Talk:Markook (bread)

Foto

This foto be better foto it show Markook cook and be neutral and non-pov unlike other close-up foto of Markook loaf on white sheet[1]. It should be replace non-neutral POV photo. Agree? --Ani medjool (talk) 23:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

No. File:Markouk from Jerusalem Israel.png is a much clearer picture than File:Markouk - Bread on Saje.jpg. And they're both neutral and NPOV. If you insist on including the less clear picture, add it to the article, but don't remove the other picture. If you keep up this disruptive behavior, I'll report you on the appropriate noticeboard. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I have added the photo introduced by Ani Medjool to the gallery, as well as added "expansion needed" and "unreferenced" tags to the article. While it is unusual to have a gallery for such a short article, I think both photos are worthy of inclusion and help to enhance the article's potential by displaying a cooking process and finished product that is not common in Western cultures & cuisines. --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 01:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Merge?

There are two articles on the same bread, one titled as Saj (bread) and one titled Markouk. Although my personal experience with the bread has been with the "Markouk" name, I realize that name may not prevail throughout the rest of the Middle East. A quick Google.com search seemed to provide a similar number of hits for each name, albeit most of them were recipes & blogs and not articles. Perhaps some suggestions from other editors would be of help here. --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 07:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually (And this might only apply to Syria), Saj is the bread that is made on the iron (?) spherical-shaped oven where the fire is lit underneath, while marqouk is made with a more traditional hollow oven made from Adobe. Yazan (talk) 07:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I vote no per user Zozo2kx. I question neutral of editor that propose merge. Request unaffiliate, non-bias, neutral editor review this request here. --Ani medjool (talk) 21:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Ani medjool, there is no reason to attack nsaum75's integrity. If you continue to attack editors who are Israeli or Jewish, you will be blocked. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I tried finding an RS for the difference between Saj and Markook vis-a-vis their preparation and popularity, but I can't seem to find anything that'll pass (The lady where I used to by my Saj from in Kassab). If you do merge the articles, do note the two different names though. Oh and btw, while Markook is also used, the more popular name is Mashrouh. (Google search for Mashrouh, Markook, both in Arabic ofcourse) Yazan (talk) 08:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

So has a consensus been reached? Because something needs to be done, right? I went ahead and merged these articles, please feel free to update/fix/tinker. Just trying to help!--mikomango (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2010 (UTC)--mikomango (talk) 06:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. The name markook is recognized for what it is in certain areas of the Middle-East (such as among Palestinian Arabs living in Israel), but the other name, Saj bread, is unleavened bread made on an iron. I also oppose merging this article with Yufka, since it is peculiar to Turkey.Davidbena (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Yufka

Why has Yufka been merged with Markook? Just wondering if it indeed is the same bread. --92slim (talk) 13:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

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Markook and shrek: same or not? Oven or saj?

Both of them are the same shrek is what Jordan call it while Markook is what Lebanon and Syria call it so having them both doesn't make sense it should either be called Markook or shrek. And I think Markook is the more appropriate title because the name is not only known in Lebanon and Syria but also in the countries of the Arabian peninsula. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalal 1999 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

"Markook bread, also known as... shrak...". This is in the lead, at the most prominent place, where the definition of the article's subject stands. And it's totally contested and undersourced.

We have three issues:

• One editor claims that evidence is needed "that tabun/tannur bread can be called markook."
• The "saj bread" article claims the exact opposite, that "In Palestine, the saj bread is simply called shrāke, differing from the markook, which is baked in a clay oven (tannur)." There is also a source quoted there.
• A "better source needed" tag is rightfully placed behind the claim on this, "Markook (bread)", article (and one might be also needed next to the "saj bread" page claim).

