Talk:Mobile, Alabama/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Merge List of people from Mobile, Alabama

List of people from Mobile, Alabama is an orphaned article, perhaps created as a split due to the 'Notable Mobilians' thread at the top of this page, since there is no Notable list in the article at all right now. The separate list is short and not even linked to by this page, so probably should be merged (back?) into this article, though perhaps as prose and not a list. AUTiger » talk 19:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I would ask that for the moment we let it stand as is. We can link out to it so it won't be orphaned. The problem with those kind of lists is that they quickly get out of hand and are very difficult to manage. Others may have a different opinion. --JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 02:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a category would be a better solution? I would also agree that the list should remain seperate from the article (if it must exist at all). /Blaxthos 04:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and merged Mobile, Alabama#Notable residents into the List of people from Mobile, Alabama, expanding into several more sections. Left only the historical and modern people I felt would be more well-known to the general public under the Mobile, Alabama#Notable residents in order for the Mobile, Alabama article to flow more smoothly.Altairisfar 06:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Skyline

Replaced the old photo of the Mobile skyline with a 2007 view taken from the USS Alabama in Battleship Park. The old photo was a digitally altered photo that was taken before the Battle House Tower was completed, the top of that building had been added to that older photo. But we still need a higher resolution photo taken on a clear day, I'm going to attempt to take one soon, the current one was the best that I already had. Altairisfar 00:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

First "good article" nomination

I have quick-failed this article based primarily on its complete failure to address important aspects of the city's history, thus meeting the "obviously non-neutral treatment" clause of the GA quick-fail criteria. A history of Mobile which fails to adequately address segregation and the civil rights movement within the city is a broken one. Other majors issues include, but are not limited to: the placement of Arts and entertainment as the first section following the intro. At the very least, History and Geography should come before any culture section (see FA-class examples such as New York City). The external links section needs pruning desperately. The bulleted list of Surrounding cities and suburbs should be either removed or made into prose and merged with Geography. I also see no reason for having an Awards section; keeping a separate section for two entries feels like undue weight on this aspect. Overall, the article makes too often a use of a bulleted list rather than a complete prose section with proper context; the Media section is an especially egregious example of this. In terms of accuracy and inline citations, the article is good in parts but spotty or worse in others. Remember that it's not just about having a certain amount of references, it's about how and where those references are cited. There are many sections where exact statistical counts and dollar amounts are presented, these should have a direct, inline citation to them. The Education section is entirely lacking in inline refs. The bare minimum of inline citation is one at the end of each paragraph and for quotations. Several sections, such as History, have large paragraphs without a single ref. VanTucky ^Talk 21:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have addressed the bullet lists and the article arrangement. I strongly disagree with your quick-failed assessment based primarily on "its complete failure to address important aspects of the city's history, thus meeting the "obviously non-neutral treatment" clause of the GA quick-fail criteria. A history of Mobile which fails to adequately address segregation and the civil rights movement within the city is a broken one." It does need to be addressed, but does not constitute a violation of WP:NPOV. The history section is a broad overview of three centuries of Mobile's history, it does not deal with Mobile's social history on any account. I agree that segregation and the civil rights movement (as well as racism) deserves to be addressed, especially in the History of Mobile, Alabama article or even in an expanded article of its own. Altairisfar 01:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I am asking for a more thorough Good article reassessment of the article. Altairisfar 01:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll say two things: One, I was just considering nominating the article for a GA review when I saw that you already had done so. I think the article is much better than B-class. However, I would recommend re-entertaining the points VanTucky brought up and addressing them by expanding appropriate sections within the article. There is much significance in the information he says is missing, and perhaps not dealing with social history is truely a problem. Let's address the issues instead of rushing back in asking the other parent. /Blaxthos 02:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There are two aspects to ensuring a NPOV: fair treatment, and making sure to give space for all significant points of view. Painting a happy little picture of Mobile by failing to mention the powerful affect racism has had on shaping the social, economic and educational facets of a major Alabama city is failing to address all significant points of view, and thus, violating NPOV. VanTucky ^Talk 02:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it does need to be addressed, but I do not believe it constitutes a quick fail. Maybe it does, but another opinion will not hurt the article. The history section deals primarily with war and how the wars shaped Mobile, it can certainly be expanded further in other directions but it doesn't paint "a happy little picture of Mobile". Altairisfar 03:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Not even elementary school textbooks make the mistake of only treating history in the context of wars, and neither should this article. As to the appropriateness of a quick-fail, I think you can see that so far the decision is unanimous in favor of endorsement. VanTucky ^Talk 18:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

No need to be condescending. Altairisfar 00:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Crossposted from Wikipedia:Good article reassessment

I believe that the article did not reasonably meet the criteria for a quick-fail. If it doesn't meet the good article criteria then I would like a more in-depth assessment. Altairisfar 02:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC).

• Comment After reading the article, and the comments by VanTucky I must say I agree that little or no information about segregation is included. It took me about five minutes to find multiple pages on the net about this and I'm surprised more isn't included in the article. I strongly recommend that more is included on this in the article, and also that History of Mobile, Alabama is expanded. - Shudde ^talk 02:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse delist An article on a major city in the deep south which doesn't mention segregation and the civil rights movement at all in its history section is woefully inadequate. The ironic thing is, the trivia section (oh, I'm sorry, "In popular culture") mentions Ken Burn's The War; which focuses in-depth on the racial segregation, violence and the initial stirrings of the civil rights movement which occurred specifically in Mobile. This isn't just a History issue either, the Education section says nothing about school integration. The economics and demographics sections fails to adequately discuss race issues. It's horrendous. Not only this, but as you can see in my review there are plenty of other issues (even with some of the fixes made recently). VanTucky ^Talk 03:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delist. The article is spotty. Some sections are too short. The writing is often sloppy. Segregation and integration merit additional treatment. I wouldn't say it's "horrendous", but I agree that it's not GA-class in its current form. Majoreditor 17:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delist per eeverything above. Drewcifer 18:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delist I would endorse the above sentiments. It seems to fail the broadness requirement pretty easily, especially given the importance of racial segregation. Indeed, however, the article History of Mobile, Alabama does cover this some. While I would not expect EVERYTHING from that article to appear here (this article should be a sumamry), it should mention SOMETHING of it. Also, some other minor things we might as well fix while we are at it:
  • The transportation section is unreferenced AND it contains an external link in the text, which is contraindicated by WP:EL.
  • The education section is unreferenced, and it contains stats, and dollar amounts, and the like. These need references.
  • Much of the economy section is unreferenced, and this section is LOADED with stats and opinions, like, for one example, "The rapidly growing auto industry in Alabama has also resulted in over 2,800 new jobs created in Mobile." or for another "Mobile's unemployment rate is 5.1%." When was it that? The unemployment rate is updated quarterly, IIRC, maybe more often then that...
  • The lead is a bit sketchy as well. It is a jumble of random facts from the article, poorly organized and not really as summary, as expected per WP:LEAD, but really just a bunch of random facts. The lead needs to be expanded and better organized, into, you know, paragraphs, and such.

This looks like MUCH too many fixes for a hold or even for some quick fixes to be made here in a short time. I would recommend making these fixes, and trying again for a new nomination. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ongoing post good article nomination improvements and edits

Completely merged the somewhat extraneous and very frequently vandalized "Notable residents" section completely into the List of people from Mobile, Alabama. List of people from Mobile, Alabama is in the "Further reading" section. Thinned down the "External links" section a little more. Changed subheading "Popular culture" to "Trivia". Removed the external link in to the Wave Tansit System in "Transportation".

