Talk:Meijin (shogi)

Meijin Tournament

I suggest changing the name of this page to the "Meijin Tournament." Technically, this tournament is referred to as "Meijin Sen"(名人戦) in Japanese. Since "meijin" can be used in other non-shogi related contexts, maybe the tournament should get it's own page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

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Mejin players by class

@Ish ishwar: There are a couple of players (e.g., Hiroshi Kamiya, Hiroshi Kobayashi, etc.) linked to incorrect articles and at least one (Daisuke Suzuki) linked to what looks like a dab page. The ones linked incorrectly pages can be corrected by adding WP:DAB to the links. Do you think the dab should be "(shogi)" or "(shogi player)"? Also, not sure what to do with the "Daisuke Suzuki" link. The actual link would be Daisuke Suzuki (shogi player), but that's a red link. Red links are fine if you think that there is eventually going to be an article created. Personally, I think all JSA pros qualify for at least a stub simply by being awarded professional status, but there's really no specific notability guideline for shogi, and others might feel that there's not enough for WP:BIO. If we assume the most basic criterion for notability is becoming a professional, then I can look for offcial JSA annoucements such as this for both male and female professionals as the primary source for notability and then also look for supplementary newspaper articles like this and this as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:01, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, it was automatically generated from a list so the links could be incorrect. Well, anyone can fix them.

Thinking about it now, i kinda like xyz (shogi) over xyz (shogi player), probably because it's shorter, i guess. But, i must have seen something like <name> (xzy player) somewhere on wikipedia and followed that earlier. Well, you can choose whatever is best.

i cant say about notability. Basically, i just automatically made links for all names in case there should be an article. I dont have any problem with your estimation of pro = notable. Not totally sure, but it seems that the Japanese wikipedia thinks like you and gives maybe all players a page. The practical matter is making a stub for all is kind of a lot of work. Will it happen? (There hasnt been much shogi editor action over the past 10 years.) I had in mind a hierarchy of page creation: all A class folks should probably have pages (since they've been around & are obviously very strong), title holders should, folks with strategies named after them or known to have invented strategies should, record breakers (like youngest to challenge Meijin) maybe should, important (by whatever relevant criteria) historical players should. And then, the other players could be worried about. Maybe it's also convenient to make pages for players who have pages in other Japanese languages (e.g. ko:와타나베 아키라, de:Sōta Fujii, de:Toshiyuki Moriuchi, zh:里見香奈, th:มะนะโอะ คะงะวะ, th:เอะริโกะ ยะมะงุชิ, lt:Hirojukis Miura, lt:Tošijakis Kubo, zh:Накахара, Макото, etc..)

I think it's good to have info on the players because it's one thing the international shogi world is missing compared with the chess world: human connection with the game.

By the way, i didnt explain my rational for this list here. I wanted to show (i) the not very strong correlation of dan rank to Meijin class [well you have to judge this by eye], (ii) the size of the classes, and (iii) to simply provide a grouping of the players via this criterion since i dont think there's any convenient organization of this information in english [even the JSA website is not convenient for this]. However, i have a much larger table of player info that i'll put somewhere else, which will include this same information. So, in that sense, this list of players will be redundant. (I, of course, dont have problems with redundancy.) – ishwar  (speak) 03:56, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Just using "shogi" to disambiguate should be fine. Although there are a number of players who share the same last name, I can't think of any off-hand who have the same first and last names. The main concern in my opinion is distinguishing between shogi players and other Japanese individuals who have the same name who already have articles written about them. Of course, who get disambiguated depends on who is seen to be the primary topic, but disambiguating the shogi player seems the easiest thing to do if there is any conflict.

I believe WikiProject Chess considers all person awarded the IGM title to be notable a stand-alone article, so doing the same for everyone awarded pro 4-dan status by the JSA seems fine to me since that would be (at least in my opinion) equivalent to a shogi grandmaster. Of course, some players have more written about them than others, but a stub could be justified for anyone 4 dan. For female pros, anyone awarded 2-kyu could also have a stub written about them since that is the full professional status criterion set by the JSA. Female 3-kyus can should probably only have an article written if they can satisfy WP:BIO since they are techincally not considered full-professionals.

