Talk:Misia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Clarification request

I just made a number of changes to this page, but still more need to be made. Many thanks to whoever it was that's supplied so much information. I'm not sure "Her record label is Rythmedia tribe and she belongs Rythmedia" was supposed to mean. Can someone clarify what Rythmedia Tribe and Rythmedia are? (J44xm 03:55, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC))

Album and singer cover

Someone removed the album image with the reason "an album cover is not fair use on a bio article" and in my opinion the removal may not be correct. According to Wikipedia:Fair use, album is considered a type under Cover art and it can be used from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary).

Hence, if an article talks only about the singer but DOES NOT provide any critical commentary on the his/her's album or single (which in fact,is rare), or the album image uploaded is not the ones related to the critical commentary, the album could be removed.

In contrary, if the article does provide some critical commentary on the album in question ( like this article, it DOES discuss Misia version of the song 'Loving you' which is in the album Love is the Message) and an image of the album is uploaded for this purpose. As a result, the use of the album image here is considered Fair Use. Davilaser 17:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, the article as it stands contains exactly one sentence of critical commentary on this album and, in fact, this commentary is limited to one song on the album. The appearance of the album cover has no obvious relevance to the commentary. Still, if we're going to count the album cover as fair use for this article, we should at least put the image of the album next to the text that mentions it. Frankly, this looks to me like essentially an end-run around copyright laws in the interests of decorating the article with a picture of the artist. Nevertheless, since the case is not clear cut, I'm not going to interfere with it, at least not for the time being. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Can't Change Her Page

For some reason, wikipedia isnt letting me change her page, it keeps saying that I am giving wrong information. In The last paragraph of her autobiography, it says that she will be releasing three singles in a row, which is wrong, she will only be releasing two (and a tour DVD). I also tired to add her newest tour DVD "DECIMO X ANIVERSARIO DE MISIA THE BEST DJ REMIXES + Tour of MISIA 2008 EIGHTH WORLD DVD" to her list of tours... and it is saying that is wrong information.

Could someone please fix this, or tell me how to do it without wikipedia removing it right after? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.140.118 (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn —Ryulong (竜龙) 01:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