We still need ongoing work on the following:

• References over entire article (see numerous examples above).
• Inclusion of segregation and the Civil Rights Movement into "History" and into the History of Mobile, Alabama article. Which, itself, is largely unreferenced and has many inaccuracies too by the way.
• Work on the lead per WP:LEAD.
• I agree that the bulleted list of Surrounding cities and suburbs should be either removed or made into prose and merged with Geography. Ideas anyone?
• Improvements in the flow of the article and writing style.
• Any other suggestions for improvement?

Altairisfar 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I have closed the reassessment. Per the guidelines for closure at WP:GA/R, there have been comments from at least five users and there is an unanimous consensus to endorse the quick-fail. You may now find it in the archive. If you feel the article now meets the GA criteria, you may renominate it. VanTucky ^Talk 00:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Quick note: Changing the title of the section "In Popular Culture" to "Trivia" is a BAD IDEA. In popular culture is a narrowly defined subsection, and easy to maintain. Trivia is an invitation to add crap to the article. I would change it back. The section was fine as it was. See WP:TRIVIA for more details. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Update on revisions

• Lead paragraph reworded a bit, updated dead references, still needs much work and additional information.
• "Transportation": reworked and added referenced material. Still could use more info.
• "Economy": rearranged, reworked, and added references. Removed unreferenced material for which I could not find sources. Still could use more info.
• "Education": Reworked, added info, added some references for the public schools. Still need work and references for the remainder.
• "History": Removed some unreferenced info, needs much work on history for the late 19th and entire 20th century, especially covering the African-American experience in Mobile. I'm intimidated by this section, I do not think that we want the article to become consumed by a huge history section. Much of the history info on the web is inaccurate, even on official Mobile related sites if my reference books are correct. I have Delaney's The Story of Mobile (1953) which is fairly accurate but biased and the recent Thomason's Mobile: The new history of Alabama's first city (2001) which seems to be very accurate and unbiased. I don't wish for the article's history to be based on just a few reference materials, anyone that can help?
• "Media": reworked and added info, still needs many references.
• In general over entire article: added references to information that could be confirmed.

Altairisfar 21:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Annexation

Annexation of West Mobile —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.147.94 (talk) 02:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

We also need to find an updated picture of Mobile County showing the new city limits.--Donovan Ravenhull 13:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I left a message on the talk page of Arkyan, the original creator of the current image. Judging from the info he already has posted there his images utilize geographic boundary files provided by the US Census Bureau, and therefore cannot be simply updated in that way until the next census. He recommends manually editing the map to reflect updated boundaries with a utility for editing the Scalable Vector Graphics files. He recommends Inkscape. I have downloaded it, but it may take quite a while before I can use it. On another note, the local news media have been reporting that the Mobile Regional Airport will probably ask the city to annex it soon also and this will not require a vote, so Mobile's city limits may expand again soon. Altairisfar 20:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Update on the updates

I've done much work on the history section in an effort to make it fair and balanced, it still needs some work but I think that the basic structure is there now. Now need some other people to review it and leave some of their assessments of where the article is still weak. Thanks. Altairisfar 18:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Completed more major work in the history section, requesting some constructive criticism. Altairisfar (talk) 00:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Intro and readable prose

I've just completed more major work on the intro for the article and did some minor edits to the body to reduce the size per WP:SIZE I did an estimate of the readable prose and came up with 47 kilobytes as per Wikipedia:Article_size#References. The total size of the page is still 92 kilobytes. Most other cities seem to range from 80 to 110 in total size. Still waiting for someone to give the article a peer review/assessment. Altairisfar (talk) 06:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The use of Template:Infobox Weather and a few other fixes have brought total size down to 84 kilobytes. Altairisfar (talk) 23:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Update: Nominated for WP:GA again

I'm nominating the article for GA assessment again, I believe that all of the old issues have been taken care of. Didn't get much feedback from the peer review or my assessment request from my fellow members of WP:ALA, but hopefully I haven't been too blinded by the work I've done on the article. Altairisfar 07:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The article is currently under GA review by User:Rudget. Altairisfar 16:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this article tomorrow. Brace yourselves. No, I'm only joking. :) — Rudget _{contributions} 18:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Mobile's social problems

02-Dec-2007 - Mobile's social problems: I find it highly amusing about the emphasis on Mobile's "segregation" as a major issue. You see, Mobile has had extreme social elitism since the first French settlers stopped, on the way, at Panzacola (Florida) and fought the Spanish settlers (but left), then founded Mobile and fought (over titles & position) circa 1702, leading to today's exclusive parties of the debutante season, including the Mardi Gras mystic societies, as obvious examples of the social elitism. Now, to really complicate the issues, note that secret societies are, well, secret, so it will be difficult to get so-called "NPOV" sources to verify Mobile's highly elitist society. I'm not saying that segregation was not an issue, but perhaps, the section should be called "News Trendy Views of Mobile" rather than an attempt at some actual objective view of Mobile's 305-year history.

I'm not laughing at anyone in particular, just at the notion that "segregation" is at the core Mobile's social problems. Hence: Give me a break! OMG, There's dumb & dumber, and then there's Mobile's "segregation" problem (invented in Mobile, you see): it's not like anyone in France ever said, "The people have no bread? Let them eat cake," about non-black people. LOL!! LOL!! Bump it down the road...to SELMA!!!! Hehehe. Ever heard of Prichard? Oh, too funny! Put that one with the news reports that Hurricane Katrina went into the French Quarter and parked (without affecting anywhere else)! Those 23 fishing boats grounded in downtown Alabama towns must have been an illusion (no, Katrina was pushing them to the French Quarter, but missed and pushed their seawater 12 miles inland through Mississippi). LOL!!!!! Sorry, I just couldn't stop laughing. Oh, too funny. Anyway, there might be some way to hint at Mobile's historical social elitism to downplay the "Mobile-invented-segregation" viewpoints. Too, too funny. -Wikid77 17:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Sarcasm is neither helpful nor welcome. Regarding your views, please see the original research guideline and the neutral point of view policy. Also, keep in mind that this is not a forum for general discussion of the subject matter. Thanks. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

To USER:Blaxthos: Please read the above paragraphs again, focusing on the discussions about the word "segregation" further above, and also, please note that this is not a forum to link "WP" links, but rather focus on the issues discussed for improving the article. Also, sarcastic multiple links to "WP" pages is neither helpful nor welcome, or did you not realize how your attitude affects your posting? If you must be sarcastic, please focus on issues and not attempt sarcastic insults to someone who has worked on over 10,000 Wikipedia articles. Thank you, in advance, for attempting a better attitude, WP:CIVIL. -Wikid77 17:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

An overwhelming consensus was reached during the last GA review (see above) as to inclusion of segregation in this article. All of the material in the article is referenced from reliable sources, and verifiable. Nowhere does it state that segregation was or is at the core Mobile's social problems, though one could infer that. The inclusion of this material is vital to making the article fair and balanced as roughly 50% of Mobile's population is African American. Altairisfar 23:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Attempted objectivity in Mardi Gras text

02-Dec-2007: After having read multiple sources about Mobile's Mardi Gras festival, I noticed peculiar terms in the article "Mobile, Alabama" refering to Carnival as the "religious" term, whereas Mobile treats Carnival/Carnivale and Mardi Gras as a city festival they alter as they wish. It began as French Catholic circa 1703, was segregated by British rule from 1763-1780, and was forced to Spanish Catholic from 1780~1812; however, Mobile added parades on New Year's Eve in the 1830s, and today, the final Monday & Tuesday have been declared school holidays, regardless of political affiliation, and the joint "International Carnival Ball" has been held each November in Mobile for 15 years, since 1993 [see: MardiGrasDigest about 1993]. Perhaps one source tries to force a view that "Mardi Gras" is the final Tuesday, but multiple other sources refer to that Tuesday as "Mardi Gras day" because "Mardi Gras" is a term for the whole festival season in Mobile. Saying a phrase like "the parade was held on Mardi Gras" is like saying "the parade was held on summer" (that's not sarcasm, it's an analogy).