I think the list is a good idea. I have been thinking of something siilar for some time myseself, but more along the lines of list for "individual Meijin seasons". It's fine in this though as long as it's clear that it is the current Jun'isen rankings. The info would be fairly easy to source, and only require updating once or twice per year depending upon when it's done. The A class list isn't officially set until after the year's Meijin match. I do think, however, it might be better to list the names in their Jun'isen order since this actually can determine who gets promoted/demoted in the case of ties. For example, Inaba challenged Amahiko Sato for this year's Meijin title and lost. So, he would be listed as A Class #1. Your point about correlation between class and rank is well made, so maybe this can be clarified in the article by listing how a player's dan is affected when they are promoted a class. For example, anyone promoted to A Class is also promoted to 8 dan, but they are not demoted in rank if they drop to a lower class.

Articles written about players in other languages can be added to the "Languages" section in the left side bar once an English article is written. Perhaps {{ill}} can be used for players currently lacking an English article, so that the link will automatically be formatted when one is written. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:54, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, both (shogi) & pros = page make sense to me.

I think i see what you mean about the individual Meijin seasons. I dont know so much about these Jun'isen details, so, i think it's a good to include info on it. (And, i'll learn about myself, too.)

Yes, the dan–class relation can elaborated on. Relatedly, maybe it would be good to have info on rank promotion. A blogger (http://shogifan.com/2017/09/01/what-is-the-rank-system-dan-for-shogi/) recently posted about this in english but left out details. This info is for another page though – perhaps shogi player or professional shogi player.

You know more about these {{ill}} type of things, so whatever you think is best is fine with me. – ishwar  (speak) 18:46, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

The Jun'isen is basically described in Meijin (shogi)#Qualifying and can be elaborated as needed. One thing about this year is that Class A typically has 10 players with the #1 spot being whomever loses the Meijin match. This year, however, it has 11 because of Ryu-oh#29th Ryu-oh challenger controversy: Miura was in Class A when he was suspended so he had to forfeit the rest of his games, so he would've been demoted by record alone. However, since he was cleared of the charges and reinstated by the JSA, he was granted an exemption to remain in Class A in the #11 spot. If you look at this year's table, you'll see that each A Class player has an off day, which I think has never happened before. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

That section is somewhat vague about the competition. "compete against others within their class" doesn't mention a round robin. "perform well" can mean lots of things. "may be promoted" sounds like there's wiggle room. This all leaves the reader to wonder if there they are any strict procedures in this tournament at all.

Table looks good. I guess we should explain what the position means. I still dont really understand the significance of that. And, it's related to the vagueness of the Qualifying § mentioned in my preceding ¶. – ishwar  (speak) 15:37, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

"Position" might not be the best word, perhaps "seed" would be easier to understand. When determining promotion/deletion, the higher seed will always be selected in the case of ties. So, if two players have the same record and only one can be promoted, the higher seed will be the one promoted. Conversely, if two players have the same record and only one can be demoted, the higher seed will not be demoted. Only the winner of Class A is ultimately determined through a playoff to break any ties (for obvious reasons), but seeding matters here too. For example, if four players are tied like was the case in the 73rd league, then who plays who when in the playoff is determined by player seeds. Namekata was the highest seed of the 4, so he got a bye to the final game and only needed to win 1 game to become challenger, whereas the other players needed to win at least 2 or 3 games because they were lower seeds. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:17, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Free class

I think that consideration should be given to removing the table of "Free Class" players. Techincially, free class players are referred to as such because they cannot participate in the Mejin leagues; this is what makes them "free" so to speak. This does not preclude them from participating in other official tournaments, but does exclude them from the Meijin tournament as long as they are Free Class.

There are essentially different types of Free Class players as explained here, but basically a player can either declare themselves to be in the free class or end up there because of being demoted from Class C2. Those who end up as Free Class because of demotion are required to achieve certain results or face mandatory retirement, whereas those who declare that they want to Free Class are deciding for themselves that they do not want to participate in the Meijin league.