I came looking for this exact information. And I left w/o an answer, more confused that when I arrived here in the first place. That's the worst conclusion one can draw under the bottom line. Arminden (talk) 15:39, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Davidbena and Macrakis: hi, I see you've been the maîtres d'affaire here in this regard. Any suggestions? Maybe you know a fellow editor who's a native Arabic-speaker from the region? I would also throw in the laffa, which I'm not sure is correctly defined in the first place ("a large, thin flatbread in Israeli cuisine, of Iraqi origin...cooked in an oven"): isn't it also cooked on the saj? The question of whether defining the laffa strictly as part of "Israeli cuisine, of Iraqi origin" isn't at least too narrow and at worst a plain distortion, I will place on that talk-page, to keep things apart. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 16:15, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that I am no expert on Arab breads, but when I have questions of this kind about Arabic words and names, I usually consult an Arab professor here, in Israel, Dr. Ibrahim Bassal. Perhaps he is the person who is best able to answer your question about the difference between markook bread and shrak bread, and whether or not they are the same bread and only called by different names in different regions. His e-mail address is ibassal_5624@yahoo.com . Bear in mind that, sometimes, the manner of preparation of the bread does not affect its name, such that some breadstuffs can be made on a griddle, while others in a tannur, and, yet, still be called by the same name. I have seen this phenomenon with malawach.Davidbena (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

​David, thank you very much! It's a very useful contact. About the name & baking system: I am of course aware of that, but the "saj bread" article makes a very categorical claim to the opposite, which might or might not be true. That's what made me post the question. If that claim is wrong, it must be removed; if it's correct, the definitions must be adapted. Have a great day, Arminden (talk) 23:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Now I found Dr. Bassal's articles on academia.edu. Highly interesting! The Hebrew & Aramaic words still used in Galilee Arabic - I never knew about this aspect. Thanks again for pointing him out to me! Arminden (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the same name may be used for different foods, and different foods may have the same name. WP is organized by what things are, not what they are called. What's more, it isn't always completely clear if two foods are "the same". All I can suggest here is to use a variety of sources and report what they say, even if they disagree. Maybe a dish is called X in Iraq but Y in Egypt. Or maybe Q refers to one dish in Lebanon and a different dish in Libya.... --Macrakis (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

There you are! Spot on. That's the essence of the Levant & the Balkans in a few concise sentences. Arminden (talk) 21:53, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Merger with Yufka

• Oppose merger with Yufka for the reason that breads are known by different names in different regions, and there is no indication through sources, photos, etc. that will lead us to conclude that Yufka is the same as the Markook which, in some places, is baked in an oven. In fact, my experience with bread that is cooked on a domed-shaped iron (convex griddle) is that it is an unleavened bread called Saj-bread in Israel, which differs from the flatbread that is made to cling to the wall of an earthen oven, and called by Arabs here "markook." However, in Turkey, the Saç Ekmeği bread (yufka) is, indeed, similar to the markook saj bread made in Lebanon. The German ethnographer Gustaf Dalman (1855–1941) who visited Palestine in the early 20th-century made a diagram of the different breads made in Palestine, showing two separate types of bread for Saj bread and for Markook bread. Both are flatbreads, but one has a larger circumference (i.e. the Saj bread), while the other, the Markook, is smaller in circumference and a bit more thick. Davidbena (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, in that case, let's make sure that saj bread isn't given in the current article as a synonym for markook bread, and that it is in the same article as sac ekmeği. I don't really care what the name of that article is, though yufka seems sub-optimal, since it is ambiguous. --Macrakis (talk) 21:37, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I can agree to your proposal. I'll make the changes.Davidbena (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Davidbena: maybe saj bread is the best place for that? --Macrakis (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I do agree that there should be a separate article on "Saj bread," but currently on Wikipedia there is not a separate article by that name. "Saj (bread)" redirects to this article.Davidbena (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Davidbena: I have created the saj bread article and split off the relevant content. Obviously it will need some filling out. I have also made yufka into a disambiguation page, and corrected some redirects. --Macrakis (talk) 21:02, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Macrakis. I'll try to work on it more when I have the opportunity. By the way, I bought a convex griddle called "saj" from Beersheva some years back. I have yet to bake unleavened bread on it, but I've been observing several YouTube videos to see how it is done.Davidbena (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)