---

Misia (Japanese singer) → MISIA – Per the precedent set with DJ OZMA, individuals who go by fully capitalized names should be given the same exception to the norm as individuals who parse their names in all lowercase (a la brian d foy, bell hooks, will.i.am, etc.). "MISIA (Japanese singer)", if necessary for disambiguation, is also a viable title, even though MISIA currently redirects here.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment there is no precedent at DJ OZMA. A no consensus closure is not any sort of precedent. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 04:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments made at DJ OZMA -- WP:ALLCAPS and MOS:TM -- 70.24.248.23 (talk) 04:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:ALLCAPS and MOS:TM do not apply to living persons.—Ryulong (竜龙) 05:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Japan Times, Amazon, Taipei Times, Korea Times and Billboard all give her name as "Misia". Kauffner (talk) 06:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • And Natalie.mu, Yahoo.co.jp, Livedoor.com, and Barks.jp all give it as "MISIA", which is the subject's preferred name form. Again, Amazon.com and Billboard.com are not suitable references for a Japanese musician. k.d. lang is not at "K.D. Lang" and brian d foy is not at "Brian D Foy" (anymore); why is the page on the person who calls herself "MISIA" at "Misia (dab goes here)"?—Ryulong (竜龙) 10:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
    • If that's way you feel, it is a good thing the subject doesn't spell her name with kanji. She is certainly primary topic for Misia/MISIA, so "(Japanese singer)" should be dropped. Kauffner (talk) 12:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Use English would prevent a kanji name. The fact is that she calls herself "MISIA", which is the same thing as William James Adams, Jr. calling himself will.i.am or Onika Tanya Maraj calling herself Nicki Minaj.—Ryulong (竜龙) 23:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. The guidelines at WP:ALLCAPS and MOS:TM seem to spell out pretty clearly that we don't use stylistic all-caps, and I have yet to seen any evidence that they do not apply equally to articles about living persons. --DAJF (talk) 14:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • MOS:TM cannot apply to a living person's (stage) name. And I made a discussion on WT:MOSCAPS#Individuals' names a few months ago, but it seems we never came up with a definitive change to the style guide as I thought there was.—Ryulong (竜龙) 19:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose – no such precedent. Consensus leans the other way, just not enough to move DJ OZMA. We don't normally allow mixed usage to override WP style. Dicklyon (talk) 02:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • It is not really mixed usage, as much as it is this person rarely shows up in in English language media, and Kauffner found 3 news articles (discounting Amazon.com and Billboard.com) that refer to the subject of this article as "Misia", whereas the bulk of the publications (those in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, it seems), refer to the subject by the name "MISIA", which is the name she uses for herself.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't mind that she styles her name in all caps, or that Japanese, Korean, and Chinese sources do so. It's actually very common to style surnames, for example, in all caps in those languages, to aid the reader in seeing what's a surname. But WP style doesn't style names in all caps. Dicklyon (talk) 04:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
      • But we do style personal names with no caps. Why shouldn't that extend for the people who style their names in all caps?—Ryulong (竜龙) 04:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
        • • Surely you've seen the RM discussion at DJ OZMA? Dicklyon (talk) 07:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
            • Yeah. And it was split down the middle. The RFC also has never really been closed at the MOSCAPS talk page, either.—Ryulong (竜龙) 07:37, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
        • Wiki policy is to follow the English language RS. In this case, her English-language coverage is quite limited, but it tends to support conventional capitalization. Conventionalizing spelling and capitalization is standard procedure when a name is converted from one language to another. The Romans used all-caps, but we don't have articles at GAIUS JULIUS CAESAR or CALIGULA. Kauffner (talk) 05:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
          • No wiki policy states that English language reliable sources have more weight than reliable sources of any other language. And those historical figures have common forms in English language usage. In the case of MISIA, she is a modern figure who has chosen to parse her name in all capital letters, and the majority of sources refer to her by that name, much like will.i.am is a modern figure who has chosen to parse his name in all lower case letters and the majority of sources refer to him by that name.—Ryulong (竜龙) 05:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
            • Do make this stuff up as you go along? "Wikipedia...prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." So says WP:UCN. Kauffner (talk) 13:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
              • Your Japan Times, Taiwan Times, and Korean Times sources are only 3 instances where this artist has been mentioned in what appears to be an English translation of various Japanese news articles. Finding 3 English language sources does not equate to "Misia" being "the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Either way, this is not an issue between which is the more common name, because both are identical. The issue here is one of casing, and the issue at hand is the mixed application of WP:MOSCAPS when it comes to personal or professional names. Individual people who format their names in all lower case letters are given an exception, as is the case with k.d. lang, will.i.am, apl.de.ap, bell hooks, brian d foy, etc. It just does not make sense to me that the opposite of the spectrum, with individuals like MISIA, YUI, DJ OZMA, etc., are not given the same universal exception to our manuals of style, despite the fact that they are Japanese individuals, who in their cultural complex names written in all English letters are rare to begin with, and writing them in all caps is a norm amongst those who have such mononyms.—Ryulong (竜龙) 18:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Japanese name"

While I have withdrawn the move request, I have extreme reservations against Kauffner's insistance to state that "MISIA" is the "Japanese name" or formatting the lead to have [[Japanese language|Japanese]]: ''MISIA'' (or to use the full width characters, which are not allowed or something according to WP:MOS-JA).

This is a factual inaccuracy. Due to the current wording of the manual of style, the form "MISIA" is not allowed, and there is currently no consensus to move the page to that title. So, as per WP:MOSTM (even though it should not apply to the name of an individual person) and the general practice on this project, the more common form of the name (in this case "MISIA") should be featured in the article lead and be defined as the stylized form of the name. This is practiced on articles such as Ke$ha, Kiss (band), Florence and the Machine, Angela (band), Noah and the Whale, and others. This statement, that "MISIA" is the stylized form of "Misia", does not require a reliable source. The fact that "MISIA" is plastered across her website, and "Misia" appears nowhere, should be evidence enough.