Overall, I recommend consulting multiple sources, especially those posted or published around Mobile, because a particular author's book or website might try to slant terminology contrary to what many other groups in Mobile actually use. I am concerned the article is becoming a "text book" view of Mobile, and ignoring many other available sources around Mobile, within a broader view of the subject. -Wikid77 20:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The article cites the Mobile Bay Convention & Visitors Bureau website, the Mobile Carnival Museum website, a national newspaper article, a Mobile Press-Register article, and the Mobile Area Mardi Gras Association website. Where are these other published sources of which you speak? You do not include them in the article Mardi Gras in Mobile, to which only today you cut/pasted the entire Carnival and Mardi Gras section of this article, of which I wrote every word using the above mentioned sources. You mention MardiGrasDigest as a source, but it's disclaimer statement reads "Mardi Gras Digest & "Carnival Lasts All Year!.....Now! So Does Your News", & " The News & Business Journal of the Carnival Industry", are registered Trademarks of Clark Companies of N.C., Inc. Many pages in the Mardi Gras Digest.com Web site feature links to other sites, of which are operated by companies unrelated to us. Mardi Gras Digest has no control over the content or availability of any linked site." Is that a reliable source? On another note that really doesn't belong on this talk page, I find it questionable, considering our past interactions on other articles (Talk:Mardi Gras in Mobile) that this bone of contention suddenly arises as this article is up for GA review. Altairisfar 21:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

To User:Altairisfar: Your reactions here are all over the board. I changed just 2 sentences, which you have reverted twice, without prior discussion. I did not say the remaining text was incorrect, so why shouldn't I copy some of that into the main article? I checked the sources, to verify accuracy, and adjusted several phrases into the other article, but overall it was okay. Saying the Mardi Gras text in the article "Mobile, Alabama" doesn't belong as a subject on this talk page is really reaching. Then, mentioning "this bone of contention suddenly arises as this article is up for GA review" sounds like you are trying to suppress opinions about the article under review. Please stop, stand back and be objective. There is some kind of psychological situation arising here, and the reactions are way off center. I am not the enemy here. I am trying to correct peculiar, incorrect wording in that article: everyone knows Mobile Mardi Gras starts before New Year's, with society balls, so why keep deleting that? -Wikid77 01:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A psychological situation? Someone's been reading my userpage. Objective? Your arguments seem to tend toward a confirmation bias. The verbosity of your statements does not verify the facts.

Your "small" changes to this article were reverted for several reasons, in addition to the fact that your version changed the context of the heading. I sought and received a third opinion on this after your last revision from User:AuburnPilot, a fellow Wikipedia:WikiProject Alabama member. You also received an opinion regarding your statements on segregation from yet another Wikipedia:WikiProject Alabama member, User:Blaxthos, and then accused him of incivility. The subsection is about the Carnival season as defined by the refereced material. Regarding changing format styles, you should follow the style already present. Per WP:FN: converting citation styles should not be done without first gaining consensus for the change on the article's talk page. Per WP:MOS, consistency promotes professionalism, simplicity and greater cohesion in Wikipedia articles. An overriding principle is that style and formatting should be applied consistently throughout an article, unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. Regarding sources, internet and published, sources must be verifiable and reliable. Per WP:SOURCES: In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.

Other issues raised:

• The prior weather table did not provide conversions to metric, therefore excluding a large part of the wikipedia community. It does still need to be addressed with a more compact table that autoconverts however.
• The article is graded mid importance per the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities guidelines.

Please see your talk page for further details as some portions of this discussion are better suited to be discussed there than on this talk page. Altairisfar 02:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Beyond good enough article

03-Dec-2007: The article "Mobile, Alabama" has been greatly expanded in the past few months, and I believe it now contains a very impressive range of information. It could be very close to achieving "Good-Article" (WP:GA) status. Regardless of that situation, I say congratulations (already) to all who have contributed to greatly expanding the article's content.

Now, for the future, we should focus on more civility in dealing with other editors' additions to the article. Let other people make contributions, without a cut-throat pursuit of reaching the WP:GA goal. Who cares? The article is good enough for qualifying as "good" material.

There are more troublesome issues, which I would address:

• bizarre huge climate table: someone changed the narrow climate table into an over-wide insert that calls Template:Convert 60 times to convert rainfall inches to mm, or degrees F to C, even though the calculations were already done, hardcoded as short numbers in the prior narrow table. Anyway, the table is now 7kb (about 8% of the entire article) just to show temperatures/rain. There are weather-templates already existing which format that data in about 1kb of article text, potentially reducing article size by about 6kb, quite quickly, without having to proofread large sections of text. Also, in the future, the article might be a candidate for an even better, smaller weather-template table.

• balancing history coverage: Ideally, the history could be summarized into planned sections representing major events, say for each 50-year period. Even though hitting some highlights will likely satisfy WP:GA, I think a representive sampling of each 50-year period (or so), outlining urban renewal, would make the article better than WP:GA.

• wider range of photos: The clean skyline photos are very good; however, just "off-screen" to the left of the skyline is another important picture for Mobile, the extensive shipyard operation along Mobile Bay; similarly, other photos could be added from various sources to help diversify the visual range, including perhaps photos of Mobile's older abandoned areas. Security risks could be more blurred. Extra photos are not mandatory for WP:GA but could surpass that level.

• roll-out detailed sections: I believe more could be done to shift details out to other "main" articles, so that the core of the article "Mobile, Alabama" could be made even smaller, focusing on a "Mobile-in-a-nutshell" type of article.

• reconsider medium-importance city: Maybe along some scales, Mobile would be considered medium-importance, but that doesn't seem to make sense, when all factors are considered. I think Mobile should be reconsidered: the first full-fledged capital of French Louisiana (over 17 years), oldest city in the area, very probable inspiration for founding New Orleans, a major seaport, massive trading center, an antebellum city that wasn't burned to the ground, large population center, highest rainfall for growing crops (outside Tacoma), vital I-10 link as a bridge/tunnel into Florida, testament to social elitism, etc.

Mobile is not an isolated, fringe city, and I think the article could be better balanced in view of that position. However, again, I must commend all those who have expanded this article in the past few months: great job, in a very short time. -Wikid77 01:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Weird Clouds

I doubt that this would be good to put in the article, but I just had to share it with my fellow editors around Mobile. The following link is to a page at the nat'l weather service branch in Mobile, AL, and it includes a picture of a cloud formation that appeared over Mobile, AL back in 2003. If nothing else, you just _have_ to see this. Also, someone might want to check to see if nat'l weather service photos are public domain--if so, it would make a great pic for the page. www.srh.noaa.gov/mob/121103hole_punch/holepunch-main.html — Eric Herboso 10:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I from Daphne here. It's a remarkable photo, NWS pics, like all federal government employee works, are public domain. However I am not sure it would really fit in the Mobile article. A little extra research and a stand alone article could be useful. - JodyB _talk 13:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Assessment

Here is the revision of the page I assessed, but I have since made subsequent edits. Below is my assessment.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   (no edit wars etc.)

