Talk:Michael Cherney

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list of additional sources[edit]

  • Wikileaks - US diplomatic cable 05SOFIA1207 from Sofia: James W. Pardew, Ambassador to the United States in Bulgaria at the time, mentions Mr. Cherney in a cable[1] briefing the department of Homeland Security on organized crime in Bulgaria.
  • Wikileaks - US diplomatic cable 09MADRID869 from Madrid: "15. (C) Madrid in recent months also has sought the arrest of Michael Cherney, a Russian-born, Israeli citizen for whom Spain’s National Court has issued an international arrest warrant that accuses him of money laundering and illicit association in connection with Op Avispa. Cherney (aka Mikhail Chernoy) reportedly owns several companies in Spain that the Avispa defendants used to help launder money. Center-right El Mundo on July 6, 2009 published a highly detailed account of the GOS’s fruitless efforts to have British authorities arrest Cherney during a visit to London in late May. Post’s LEGAT Section confirms the basis of the article. CHACON" --spitzl (talk) 02:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dossier about Chernoy that combines numerous sources.--spitzl (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ | Bulgarian Organized Crime C-CN5-00054Wikileaks created 7 July 2005, released 7 December 2010

PR complaints[edit]

NPOV/ Removal of negative references[edit]

Any negative (and well-sourced) remarks are being constantly removed from the page by various users. Not really in line with wikipedia ethics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D066c4 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an outrageous PR piece

Quite simply, this a ridiculous entry on Michael Cherney. There are many academics working in the field of Russian organised crime (eg Prof Louise Shelley, George Mason Uni, VA) who have in fact gone on the record in court and testified to Cherney's naughty activities. He is definitely no saint. Anyway, his alleged criminal past is beside the point, this article is not an accurate or balanced account of Mr Cherney - as identified by numerous people - but rather a PR piece. It should be deleted.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by D066c4 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The information contained within this profile is very informative. As an academic working in the field of Russian Organised Crime I would say from my knowledge that the information contained within is accurate.

Does anyone else have any comments on the content of Cherney?

"academic working in the field of Russian Organised Crime" - Please show us any factual evidence of Michael Cherney being involved in organized crime. Anyone can file false police charges. Has any court convicted Cherney of "organized crime" offenses? From my research, not one court has ever found Cherney guilty of any crime. Mhltv 18:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE this beginner's PR entry You have to be kidding me. As an academic you find this page informative when it is lacking sources and the majority of links lead to a politically motivated (and probably Cherney supported) “Cherney Hurray” chorus? This reads more like some wannabe PR article than anything else--as it stands it might as well be deleted since it doesn’t meet any Wiki standards.divinus divinum divinat 15:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

 Fixed I think this issue has been resolved by now.--spitzl (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the article has the style of an authorized biography[edit]

the aluminium market in russia was the most violent branche in russias economy in the nineties. the article only says that "people were envious" and so on. but that's pretty much oversimplificating things and it hurts during reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.192.118.121 (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed

BLP[edit]

the nature of this article is such that every substantial assertion must be individually sourced, instead of relying on the general articles listed at the bottom. Otherwise the appropriate course of action is to stubbify the article, or those parts of it which cannot be sourced. The reader should not have to search for the information in the general references. DGG 03:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am adding a warning to that effect on the article page. This is one of several issues with this article. It should be much better than it is. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 04:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I add that this article looks like an edited (sanitised) version of another I found here: http://www.russianpresscenter.com/profile_chernoy.pdf --Palecitrus (talk) 12:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed

clean up[edit]

I removed the linkless tag as several pages link here, I did a bunch of wiki links in the text, set up a reference section, and built the first reference tag using the format <ref>{{ cite web | url=##### |title=####}} </ref> I am not an expert in the field so just got started formating stuff. I am not watching this page I just stumbled across it. Edit away and have a good day. Jeepday 00:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV dispute[edit]

I feel that the lead of this article paints Cherney as an innocent philanthropist, when in fact an arrest warrant has been issued and he is wanted by Interpol. I won't insert the information into the lead as Moscowrussia has expressed a clear intention to remove anything to do with Interpol that is inserted there. Therefore, I am moving the discussion to the talk page. Arctic Night 13:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also support the same position, the FBI has an arrest warrant out on him. Off2riorob (talk) 14:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and restored the lead. I also removed information that was only sourced by Intelligence_Summit.org, an organization that is mainly funded by Cherney. --spitzl (talk) 15:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just cleaned up the article (again). The following users seem to continuously delete sourced and add unsourced information.--spitzl (talk) 19:21, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These are:

