shown by the fact that our article Black power barely mentions the Black Panther Party. Black Power originated with Richard Wright, later Malcolm X, the SNCC and the US Organization, which despised and violently attacked the Black Panther Party. A bit later, it was associated with groups like the Republic of New Afrika, the Black Liberation Army and the Black Guerrilla Family. Also, the word "manifestation " is not used in American English for this type of event.Cullen328 (talk) 08:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

the problem with your argument is that there were many organizations and individual activists who advocated for Black Power in those days

Sure, but out of all Black Power-related movements, the BPP seems to be the one that has influenced him the most. I might need to do some research on this.

Also, the word "manifestation " is not used in American English for this type of event.

You're right, I didn't copy edit hard enough, blame my bilingualism. --Kzkzb (talk) 08:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)