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Further analysis of my findings:

• All images were correctly tagged, captioned and appropriate to the article in question. Y
• Grammar, spelling and prose was excellent.Y
• Everything is readable, and doesn't incorporate words that a "beginner" wouldn't understand.Y
• It is very good for the single-handed work of Altairisfar, and avoids POV-style content, something important for an GA nominee.Y
• It is factually accurate and is backed up comprehensively with verifiable and independent, reliable sources.Y
• The article is focused and addresses a broad range of information without going into unnecessary detail. Y

Other Comments

I am willing to pass this article based in it's reivision cited, and the subsequent edits I have made. It's a very well written article. Next step FA. Regards, — Rudget _{contributions} 17:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

column reflist

the references were soooo long I switched to a 2 column list. Fell free to change it if you like. - JodyB _talk 20:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

A few recent changes, partially in an effort to reduce page size:

• Added Healthcare section, after coverting this recent addition into prose and adding sources:

There are 5 hospitals in Mobile, Alabama.

http://www.hospitalsreport.com/Alabama/hospitals/Infirmary_West.asp http://www.hospitalsreport.com/Alabama/hospitals/Mobile_Infirmary.asp http://www.hospitalsreport.com/Alabama/hospitals/Providence_Hospital.asp http://www.hospitalsreport.com/Alabama/hospitals/Springhill_Medical_Center.asp http://www.hospitalsreport.com/Alabama/hospitals/Univ_Of_South_Alabama_Medical_Center.asp

There are 15 nursing homes in Mobile, Alabama.

http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Allen_Memorial_Home.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Cogburn_Health_And_Rehabilitation_West_Inc.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Cogburn_Health_Center_Inc.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Cogburn_Nursing_Center_Midtown.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Crowne_Health_Care_Of_Mobile.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Gordon_Oaks_Convalescent_Center.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Gordon_Oaks_Convalescent_Center.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Little_Sisters_Of_The_Poor.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Lynwood_Nursing_Home.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Mercy_Medical_Snf_Mobile.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Mobile_Nursing_And_Rehabilitation_Center.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Sea_Breeze_Health_Care_Center.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Springhill_Manor_Nursing_Home.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Springhill_Senior_Residence.asp http://www.nursinghomespro.com/Alabama/nursing_homes/Twin_Oaks_Nursing_Home_Llc.asp

• removed the table "10 largest manufacturers in Mobile", of which I was the author, as it really didn't contribute very much to understanding the economy of Mobile.
• removed some Carnival and Mardi Gras info that is covered more extensively in the subarticles Mardi Gras in Mobile and Mystic society.

Altairisfar_talk 19:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I finally got around to creating the articles for Mobile's nine historic districts. Altairisfar_talk 04:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Unlinked material above as possible spam links, a link to this site was added again today in the External links section. Altairisfar_talk 16:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Media

I just wanted to advise the editors who are most active here that according to current Wikipedia practice, we don't do separate lists of radio stations for each individual media market — however, we do permit larger overview articles that list all media, including radio, television and print, by individual city. Accordingly, I've moved List of radio stations in Mobile to Media in Mobile, Alabama — however, as I'm not personally familiar with the market, the television and print sections on that article are currently just straight copy-and-paste from the short blurbs on television and print media in Mobile that were already present in this article. So I'd invite somebody more familiar with the Mobile media market to expand Media in Mobile, Alabama to provide more information on the television and print markets. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 22:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "MoMfort" :
  • "Other Locations: Historic Fort Conde" (history), Museum of Mobile, Mobile, Alabama, 2006, webpage:[http://www.museumofmobile.com/html/other_museums.php MoM-Other]
  • "Other Locations: Historic Fort Conde" (history), Museum of Mobile, [[Mobile, Alabama]], 2006, webpage:[http://www.museumofmobile.com/html/other_museums.php MoM-Other].
• "antebellum1" :
  • Thomason, Michael. ''Mobile : the new history of Alabama's first city'', page 65. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press, 2001. ISBN 0817310657
  • Thomason, Michael. ''Mobile : the new history of Alabama's first city'', page 69-71. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press, 2001. ISBN 0817310657
• "conde1" :
  • {{cite web|title="Historic Fort Conde"|work="Museum of Mobile"|url=http://www.museumofmobile.com/html/other_museums.php|accessdate=2007-10-18}}
  • {{cite web|title="The Holiday"|work="Carnival Cruise Lines"|url=http://www.carnival.com/Ship_Detail.aspx?shipCode=HO|accessdate=2007-10-18}}

DumZiBoT (talk) 04:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

mobile homes

Because there are some active editors in here, I figured I'd just put this info out on the talk page and let you guys decide whether its worthy of putting in the article. Mobile homes were invented in Prichard, Alabama and were named after the good city of Mobile -- not, as is usually assumed, because they are mobile. The reference info for this is here: <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.snopes.com/lost/mobile.asp |title= Snopes |accessdate=2008-08-19}}</ref> . I hope this is helpful! — Eric Herboso 15:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This just seemed incorrect and I had never heard of it. If you check the "reference" page to the article, it states that it is not true and is just an exercise in creative writing. Here's the "reference" page: www.snopes.com/lost/false.asp. Cheers. Altairisfar_talk 15:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Population

Its been commented a few times (outside of here) about how Mobile has a low density compared to other cities in the same population area. Perhaps we can find some cite for this, for it is an unusual feature of the city. --Donovan Ravenhull (talk) 07:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Could it because nearly a quarter of the total area of Mobile is taken up by water? I don't know how it is in other states, but in most of the cities of Alabama, there is very little water in the city limits. Out of the "major cities" only Tuscaloosa and Mobile have a significant amount of water area in the total city area. I changed the pop densities of Tuscaloosa and Mobile to reflect that. --Ttownfeen (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

According to 2000 census data Mobile had a population of 198,915 and Montgomery had a population of 201,568 (Difference of 2654). But, based upon the statistical areas and upon common acceptance Mobile is considered 2nd, not 3rd in population for the state. I think that the opening sentence, even though accurate in a hair splitting sense, is a little misleading. I don't normally engage in edit wars so I'll make my suggestion here to leave the article's opening information but move it to the end of the first paragraph. Dpnew (talk) 13:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The structure of the first paragraph follows the guidelines that all articles about U.S. cities must follow at Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline. It specifies that the population of the city proper, then the metro area, must be given using official U.S. Census figures. While it is true that many may consider Mobile to be second, we have to deal in verifiable facts. As a resident of Mobile, I'm sure that our city officials would love for us to be second. It's been the topic of several Press Register articles. Maybe with the 2010 census it will pull back ahead of Montgomery, especially with the new annexations that will now be within the city limits.