Those who declare tend to be established players who for whatever reason seem to feel that their best shogi is behind them so they feel its best to leave while still at a respectable level and not keep playing on and further dropping down in class, or younger Shoreikai 3d/former-Shorekai 3d players who see the free class as another way to become pro. They often have come close to winning the 3rd dan league multiple times, but just can't (couldn't) seem win it to become a 4 dan. They may also be approaching (or have already exceeded) the upper age limit for 3 dan players and feel this is their only option left. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

So, the reason is because these players arent in the league? And, you want to see only membership of players within the league?

I suppose. However, it is possible to categorize players in relation to the league in which one category is nonmembership in the league. And, the JSA does in fact do this on their website.

If you are concerned about misrepresentation of players' abilities, then that can, of course, be addressed by stating exactly what the free class is. Which includes demoted unvoluntary folks as well as nondemoted voluntary folks. However, i'm not exactly understanding the distinction you are making. Are you saying that the free class is actually two different classes, in which the demoted folks have to meet different requirements than the other nondemoted folks? (If not, then the end result of the category is the same with the exception that some free class members do not wish to ever be promoted to C2 and above.)

I actually want to see this info somewhere (for my own personal statistical curiosity), but it doesnt have to be in this article. It just seemed, well, relevant.

About your last point, i didnt think it was possible to be a free class member without having to 4dan first. So, if i understand: they are trying to get a higher dan by winning a title (or some other way that i dont know about). Can i request info about this be added to the article? I had no idea. Shows how much i know. Well, i've never tried to figure out all this arcanery until now... – ishwar  (speak) 07:47, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I see that it is 2 types of free class. If you declare, you are out permanently. – ishwar  (speak) 07:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm only suggesting removing that category of players from this simply because they are not eligible for league play. Listing them in another more general article about shogi players seems more appropriate to me. There are various "player types" in the Free Class, but they are all categorized essentially the same. Certain players end up there by choice and others because of poor performance. Those who declare who are Class B1 and below can never return to Meijin play, whereas those who were demoted from Class C2 can be repromoted if they achieve certain results. These players, however, are ineligible for Meijin play as long as they are in the Free Class.

As for Shoreikai players who choose to enter Free Class, they are usually players who have come close enough to winning the 3-dan league enough times, but just can't get over the hump. The usual way of becoming a pro is to win the 3-dan league outright, or finish in the top two. Those players are promoted to 4-dan and added to the following year's Class C2. However, finishing in third place gets you what is called a 次点 and getting two of these points gives you the option of choosing to become a pro by entering the Free Class. You are awarded the rank of 4-dan, but you are not entered into Class C2 and instead have to further qualify for promotion to C2, which you have to accomplish within 10 years or retire. The current Meijin Amahiko Sato finished 2nd in the 39th 3-dan league so he made pro, but actually could've turned pro two years earlier after the 35th 3-dan league because he had already had one point from the 34th 3-dan league. He decided not to do so for the reasons given he gives here. Sato Meijin was 16 when he got his two points so there was still quite some time until he reached the mandatory age for 3-dan players. Shingo Ito actually finished with the same record as Sato Meijin in the 39th 3-dan league, but missed out on promotion because he was seeded lower. He, however, had one point from a previous year's league, so when he obtained his 2nd point in the 40th 3-dan league, he opted to turn pro via the Free Class. He was 25 years old at that time and mandatory retirement from the Shoreikai was only a year away, so this was probably a wise choice on his part. He's currently in Class C2. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I see. That seems fine to me.

The perspective of the uninformed reader might be like this: they look at a player's page on the JSA website and see that a guy is フリークラス under 順位戦. Well, フリークラス isn't shown here. But, they see that 谷川浩司 is Ｂ級1組. Why is Ｂ級1組 here but フリークラス not here? Possible conclusion: hmm, i guess wikipedia is just wrong (like in other areas...)