User:Moscowrussia has once again removed the following paragraph from the article 

He is currently wanted for questioning by Interpol on a Spanish warrant for organized crime and money-laundering charges.[1]

despite the fact that according to the Interpol website Mr Cherney is still wanted. I have now filed a dispute resolution request. Hope this helps to solve the problem. --spitzl (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

I reverted two edits by Moscowrussia. The first was a straight copy from the source, which is an impermissble copyright violation. The second was a report on a conversation in Israel. Putting aside that the addition was poorly worded, there was nothing to make the conversation notable to warrant inclusion. I reverted the first and the second edits. Moscowrussia reverted my first reversion (labeling it "vandalism" - I left a warning on his Talk page about the use of the word "vandalism"). I have restored the article to before both edits. Not sure how long that will stick.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moscowrussia re-added the material and I have reverted it again, for somewhat different reasons. One assertion was sourced to Izrus, a Russian-language web site which has been criticized in the Israeli press for being an "attack" site controlled by Avigdor Lieberman. The other assertion was from PR Newswire, a press release site. Neither of these would seem to be a reliable source for tendentious assertions about living peolle. I will be posting something on the reliable source noticeboard in a few minutes to get a second opinion and more eyes on this.Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PRNewswire is a reliable source which is used by thousands of news media on a daily basis since 1954. Please note PRNewswire Wiki article. Izrus is a news site based in Israel which has been granted credentials by the Israel Government Press Office. That these two sources and content to Michael Cherney's article were deleted constitutes vandalism. I have posted on the reliable source noticeboardseeking objective assistance. moscowrussia —Preceding undated comment added 16:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC).[reply]
I answered you on the WP:RSN noticeboard--lets take it there for now so as not to duplicate effort. Government credentialling by the way dsoes not guarantee reliability--there are organizations whioh have White House press credentials not considered relaible here.Jonathanwallace (talk) 17:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Full Protection[edit]

Edit-warring is not permitted. In order to prevent further edit-warring, I have full protected the page for 2 weeks.

If the dispute is resolved before 23 March, please request unprotection either at my talk page or at WP:RFUP. When doing so, please link discussions which demonstrate a consensus for a resolution.

If edit-warring resumes when protection is lifted or expired, editors will not be able to rely on the 3-revert-rule as a defense.

It would be helpful if interested editors could add links here to all relevant on-going discussions which currently appear to be spread across multiple venues.

CIreland (talk) 02:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


In addition the brief discussion re sources immediately preceding this entry, I am aware of
one discussions at WP:EAR, see here;
two discussions at WP:RSN -
one here re PRN Newswire, and
a followup here on Hebrew and Russian language sources.
We also have this SSI investigation re User:Moscowrussia, who appears to be trying to evade his block for edit warring. I *think* that's all of them. JohnInDC (talk) 03:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There was also apparently an earlier EAR discussion, of which I had been unaware, now arhived here. JohnInDC (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Wanted: CHERNEY, Michael Interpol, (14. October 2010)

WikiLeaks material[edit]

I'm concerned that we are citing to WikiLeaks material for negative assertions about Cherney. These are primary sources and shouldn't be cited in this manner for a BLP. I'm going to remove them but am opening this up to discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are a significant number of Wikipedia pages on the Wikileaks cables, including quotations from the cable on organized crime’s involvement in Bulgarian football. Cables released by Wikileaks have been published by some of the world’s leading newspapers and the Bulgarian football cable was also published by the Sofia News Agency [1] so I think we can include a mention on this page.
So that it is clear, I suggest the page is updated to include a “Wikleaks: US diplomatic cables” section. Enlighten10 15:16, 01 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Context is everything, and each requires its own evaluation. In addition, even assuming another article uses a Wikileaks cable in the same way you are, that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct - only that it hasn't been challenged. I may open up this topic for discussion on BLPN because I think it's wrong to include this information here. Putting everything in its own section doesn't elmiminate the problem, although it makes it easier to deal with. I'm tempted to remove the material while this discussion is ongoing, but, for the moment, I'll leave it. The article is so controversial generally, what's one more? :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 19:47, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a BLP, and the Wikileaks cables, to the extent that they make unsubstantiated allegations, are not proper under WP:BLP. IMO. Collect (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ [1]