I have no problem with some minor reworking of the lede, but I don't think that moving a portion of the first sentence to the end of the first paragraph would be the way to go. Established practice usually gives a city's size in relation to the other cities in its state (or the nation with larger cities) within the first sentence. See Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Dallas as a few random examples. The article may never make it to featured article status, but I do not want it to lose its good article status with the next GA review. Altairisfar_talk 15:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to compile the info. I'll leave the population info alone. Additionally, I added a couple of sentences to the "Colonial" portion of the "History" section but noticed there is also a separate "History of Mobile, Alabama" article. Are there guidelines as to what needs to go in a main city article and what needs to go in the separate "History of ..." article? BTW, I currently live in N. Ala but have lived all over the state, including Mobile. Dpnew (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I saw your improvements to the Colonial history, I liked them and say go at it with whatever you want to contribute there. Most guidelines say to try to keep the history on the main article as short as possible. Although I made it as concise as I thought possible, you can see that it is still quite extensive. Most people would probably think it too long, but Mobile has such a long history for an American city... The History of Mobile, Alabama article can be as long as we can possible make it, but after some clean-up and expansions I really haven't put much time into it. Thanks for helping out! As an Alabama resident, have you given any thoughts to joining us at WikiProject Alabama? We could use any help offered from experienced Wikipedians in Alabama, so many people in the project seem to be inactive these days. Even if you don't work on Alabama topics often. Myself, Dravecky, Dystopos, and Spyder Monkey seem to be the only editors actively working on Alabama-related subjects these days. Altairisfar_talk 18:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Azalea Trail Maids

I was astounded to find that Wikipedia did not have an article on the Azalea Trail Maids. I've created a rough start, mostly based on the things I remember from my highschool days. I'm sending up a flare to ask for assistance in improving the article (both content and sourcing) -- even if you don't want to actually write the article, please send me some source citations and I'll hunt the source down and incorporate it into the article. Thanks! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:09, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for starting one. I'll incorporate a link within the Mobile article and add it to Mobile template. I'll see if I can up with some additional sources for the Azalea Trail Maids. I know there has to at least be some additional news coverage from the time of the presidential inauguration, with the all of the controversy within the state that it stirred up. Altairisfar 23:40, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Protection

Protecting a page for almost half a month because one user keeps editing a page is ridiculous. The topic is under discussion, and anyone who is not mature enough to wait for the discussion to end before changing the relevant section should be blocked from editing. Please unblock this page.--Svgalbertian (talk) 15:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Sister cities/Palestinian flag for Israeli settlement

Under the Sister cities section, a user at 24.23.198.90 is changing the flag icon for the West Bank Israeli settlement of Ariel from the Israeli flag to the Palestinian flag:

 Ariel, West Bank (Israeli settlement)

to:

 Ariel, West Bank (Israeli settlement)

My reasoning for why the Israeli flag is used here is that the settlement is populated by Israelis and is governed by Israel. The anon user's position seems to be that since it is in the Palestinian territories the Palestinian National Authority flag should be used. Comments? Altairisfar 14:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe this work by the scholarly journal xkcd expresses this dispute in a succinct manner. - Dravecky (talk) 23:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

• RFC Comment: There are two sides to this, what you mention about the Israeli de facto governance is a valid point, but on the other hand just putting the Israeli flag there could be seen as legitimizing the settlement, which is after all a war crime. One solution would be to put no flags there (Ariel isn't in Israel after all, and even Israel doesn't claim it is), or then put both. --Dailycare (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
• RFC Comment: In this case it's not a matter of international law. List cities per Mobile government. If they will have Mildendo, Blefuscu sister city - search for Blefuscu flag. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 00:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
• RFC Comment: The logical thing to do is to use the flag of the current government who is in control of the territory in question. If you were to use the flags of countries who claim ownership of one location by decree then the world's map would be rife with contradictions since many areas are under dispute around the world.Chhe (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
• Use Israeli Flag or no flag - Israeli settlements are defacto Israeli. An Israeli flag flies above the city no? I think the most honest thing to do is use the Israeli flag or none at all. NickCT (talk) 00:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• RFC comment We don't need to splatter flags all over every passing mention of a country, see an essay on this, and it causes exactly this type of problem. Just name the place and leave the flags out. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for all of the input thus far. I'm leaning towards no flag, but will wait a while for more opinions. Altairisfar 21:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• RFC comment sister cities always have flags next to them. Per the Oslo Accords (not just de facto) this area is under Israeli control. The real question here--and this requires some investigation on your part--is whether the sister cities cities agreements between the two cities describe Ariel as an Israeli or Palestinian city. I'd be shocked if it were the second, but some more research is needed. Saepe Fidelis (talk) 04:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
• Info: The Mobile, AL web site calls it "Ariel, Israel" in an official press release. [1] No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

 Administrator note I have fully protected the page until a consensus can be reached. Please let either me or RFPP know when the article is ready to be unlocked. Nakon 22:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Mobile's official Sister Cities page, used as a primary source within the article, lists it as Ariel, Isreal [sic]. Initially not aware that Ariel was in the disputed West Bank territory, I changed it to Ariel, West Bank (Israeli settlement) after being made aware of the contentious nature of listing it simply as being in Israel after several users zeroed in on it in 2009. The Sister Cities International website directory for Alabama also lists it as Ariel, Israel. Lastly, the City of Ariel website asserts that it is Israel and the capital of Samaria, although this is not recognized internationally... Altairisfar 00:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
• RFC comment Agree with NickCT. The legal status of Ariel's territory is murky but it's undeniably an Israeli settlement and not Palestinian. Either the Israeli flag or no flag, either seems ok. Sol Goldstone (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
• RFC comment Actually that is not my position, my position is that if there is a flag there it should not be Israeli. See Cartographic aggression. Saddam Hussien says Kuwait is a province of Iraq, maybe we should change all Kuwaiti flags? This is ridiculous. Whether Mobile and Israel say it is Israeli is moot compared to the weight of verifiable information that this simply is not Israel, whether or not the settlement is populated by Israelis (obtained through ethnic cleansing) is not the point - placing an Israeli flag on it will give readers the impression that it is Israel (which is why the town uses it). Placing an Israeli flag there is straight up Cartographic aggression. At least no flag. An Israeli flag is seriously undue weight. And frankly the Mobile article is an excellent article, I can't understand why someone would place that flag there and drag in one of the single most decisive issues amongst editors. Not to mention, what possible gain can be achieved for an article about Mobile to cause offence to the vast majority of humanity which does not share US or Israeli views on double stands for war crimes (the Settlements). 24.23.198.90 (talk) 08:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

@24.23.198.90 - Could it be that Israel's cartographic aggression has succeeded, and you simply don't want to admit that for POV reasons? NickCT (talk) 19:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

It probably has... in Mobile, Alabama. However it's a much bigger world, and international borders are not defined by the sister cities committee in Mobile, and as a source on such matters a press release by the city of Mobile carries zero weight compared to nation states and international bodies. When it comes to recognition by nations, it hasn't, as not one nation on earth (aside from the protagonist) accepts it. 24.23.198.90 (talk) 04:14, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Besides you are missing my point, this hot button issue should be avoided for the Mobile article (minimum no flag), as it is a great, and very well maintained article. It's not like the status of Ariel is going to be resolved on Talk:Mobile. 24.23.198.90 (talk) 04:20, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Flags involve political and territorial control. Israel has both. Whether that is fair or disputed is not relevant. Many a place has been taken over by someone, and the lingering claims to ownership are not what matter. Wikipedia obviously doesn't make a ruling on the legality or morality of this, simply the current status. Currently, for all intents and purposes, despite the UN's toothless ruling, and the reasonable rantings of many Palestinian supporters, it's Israeli. If one day the UN actually takes meaningful action to control or govern those territories, the issue will change. Until then, Wikipedia should reflect the status quo. Also, I presume, although sources would have to back it up, that Mobile, Alabama (of all places!) believes their pact is with an Israeli city, not an 'Israeli-Occupied palestinian territory'. That wouldn't be sufficient reasoning, but it's another reason to use the flag of the country which is currently in control and currently being sister-citied with. Ocaasi 03:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