That's essentially the issue. – ishwar  (speak) 18:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

That's an interesting and well-made point that I did not consider at all. Maybe then it might be a good idea to add a sentence or two describing each class. These could be added before each table with each class getting it own seperate level 3 subsection or combined together somehow in "Qualifying" with each class having its own paragraph. The tables could be then left as is in a seperate level 2 section. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

sounds good. – ishwar  (speak) 04:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Hiroshi Kobayashi disambiguation

There are two players named "Hiroshi Kobayashi" currently active as pros: (1) Hiroshi Kobayashi (小林裕士) in Class C1 and (2) Hiroshi Kobayashi (小林宏) in the Free Class. So, some way to diambiguate the two is going to have to be figured out because neither "(shogi)" nor "(shogi player)" will work for the two shogi pros with {{ill}} because of the existing article Hiroshi Kobayashi. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

i would just use their real name in japanese as the disambiguator. Otherwise, their birthday. But, real name seems better. – ishwar  (speak) 04:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow because each player's real name is Hiroshi Kobayashi. Are you suggesting using the way each name is written in Kanji? -- Marchjuly (talk) 09:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

yes, in kanji. (just meant if, for instance, you asked them to write their name on their homework in high school that's what they would write – not a transliteration used for a nonJapanese wiki. Of course, this only makes sense in the written lang, but as Japan is so literate, it's real enough i think.) – ishwar  (speak) 22:57, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I would use their birth year if that's available (e.g. "Hiroshi Kobayashi (shogi player, born X)" and "Hiroshi Kobayashi (shogi player, born Y)"). This is usually the standard naming format in cases like this (e.g. Rafinha (footballer, born 1985) and Rafinha (footballer, born February 1993)). Using kanji as the disambiguator will be absolutely useless unless you know Japanese kanji. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 00:01, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion Patar knight. That gives use Hiroshi Kobayashi ({{ill|Hiroshi Kobayashi (shogi player, born 1976)|lt=Hiroshi Kobayashi|ja|小林裕士}}) and Hiroshi Kobayashi ({{ill|Hiroshi Kobayashi (shogi player, born 1962)|lt=Hiroshi Kobayashi|ja|小林宏 (棋士)}}). -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:17, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not "absolutely useless" since it serves to disambiguate. The difference in the symbols are obviously different. I'm not so condescending to our readers. However, the birth date – although wordy – is fine: i'm just feeling argumentative in reaction to Patar knight's rude language. And, we probably won't encounter any players without known birth dates as I think the historical ones often have additions to their names like XYZ I or XYZ II and so on. – ishwar  (speak) 02:22, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

You missed the "unless you know Japanese kanji" part. The only people who would be helped by a kanji disambiguator would be people who are familiar with kanji and who already know the two players' names in kanji. This would probably be limited to the most passionate shogi fans. For everyone else, even moderately enthusiastic followers of shogi, the only thing they'll be able to know from the disambiguator is that they are two different people, which would be the case for any disambiguator. On the other hand, someone's age is something that more universally recognizable both inside the sport (e.g. "I'm talking about the younger Hiroshi Kobayashi) and outside (e.g. I was told about a young shogi pro named Hiroshi Kobayashi"). Other possibilities include a regional disambiguator such as (shogi player from X) or an organization name (shogi player from X team/league), which could be appropriate if those exist or are more recognizable in shogi. However, these are less fixed than a birthdate and could lead to more maintenance in the future. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 17:26, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Real-strength Meijin

While I think it's OK to mention this in the "History" section to show how the system changed from a hereditary one to the current one, but I don't think article should be following Japanese Wikipedia's example and categorizing players and "Real-strength Meijin" because that seems unnecessarily confusing and not really how they are commonly referred to except in certain specific cases. Amahiko Satō is simply referred to as "Meijin" or if you want to be more specific "the 75th Meijin", but I don't think I've ever seen him referred to as the "13th Real-strength Meijin" in either Japanese or English reliable sources (Japanese Wikipedia is not a reliable source per WP:WPNOTRS). I don't think he (or the others) should be categorized as such in this article; even though that information is true per se because it's not really encyclopedically necessary per WP:NOTEVERYTHING even if it can be properly sourced. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:44, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Mean dan rank

@Ish ishwar: I'm not sure how you went about calculating the mean dan rank, but I recently updated the player lists which probably means that the "mean" also needs to be updated. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I just copy&paste them into a spreadsheet. I just did for my curiosity. – ishwar  (speak) 17:59, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure if they came from some source or something. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)