Talk:Marty Sampson

Untitled

Marty is a really talented song-writer, with his most recent "Deeper" a great anthem of prayer for more intimacy with the King of Kings, the Lord Jesus Christ!

I agree, but let's have a little more NPOV huh? 71.141.139.75 23:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be something about Martys New Solo Album...Let Love Rule. http://www.martysampson.net/

cleaned up. --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:25, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Deletion vote

I think the article has potential, but it is prone to POV. Also, it currently does not have much information. I think it might be best to redirect this page to List of Hillsong musicians. If more NPOV material can be mustered up, it could have its own article again. Marky1981 21:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's the text of my AfD vote: Hillsong has had several albums released. If the author can build up the discography for this entry and demonstrate that the subject has contributed significantly to the released albums, then it qualifies; otherwise, delete. I'm putting this here in order to hopefully prompt the article's creator to research the album issue, and create a Wikipedia-style discography section, if applicable. Akradecki 22:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marty Sampson

The result of this AfD discussion was keep but cleanup.  (aeropagitica)   (talk)  16:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikitools to help fix article

I'm using these tools to help fix this article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:47, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I've improved the article a little and believe it is now at Start class.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:25, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Evangelical innuendo

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marty_Sampson&oldid=prev&diff=921800264 There is nothing in the edit and it's clearly speculative and WP:NOTNEWS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:36, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

It's inappropriate innuendo. The line "Marty's absence [...] had become particularly noticeable among fans" is not meaningful in any way on its own (especially with only two blog entries as sources), unless you read it as gossip. There's nothing about a notable reason, impact to his career, impact to the band, etc., and there are no reliable non-speculative sources. It really doesn't have a place here until those issues are addressed. --Fru1tbat (talk) 14:56, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

With the recent craze around Sampson's heightened scepticism of Christianity, I believe it should be noted that Sampson didn't suddenly secede from Hillsong with the pronouncement of his doubt (as widely presumed). But rather he'd begun to withdraw from Hillsong productions years ago. I believe this is significant. I have included testimonies and articles that atest to his withdrawal from Hillsong. The edit I would like to make is: "By 2010, Marty's absence from Hillsong performances had become particularly noticeable among fans." As this edit has been reverted for not being important enough, can other editors please provide their opinion whether you believe Marty's withdrawal from Hillsong around 2010 is significant to his biography? Thanks. Cbowsie (talk) 22:16, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. @Cbowsie: are you going to discuss or just keep inserting your content? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I see. new comments go at the bottom. You'll see that other editors have discussed. @Killiondude: since you correctly moved Cbowsie's comment to the bottom, you see the discussion. Do you have an opinion about the content? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I think it's kind of trivial and not great on sourcing. It also isn't super relevant to his recently popularized questioning of faith. However, it's not something I feel particularly strong about keeping or removing. Killiondude (talk) 04:59, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation, Cbowsie. I still don't think, as worded, it should be included though. His absence/withdrawal itself could be notable, but the fact that some fans noticed it is definitely not. I italicized "could" because it's not clear to me that recent revelations about his change in belief are related to any change in his visibility with the band 9 years ago. Lots of things could have caused that - tiring of touring, desire to spend more time with family, etc. Unless we knew the reason for a fact because a knowledgeable source said something direct about it, it's speculation, and we shouldn't include it. The two sources you provided in your edit don't attest to anything with any authority - one even admits he's commenting on rumor, and posted an update at the bottom that contradicts even that speculation. The second actually does directly state that he wanted to spend more time with his family - nothing about his faith. --Fru1tbat (talk) 14:01, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Fru1tbat thanks for your comment. I agree with most of it. You are absolutely spot on that we don't know why Marty withdrew from the band, there are many possibilities. This is the very point I'm making, that despite his highly publicised professions of doubt recently, he receded from the band over 9 years ago. There is the presumption in Christian circles at the moment that "Marty's sudden lack of belief = Marty has suddenly quit Hillsong". This is incorrect. Therefore, all I'm wanting to do is help clarify that Marty has not suddenly quit Hillsong United, but in actual fact he has long been absent from Hillsong productions for nearly a decade. Perhaps my references could be better, but it's a simple observable fact that Marty has gone from being a leader to completely absent from all albums and major performances from 2010 onwards. The essence of Marty's fame and interest come from having a lead role in Hillsong and therefore I'm struggling to understand how his withdrawal from Hillsong isn't worth a mention in his biography, let alone being one of the most significant points in his entire career.

What about:

In 2010, after further withdrawing himself from Hillsong music, Marty recorded an album in the United States under the band name, The Red Bikes... Cbowsie (talk) 00:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The sources we have are still speculative.

We should only address the subject by given name if there is confusion (if you were talking about a parent, sibling or spouse).

In short, we do not know that he withdrew in 2010. We know that he worked on a side project that released an album that year. For all we know, this speculative withdrawal was to spend more time with the new band, or it could have been due to an extended illness—whether his own or that of a family member, or to study, or any one of a dozen other possible reasons. Without a firm statement from a reliable source we should not speculate. This borders on no original research territory.

Also, you've equated his statement that he was "losing his faith" that he has a "lack of belief". Again, that's the same original research that many Evangelicals have imposed on those words. Ceasing to believe what other Evangelicals do is not a lack of belief. You do realize that are more non-evangelical Christians on the planet than there are evangelicals. Until he makes a clear statement, do not assume and Wikipedia does not need to make any statements about it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Cbowsie, the main issue to me is just making sure we don't selectively include information in a way that suggests something to the reader that isn't factual or provable. We have two primary responsibilities here: no original research and neutral point of view. I have no real problem mentioning his change in activity with the band - it's certainly a relevant step in his career that he stopped writing and/or performing in the role that he became famous for. It's already there, though, in the first bio paragraph: his last credited work with Hillsong United was Aftermath, and after that, he pursued several solo/side projects while remaining at the church. All factual and balanced. As for his recent revelations about his faith, the last part of the bio covers that adequately. As it stands, the article appears to represent his career pretty accurately, with more or less sufficient citations. I don't think we can do anything about any presumption in Christian circles - the article doesn't appear to lead anyone down that path. --Fru1tbat (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz, Equally you equate "lack of belief" to mean "stopped believing" which I specifically ensured wasn't implied by the use of the former. Lack of belief doesn't mean 'no belief'. 'Lack' is relative in comparison to its former state which Sampson says is diminished. This isn't an evangelical term, lack of belief in something can apply in all aspects of life, secular and non-secular. Moreover, Sampson has explained what he has meant by "losing his faith" by stating he doesn't know if God exists, but he has never said he has lost his faith or stopped believing. I am not disputing his reasons for withdrawal possibly being personal. But it certainly wasn't due to his recent announcement aforementioned, which is why I think the page should make this clearer. Currently, the page lists the different pursuits with other bands, but doesn't actually state this coincided with withdrawing from Hillsong, and leaves one to speculate, 'did he do this as well as Hillsong?' 'did he only leave Hillsong while losing his faith?' 'is he even still a member?'. We know by simply looking at Hillsong productions that this isn't the case, as you have mentioned yourself.Cbowsie (talk) 02:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I make no claim about what the subject is thinking or what the terms mean. That would be WP:OR. The subject does not use the term "lack" but "loss".

Placing these observations in close proximity to the "loss of faith" statement implies leading. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)