What every country on earth bar one recognise does not qualify as "lingering claims", but the overwhelming global consensus on what is, and is not Israel. 24.23.198.90 (talk) 21:42, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually I meant 'lingering' as persistent not settled or meaningless. My point is a concrete one. Israel controls those territories politically, territorially, culturally, and militarily. They lack some international recognition. I don't like or prefer that situation, but it seems pretty clear that Mobile Alabama thinks their pact is with an Israeli city, that de facto it is an Israeli city, and that the territorial dispute should not be reflected in Wikipecia's flag graphic until the situation on the ground actually changes. Ocaasi 07:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• RFC comment I would suggest remove all the flags from all the sister cities they are only being used for decoration. The politics and other issues of the related cities can be found by the reader from the linked article it is not really the purpose of this article to delve into any issues of these cities and should really remain neutral. MilborneOne (talk) 10:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment It appears that we have reached a consensus to at least remove the flag in question. The WikiProject Cities guideline for U.S. cities seems to advocate using the flags, so removing all of them would probably just create more issues down the road. If no one has any objections, I will request that the page protection be removed so that the change can be implemented. Altairisfar 02:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Looking for someone to nominate this article for GA status

Does anyone else think this article is up to GA status?--Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 23:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• It is already a GA article. Did you mean FA? JodyB _talk 00:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Israel flag for Ariel

Your current set up of delegitimizing the city of Ariel, Israel is imbalanced, angering and incorrect. Please do not remove the flag of Israel accompanying it.124.180.140.187 (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

No one cares about your anger. Myself, I was in favor of the Israeli flag, but the consensus ruled. The discussion above was quite extensive and conclusive: Sister cities/Palestinian flag for Israeli settlement. Altairisfar (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Flag icon for Ariel, an Israel in the occupied West Bank

The discussion is heating up again on the Mobile, Alabama article as to whether the sister city list should include an Israeli or Palestinian flag for an Israeli sister city that is a settlement in the occupied West Bank, see previous discussion at Talk:Mobile, Alabama#Israel flag for Ariel. The last discussion in 2010 led me to remove the flag entirely, now an anon user is constantly adding back the Israeli flag and saying that they are angry about any insistence that no flag be present. Altairisfar (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Forced to choose one or the other I would prefer the Israeli flag since their government, not the Palestinian Authority, rules there. That said, this political contention doesn't belong in an article about a city in Alabama whose biggest contentions are football and NASCAR. No flags at all should please just about everyone. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Palestinian flag The territory in which the city is located is recognized as part of the de jure authority of the SoP by the vast majority of the world's states. DOCUMENT★ERROR 14:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Israeli flag The city of Ariel is under the governance of the State of Israel; therefore, following the principle of NPOV, it should be preceded with the flag of Israel. Having no flag at all or a Palestinian flag is both portraying a factually inaccurate situation and a statement of political agenda.124.180.140.187 (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment to 124.180.140.187: Please don't go on changing this while this RfC is discussing it. It's not usually considered correct behaviour here. Thank you. DBaK (talk) 08:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Duely noted, sorry.124.180.140.187 (talk) 10:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks! :) DBaK (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove Flags. I agree that this is not an article for debating the political status of Ariel. This is just a random American city that happens to have a sister city with Ariel. To avoid this needless controversy, I support no country flags for the list or at least not for this particular city. They're not necessary, anyway. Scarlettail (talk) 19:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove flags: (changed my mind - see below) since we cannot have either the Israeli or Palestinian flag without seeming to take a political position - in a very sensitive area yet one which is wildly irrelevant to this article! - then we should have neither. However, it has already been made clear that having no flag for Ariel when Havana is allowed to belong to Cuba and Malaga to Spain will be seen as itself a political statement ... therefore remove all the flags and leave an HTML editor note explaining why and asking for it not to be changed without the editor coming here first. This should cause minimum offence all round, I hope. While it does not match all other articles of this type it is at least internally neutral. This issue, in this article, is really not worth the time we're spending on it, let alone that spent on it here in the past. Best wishes, DBaK (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• No flag for Ariel Removing all of the flags would make this U.S. city article different from all of the other U.S. city articles, unless I'm mistaken. Please elaborate if I am incorrect. I believe that the status quo should be maintained, with no flag for a city in a disputed territory. All of the Israeli supporters are going to support the Israeli flag and all of the Palestinian supporters that one. Regardless, the Mobile, Alabama article should not be a pseudo-battleground for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I've been working on this article since 2008 and got it to GA status, so I know how this all goes. The Manual of Style guideline concerning flag use states to not use a flag if its use could be a contentious issue. The U.S. cities guideline gives flag use as the example to follow for the Sister City section. It has been four years since this was last discussed, with no major issues since then. If I remove all of the flags, it will be a constant battle to keep others from adding them back, with either the Palestinian or Israeli one included. Altairisfar (talk) 22:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • No flag for Ariel Having read the above from Altairisfar I feel I must go with that - a return to a formerly stable status quo. Keep the other flags, lose the Ariel one, apologize to people from either side who are angered by it. Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 00:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove flags:This is ridiculous. As a Mobilian I say remove the flags; don't let future disputes turn Mobile, AL into a proxy battle of the unending Israel-Palestine online activist war. NickDupree (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove flags: This kind of abuse of WP as a platform for WP:ADVOCACY/WP:SOAPBOX crap is precisely why we have MOS:ICONS and it advises against using flag icons any time they cause disputation.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:14, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
• No flag for Ariel or Israeli flag: while my personal opinion would be that the group directly controling the city (i.e. Israel) should have its flag displayed, as in the Senkaku Islands dispute, it would probably be best here to just not have any flag for this particular city until the dispute is settled. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 21:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
• Israeli flag If you want the article to reflect reality, than you shouldn't change it. If you don't want the article to be accurate, then by all means let your political POV weaken the article and Wikipedia at large.124.180.35.254 (talk) 12:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove Flags The land the flag is based on is under dispute. Adding a flag will make this page a proxy battleground, the page is better off without it. AlbinoFerret 14:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
• Remove all flags. I don't think I have ever seen a sister city list with flags anyways (correct me if I'm wrong, however)I am wrong; ignore the crossed out words. Anyways. With this much unnecessary debate, this would be the easier option. Or, and this is just a suggestion, we can just make a new image combining the two flags. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 00:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Consensus seems to be overwhelmingly for the removal of all flags in the aforementioned section, which I will now do with a hidden reference to this discussion. Altairisfar (talk) 05:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Ariel in Israel

Ariel is a settlement in the West Bank, a place nearly the entire world agrees is not in Israel. It is a straightforward NPOV violation to call Ariel a city in Israel, beyond that it is just factually wrong. Not even the Israeli government claims the West Bank is in Israel. There are a hundred sources that say Ariel is not in Israel, among them The Christian Science Monitor, Haaretz, NY Times, and The Guardian. Ariel is not in Israel, despite what the website for the city of Mobile, AL says. nableezy - 18:57, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• I completely agree. Although the city is Israeli, it is definitively in the occupied Palestinian West Bank. First the flag issue, then, once that was settled, the IP editor changed it from the current wording, which had been "Ariel, an Israeli settlement in the West Bank" since 2007 (when I worked for almost a year to bring the article up to GA standards) to Ariel, Israel. I knew what the city website states, but that doesn't make it a fact. No county that I am aware of, not even the U.S., recognizes the West Bank as Israel, although they have occupied it since the 1967 war. I am so weary of this bulls**t. It is such a trivial detail in this article, but it continues to be the target of editorial wars between Israeli and Palestinian supporters. I am no longer watching the page, since I'm so disgusted with the entire mess. Other editors can handle it or screw it up until this is settled. Altairisfar (talk) 12:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Quite. Everything to do with Middle Eastern politics, nothing to do with a town in Alabama, and heading for WP:LAME at a rate of knots. DBaK (talk) 12:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree this isnt the place to argue it, that should take place at Talk:Ariel (city), and Id rather not have that fight drive people away from editing an article on a city in Alabama. All that said though, this article shouldnt contain a provably erroneous fact in it. nableezy - 16:04, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 29 January 2015 Suggestion