Recent changes to article[edit]

User:Moscowrussia, a single purpose account whose only interest at Wikipedia is this article and the Oleg Deripaska article, has returned from a block and then a long period of inactivity to edit the article. What he's doing is removing negative information from the article that is properly sourced and inserting unsourced information. I have reverted him and warned him on his Talk page, but, other than posting a warning on my Talk page, he continues to insist on his edits. This is a contentious article that has previously been locked for edit-warring over content. So, what I intend to do is to revert one more time, refer him to here, post another warning on Moscowrussia's Talk page and take this issue to WP:BLPN.

The negative information he is removing has to do with information about Cherney's business holdings in Bulgaria and Bulgaria's expulsion of Cherney from their country. The material is sourced to the NYT. The unsourced information Moscowrussia is adding has to do with Cherney's brother Lev and Deripaska. For all I know, it may be accurate, but Moscowrussia has provided no inline cites for it.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More problems[edit]

After about a week of leaving the article alone, Moscowrussia is again making problematic changes to the article. He wants to add three things. The first is the following:

The Jerusalem Post reported that on May 13, 2010 a Swiss Court awarded Cherney a record compensation of 30,000 Swiss francs for unfounded suspicions of links to the "Russian Mafia". The Swiss Court ruled that Cherney be financially compensated for moral damages to him and his family caused by the investigation which dragged from 1996 till 2007. According to a Swiss law, this compensation could not exceed the amount of 10,000 francs. Exceptions are made in cases where courts discern "special circumstances". According to the court's latest verdict, this was the case with Cherney, since the investigation had unduly dragged out for eleven years.

(sourced to ([2])

This Post does NOT support this material. The Post is reporting ONLY on what Cherney said, not what actually happened.

The other two things are suits Cherney has filed, one in 2006, and one in 2008, both in part directed against Oleg Deripaska. First, these are both just suits with no adjudication. Second, they are outdated because they rely on reports from years ago with no indication on what has happened since. Third, the two suits are mixed up in the two references with different information appearing in each, and the material in our article isn't supported clearly by the two sources. Particularly, the paragraph about the February 2008 suit in Tel Aviv isn't supported at all. Only the last sentence of that paragraph is related to the source. The whole thing is a BLP mess.

I'm going to revert, and Moscow is going to have to come here to justify the changes to the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the interests of avoiding libel, please allow the reporting of the Jerusalem Post and avoid an edit war. We are quoting the Jerusaelm Post, not Cherney. I will do my best to find a link which directly goes to the Swiss Court decision. I agree that this would constitute a stronger asset. Moscowrussia (talk) 17:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I had to revert you edit. It was not the Jerusalem Post that made that statement but Cherney's spokesperson. The later is not a reliable source. Of course it would be ok though to include the original Swiss Court decision.--spitzl (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what I stated earlier, I agree with your reversion. However, a cite to the Swiss decision would be impermissible per WP:BLPPRIMARY.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rescuing a chapter dealing with Cherney's attorney[edit]

===Yaakov Weinroth===
In December 2009 an indictment was issued by prosecutors in Tel Aviv against Yehoshua Vita, a former senior Tax Authority official, and Yaakov Weinroth, Cherney’s attorney.[1][2]	 
According to the indictment, Weinroth made a number of payments to Vita, and in exchange Vita provided favours for Weinroth’s clients, including Cherney and Arkady Gaydamak. Vita was charged with accepting bribes from Weinroth, who in turn was charged with money laundering and making illegal payments to Vita. During a hearing at the Tel Aviv District Court in January 2010, it was alleged that Vita allowed tax breaks on $2 billion for Cherney and $1 billion for Arkady Gaydamak.[3]

IMHO the chapter is noteworthy and should be re-included in the article under a different heading. Any other opinions on that? --spitzl (talk) 01:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Indictments Filed Against Senior Attorney, Tax Official - Israel National News, 31 December, 2009
  2. ^ Top lawyer charged with accepting bribe, money laundering - Jerusalem Post, 31 December, 2009
  3. ^ Yaakov Weinroth, Ex-top tax official deny graft charges - Haaretz, 22 January, 2010

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