Also, this is not a reliable source to state that "MISIA" or "ＭＩＳＩＡ" is her "Japanese name". The article barely mentions her. All it mentions is that the musician known as Saigenji has worked with MISIA on one of her songs.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely; we should mention in the lead that her name is often styled MISIA, but then just use Misia in the article after that. Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, Kauffner is making this page go against the manual of style by removing ミーシャ and by removing the statement that says "[often] stylized as MISIA" and providing a poorly formatted and poorly chosen refenece to support his edit. While this is a nice news article, it should not be used as a citation for the name "MISIA" because there is no dispute over what her name is. There is only a dispute as to what Kauffner is defining "Misia" and "MISIA" as.—Ryulong (竜龙) 04:45, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Re-adding "ミーシャ" in katakana in the lead wrongly gives the impression that that is how her name is rendered in Japanese, when in fact it is written as "MISIA" in Japanese. If a "guide to pronunciation" is needed, we should use IPA - not katakana - as the last I checked, this was English Wikipedia, not Japanese Wikipedia. Perhaps Ryulong would like to quote the Manual of Style guidelines that encourage or require the use of Japanese script even when it is not used in Japanese. --DAJF (talk) 04:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The katakana form does exist in Japanese usage. While it does not appear on her albums or in articles about her, it does appear in various online databases (Yahoo.co.jp Talent Listen.jp DAM Karaoke). And the IPA pronunciation guide isn't really used on Japanese topics on the English Wikipedia (I have rarely ever seen it). The Hepburn romanization is used in its place.—Ryulong (竜龙) 05:02, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The references given above simply include the katakana pronunciation in parentheses for the benefit of Japanese readers - in the same way as her name is presented on the Japanese Wikipedia article. Without even making an effort to actually search for other articles, Tokyo, Ramen, and Futon are all examples of articles on English Wikipedia that use IPA to show the pronunciation for the benefit of non-Japanese readers. --DAJF (talk) 05:11, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Those are also native Japanese words that also include the Hebonshiki form. I did attempt {{nihongo|'''Misia'''|MISIA（ミーシャ）|Mīsha}} to eliminate the use of the word "stylization" that Kauffner found inappropriate, but he just overwrote that with his over citing. I really wish he would participate here rather than unilaterally get the page moved.—Ryulong (竜龙) 05:18, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Kauffner, I am going to copy my statement to you here because you frankly do not understand what the purpose of the word "Stylized as" is.

It is not necessary to provide a source to show that "Misia" is written as "MISIA" in Japan because "Misia" is only a non-stylized/standard-typeset form used on the English Wikipedia because our internal style guides currently do not allow all capital letters unless a consensus says otherwise. While the Yomiuri article on her and Bono is fine, it should not be used to support your false affirmation that "MISIA" is only an alternate form of the name when it is the primary form of the name in Japan. I've removed the kana, because you and other editors who never touch Japanese articles outside of the ones that I attempted to move can decide what the fuck to do with it considering it is a form that is used in Japan (although rarely and only for organizational purposes), but do not remove the statement that "MISIA" is the stylized form of the name, just because you cannot find it defined as such.

To make things short, "MISIA" is the way her name is written in Japan. "Misia" is the way her name is written in the rare instances English media, such as Wikipedia, discuss her.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

We should leave the mention that the name is often stylized as "MISIA", but we don't need to include the full-width characters (even the Japanese Wikipedia discourages use of full-width Roman characters). Because the name is pronounced differently than is obvious, we should include the kana for the name and the romanization of that kana. IPA, as already mentioned, is not used in Japanese articles, nor is it generally used in academic works about Japanese topics (I can't find even one reference book I have which uses it at all, not even the language learning books and references, and I have nearly 100 of them). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

According to WP:Manual_of_Style_(pronunciation)#Foreign_names: "If a language is not usually written in the Latin alphabet, an official romanisation may exist for it. For example, pinyin for Mandarin Chinese or the Royal Thai General System of Transcription. In such cases, both the romanisation and the IPA rendering may be given". This quite a detailed guideline, but it does not mention katakana. In fact, there is no suggestion of using a different phonetic system depending on which country the subject comes from. Many readers will interpret the current opening to mean that the subject has a katakana name. What is the point of misleading readers in this way? Kauffner (talk) 10:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The subject does have a katakana name, as does anyone else in Japan who uses non-Japanese for their name. As already stated, IPA is not generally used in academic or other works about Japan, the Japanese language, or other Japanese topics. Therefore, MOS-JA doesn't recommend its usage at all for Japanese topics. If you want to change that, then you need to open a discussion over there. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do you keep fighting this? There is nothing in the lead that suggests that her name is written in the katakana form. If anything, this article misleads readers that "Misia" is the preferred form of her name, when I have various sources that state otherwise. Why does ミーシャ mislead them any more than that?—Ryulong (竜龙) 10:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I sense a certain tension here, something that might be more effectively addressed with an onsen or a tea cermoneny, perhaps while listen to this. Is there some reason that you want these characters in the article that you aren't telling me about? Kauffner (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Did you read what Nihonjoe said? IPA is not (commonly) used on Japanese articles, and because the pronunciation of "MISIA" is not clear, the katakana form and its Hepburn form should be included.—Ryulong (竜龙) 19:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Kauffner: Stop removing the word "stylized". It is a means to comply with WP:MOSTM because, apparently, "MISIA" is the trademarked form, while "Misia" is the standard capitalized form that is in use in the small amount of English language media about the subject of this page.—Ryulong (竜龙) 23:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Also that one Business Week article does not seem like a valid source for her full name being "Misaki Ito".—Ryulong (竜龙) 01:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)