I have an edit request to add references to the one line in dispute (the Ariel settlement) in this article. First, the Mobile's Sister Cities citation should be removed, as it is already present at the top of section. It could be made into a repeating reference for each city listed if need be, but I had just put it at the top intro since that seemed the most logical. These articles discuss that Ariel is indeed a settlement in the occupied West Bank and I believe should be added as verifiable references to the line in question if we intend to end this farce:

• Hagai Amit (July 25, 2014). "Forget Tel Aviv, Israel's house price boom is really in Ariel". Haaretz. Retrieved January 29, 2015.</ref>
• Ariel Zirulnick (September 14, 2010). "Five largest Israeli settlements: who lives there, and why". The Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved January 29, 2015.</ref>
• Isabel Kershner (September 9, 2010). "A West Bank Enclave Is on Edge". The New York Times. Retrieved January 29, 2015.</ref>
• Peter Beaumont (May 14, 2014). "Israeli hardliner predicts rapid settlement growth in West Bank". The Guardian. Retrieved January 29, 2015.</ref>

I believe that the article protection level should be restricted to registered users for a couple of months once the current protection expires, that should cool it all down (I hope), I am so weary of this issue that I wish that I could convince the city council to cease the sister city agreement with this settlement. Thank you for your time, whatever your decision. Altairisfar (talk) 13:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC) (Jeffrey A. Reed)

Not done: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Please make sure you have consensus first. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 03:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Ariel Controversy

If there's so much controversy on something that doesn't even have relation to the page whatsoever, then how about this compromise: remove Ariel from the Sister Cities list until further notice. I know that it would be inaccurate, but if such a useless edit war is going to happen just because of a city's location that has no relation to the article except for a single iline, then the best thing to do is just remove it. Remove it until Ariel's location can be fully confirmed as either Isreal or West Bank, and put a note stating why.

Note that this is just a thought I had in mind. State below if you agree or disagree. I don't expect change, or for this to get approval, but it's just a suggestion I had in mind, and if you do agree, then the change may happen. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 03:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The only way that works imo is to remove the entire sister cities section. Otherwise, to cover the other sister cities would be a type of pov, the type that says, we'll cover this subject, but only if it's easy. I would endorse elimination of the sister city section. It really doesn't tell the reader that much about the city anyway. John from Idegon (talk) 04:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I was actually thinking that as well. I mean, why do we even have the sister cities list in the first place? I suggest we remove the sister cities list altogether, from all cities, or if not, just Ariel from this list. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 05:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: It would be inaccurate but you might as well get rid of it and have yet another Wikipedia article containing glaring factual inaccuracies. Wikipedia has been taken over by POV pushers regarding anything that is even remotely related to Israel. How can an official Mobile government source be given stating that the city of Ariel, Israel - and not Ariel, an Israeli settlement in the West Bank - is a sister city of Mobile, Alabama, only for the latter to be placed in the article? Even when those words are not in the source given! For accuracy, the only fair thing to do is to put the flags back, list the city as "Ariel, Israel" with the Israeli flag in front of it, and add a note stating the contentious and/or disputed nature of the locality underneath it. 124.180.167.228 (talk) 11:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Pyrotle: I don´t think that is the way to proceed. Nobody agrees to "Ariel, Israel": the Israeli government has not annexed Ariel-area. That certain POV-puchers tries to push this POV, should not stop us from stating the fact, namely that Ariel is an Israeli settlement on the West Bank. We could of course remove all the sister cities, but I fear that the problem will then just move on to Heredia, Costa Rica. Huldra (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Except the option was to remove all sister cities period. As in from all city articles. I don't think it'll succeed, but it's just a thought. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 14:29, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

That is a bit draconian, isn´t it? Listen, I understand perfectly that people editing outside the I/P area get totally sick of it when they are unwittingly drawn into the I/P conflict, like on this article. People like myself (who edit in the area) are just too used to it: if we were to cut out everything which was controversial, then there wouldn´t be much left of the topic...... Huldra (talk) 14:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It is draconian when you consider that the total removal is because of this controversy. It's not draconian, however, when you think the lists are useless and unnecessary anyways, which is admittedly what I think.

However, that's a different discussion. For now, we have the option of just removing Ariel from all that apply until its location can be fully confirmed. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 15:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Why are we discussing this now when it's been stable for a while? Look at the edit history - the flag issue has not been raised (hoho) for quite a few edits. Why not just leave the status quo? DBaK (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Because it is possible that this will start up again, which we don't want. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 15:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I hive no opinion on the flag issue, but the source clearly says "Ariel, Israel". Wiki works by citing reliable sources, not by what editors think is correct. I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 21:07, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Do not change it while we are discussing it - that's just bad manners. DBaK (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

But you can go ahead and change it while we're discussing it? How does that work? I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 23:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I reverted your change. I am so sorry that you are unable to understand this. DBaK (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

And I had previously reverted yours. Why is your action ok while mine is not? I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 00:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Is the City of Mobile's Special Events Departments website a RS on this sensitive political question, I wonder? It does not seem to be cited at our own article on the settlement, for example. Shouldn't it be? If it's authoritative on this matter?? Or how about Sister Cities' International's page for Mobile? Is that an RS, because the weird thing is it doesn't agree with the other more local site - it says it's "Ariel, Palestinian Territories (Israeli Settlement)" ...is that authoritative? I dunno. Do you? DBaK (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The City of Mobile's website is a RS for who the Sister Cities of Mobile are, yes. I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 23:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a sadly inadequate response. Oh, look, you completely failed to comment on the other website. Can you olny see ones that you like? Sad. DBaK (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It is a perfectly adequate response to the question you raised. again - The City of Mobile's website is a RS for who the Sister Cities of Mobile are. I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 00:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

This edit war is why I'm proposing to remove Ariel from the list altogether until further notice. And I made this without intention from the flag issue; if you actually look at the contributions, people chnaged the location of Ariel after the flags were taken off. Pyrotle…the "y" is silent, BTW. 23:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It is not an edit war, it's just someone with poor etiquette. DBaK (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It takes two to tango. Your edits are a mirror image of mine. I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 00:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, I do not have room for your squeakings in my life right now, and I have no time to attempt to educate you - so enjoy your article. Bye. DBaK (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Ta ta, then. Don;t let the door hit you on your way out. I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk)

The city's website is reliable for saying Ariel is its sister city. It however is not reliable for saying Ariel is in Israel. This article doesnt exist in some neverworld completely separated from the rest of the encyclopedia, and the municipal website for the city of Mobile cant claim Ariel to be in Israel when even the state of Israel does not claim Ariel is in Israel. nableezy - 06:54, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't give a single fu ck WHAT YOU THINK Ariel is a part Israel there is no fu cking "palestine". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.98.113 (talk) 12:27, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2015

The Fun Ship Holiday belonging to Carnival was in Mobile and the Carnival Elation replaced the Holiday. I knw it was the Holiday, because I cruised the Holiday. 166.177.186.65 (talk) 12:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• •  Not done What is needed here is a specific request for the copy you want, a specific location for where you want the content, and reliable sources to verify the content you are requesting to be added. Personal knowledge is not an acceptable source for anything on Wikipedia. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 18:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism

Huldra, please think before you edit. If you look at the changes you make with this edit, you will see that many, many of those changes are vandalism, which should not be restored (eg, changing "President James Madison" to "Supreme Leader James Madison"). FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:30, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

User:FreeKnowledgeCreator Yeah, please do think before you edit. Notice that you placed Ariel (city) on the occupied West Bank as being i "Israel"? Huldra (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The edit you made restored vandalism to the article - as should be obvious to anyone looking at it. If the claim about Ariel was inaccurate, you could and should have removed it without restoring vandalism in the process. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

OK, I see what you mean, alas, your edit restored the that "Ariel" was in "Israel". What about restoring it to this edition? Huldra (talk) 07:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

LOL, I see you already have, Huldra (talk) 07:49, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Does this seem awkward?

I love this article. Good work everyone and thank you from a resident.

In my opinion, the two paragraphs below seem a bit awkward when compared to the rest of the piece. The rest of the work states the actions and facts about the Civil Rights era and its aftermath in a clear, non opinionated manner. I feel these two paragraphs need some attention in that regard.

Would it be possible to expand on the facts in the highlighted sentences such that they come across more historically? Both of the sentences are true, but they seem to deserve an explanation via helping people understand the specific actions and circumstances involved. Personally, I was unaware of the work toward early integration of the civil forces and the voluntary desegregation of buses and lunch counters and I think it would be beneficial as a fact which helps define our city.

Again, I praise the work as it stands. I do not feel capable, nor morally authorized, to make the edits myself, but I hope some of you would consider the points and possible actions which might be helpful.

The transition to the postwar economy was hard for the city, as thousands of jobs were lost at the shipyards. Eventually the city's social structure began to become more liberal. Replacing shipbuilding as a primary economic force, the paper and chemical industries began to expand. No longer needed for defense, most of the old military bases were converted to civilian uses. Following the war, in which many African Americans had served, they stepped up activism to gain equal rights and social justice, especially in the Jim Crow South. The city of Mobile police force and Spring Hill College were integrated during the 1950s. Unlike the rest of the state, the city buses and lunch counters voluntarily desegregated by the early 1960s.

The Civil Rights Movement gained congressional passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965, eventually ending legal segregation and regaining effective suffrage for African Americans. But whites in the state had more than one way to reduce their voting power. Maintaining the city commission form of government with at-large voting resulted in all positions being elected by the white majority, as African Americans could not command a majority for their candidates in the informally segregated city.

Salbasia (talk) 15:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Bayfest Now Gone

Bayfest no longer exists in Mobile and ceased operations in 2015. An alternative sprung up, seemingly last minute, called Ten Sixty Five.

The city hosts BayFest, an annual three-day music festival with more than 125 live musical acts on multiple stages spread throughout downtown.[99] The event was attended by more than 200,000 people and generated in excess of $38 million for the city's economy during its 2011 season.[100]

wkrg.com/2015/09/16/bayfest-music-festival-cancelled/

BayFest 2015 organizers: Festival is canceled, effective immediately (updated)

Mobile's new downtown fest has a name: Ten Sixty Five | AL.com

Mnemnoch (talk) 05:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

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Acknowledgment

Thank you to Mobile Public Library Local History and Genealogy Division for providing informative newspaper articles about Mobile's sister cities. -- M2545 (talk) 19:56, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2017

In the "Government" section, third paragraph, last sentence, I would suggest adding "...and was re-elected to a second term on August 22, 2017." (Stimpson took office on November 4, 2013 and was re-elected to a second term on August 22, 2017.) (http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2017/08/mobile_voters_go_to_polls_tues.html)Deemon1211 (talk) 15:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)PJP Deemon1211 (talk) 15:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

@Deemon1211:  Done although I didn't include "to a second term" since I think that was already stated by the word "re-elected." Thank you for noticing this. CityOfSilver 16:32, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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Public School System Information.

My name is David K Akridge. I am a high ranking employee of the Mobile County Public School System in Mobile, Alabama. I'm the Executive Director of Technology and have worked in the system for 27 years. Data is a big part of my job and the data on the school system is very outdated. Number of schools, students, budget, and employees are not accurate. I'm new to Wikipedia and not sure how edits on these types of pages are made. I can gather better information and provide or can be allowed to edit. Please let me know what I can do to help?

David K Akridge dkakridge@comcast.net dakridge@mcpss.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkakridge (talk • contribs) 22:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2020

I'm going to add the fact that this town was in Ken Burns' documentary The War Ygdflgdflop (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 16:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit request: Link to Old Mobile site

Adding a reference to the newly updated page on the Old Mobile site in the colonial history section would be useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mobile_Site — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.250.21 (talk) 21:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Protected against vandalism?

Why is this page protected? Thanks in advance.HumbleConservative (talk) 16:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I suspect it is because it's sister city Ariel; an Israeli settlement on the occupied West Bank. Certain pro-Israeli vandals insists on changing West Bank to Israel, cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. But if you look on the other sister cities o Ariel, those cities' pages aren't protected. Cheers. -HumbleConservative (talk) 00:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

What??

This page was apparently protected because of arbitration sanctions on the Arab-Israeli conflict, but how does this city even relate to the conflict!? Is it some error? --🔥LightningComplexFire🔥 19:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

See the section on sister cities. The issue lies there with Ariel being a sister city. Scarlettail (talk) 20:29, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but the other city's sister cities are not protected. Why is that? -HumbleConservative (talk) 00:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

New city seal?

The city updated its seal in 2015 to remove all flags except for US flag in the background. That could use an update in the info box. You can see it used now in city docs (like meeting agendas, minutes, etc.). And would the new city logo be appropriate to add the the page? Can’t remember when the rebrand happened, but I’m talk about the one on the city website (and all around town now)--Lahti213 (talk) 14:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I added the new one but need the new flag too to replace old oneLahti213 (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

References

New subsection needed

21st century, thanks! Guide7547 (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I 2603:6081:4201:3DAF:3858:2821:F758:EE83 (talk) 07:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Unprotect page

Looking through these comments, it seems that this page has been protected for a long time, and is in dire need of fixes from the community (for example, the image of the city seal which is several years out-of-date).

According to [the wikipedia admin pages](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_guide/Protecting), protections should be kept short and have a specific purpose. Please unprotect this page so that Wikipedia can continue to be an encyclopedia that "anyone can edit".

173.18.228.33 (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Photo request

If anybody is near Magnolia Cemetery (Mobile, Alabama) with some time on their hands, we could use a photo of the fancy mausoleum of notorious American slave trader Hope H. Slatter. According to a website that shall not be named, he's in Square 15-Lot 28. TIA if anyone can help. jengod (talk) 07:06, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Update Sports Section

The section for Sports is outdated. The football team of the University of South Alabama no longer plays at Ladd-Peebles Stadium. They now play at Hancock Whitney Stadium. Additionally, the Dollar General Bowl is now called the 68Ventures Bowl, and is also played at Hancock Whitney Stadium. The Senior Bowl is also played there. I would make these changes, but the page is protected. JClary1 (talk) 12:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)