Talk:Moshavat Kinneret

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Moshava[edit]

I find it unfortunate that the "JPost staff" and some others cannot tell the difference between a moshav and a moshava (both unrelated to a kibbutz), but we Wikipedians should not make the same mistake. There are plenty of reliable sources making it clear that it's a moshava, including the Sea of Galilee Tourist Website and others, such as the Authority for the Development of the Galilee (defines it as a communal settlement/moshava); the Central Bureau of Statistics; Yedioth Gazetteer (Lexicon of the Land of Israel), p. 482; Ariel Encyclopedia, vol. 4 p. 3681; and more.

It seems that in light of this, choosing two sources which don't talk about Kinneret but only mention it in passing isn't the best way to go about resolving this dispute. Are there any sources that are authorities on geography or place names that label it as a moshav? —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who founded it?[edit]

The article says that it was founded by the Jewish Colonization Association, but an early book I have (Israel Cohen, ed., Zionist Work in Palestine, published on behalf of the Zionist Central Office, 1911) says it was established by the Palestine Land Development Company. A journal article I found says that the land purchases were initiated by Rothschild and "sorted out and completed" by the JCA. Since PLDC was only founded in 1908, same year as given as the establishment date of Kinneret, I guess that the place was established by the PLDC on land previously purchased by the JCA. However I don't have a source which spells it out like that. Zerotalk 01:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now I see that another book on my shelf has a large section on it, with a complicated story. I'll be back... Zerotalk 01:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the land was certainly purchased by or with the help of the Baron Rothschild. According to the two book sources I gave in the previous post, it seems that it was founded by JCA, although the text is ambiguous and can indeed mean that it was also purchased by JCA. —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The book of Shilony that I just added has many pages on this question that I am trying to disentangle. One thing that is noteworthy: Kvutzat Kinneret claims the same 1908 origin as the moshava. What happened is that the kibbutz was founded by the "Kinneret Group" at this lake-side location in 1913 after the previous occupants (Ha-Ikkar ha-Za'ir from the USA) disbanded. In 1926, they moved to the current location of the kibbutz about 1km away. How the original site developed after that is unclear, as it out of the date range of Shilony's book. Another mystery: the 1939 British topological map of this area shows the location as "Kinneret (Mallaha)" — what's that about? (The same map shows the kibbutz as "Kinneret Group", but the way.) Zerotalk 03:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And more things to understand: The 1922 census has "Kinnereth and Temanin", 149 Jews, and "Mount Kinnereth, 17 Jews. The 1931 census has "Kinneret", 256 Jews, and "Qevutsa Kinneret", 123 Jews. What and where were "Temanin" and "Mount Kinnereth"? I know the latter was some sort of satellite settlement, but I can't find it on a map. Zerotalk 04:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mount Kinneret is the mountain on which Alumot is located today.
I believe also that some of the confusion stems from the fact that originally Kinneret was two separate adjacent settlements—the moshava (by JCA) and the socialist farm (by JNF), which moved to yet another adjacent place and called itself Kvutzat Kinneret. By 1922 though both of these places were comparatively well-established, so I am not sure what the census is referring to. —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is "Temanin": [1] Zerotalk 10:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Change the name![edit]

@Zero0000: Hi Zero. Now that there are so many articles about different Kinnerets, all in Israel (see Kinneret) and all connected, I think we should change the name of this one to "Kinneret (moshava and farm)", and maybe go a step further and create "Kinneret Farm" as a separate article, well linked to the moshava, but on its own. Eventually the cemetery might also get its own page. What do you think? Would you do the separation? Cheers, ArmindenArminden (talk) 06:55, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: It's a bit of a mess altogether isn't it? And I think there is something missing still. Please see this article about Yemenites in Kinneret. I looked a couple of years ago but could find barely a whisper about it in English except for a few brief references that made it sound like an embarrassing scandal was involved. Perhaps you can find out more and add it to the appropriate place. Zerotalk 13:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In this article there is "in 1930, after an indescribable amount of suffering, death and humiliation, were they were moved (in effect: evicted) to Marmorek in the centre of the country." There is a book about it (in Hebrew) by Yehuda Nini. Zerotalk 13:14, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Marmorek" is "Kefar Marmorek", now a suburb of Rohovot (no article?). Zerotalk 13:20, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero0000: Not really a mess. Consider what the topic is: two separate settlement projects (not counting here the Yemenites), thoroughly different by nature, but sharing public facilities, and one of which (the Farm) became the nucleus of most Zionist pre-State institutions (kvutza-kibbutz-moshav, regulated marketing of food and produce, self-defense, woman rights movement, savings bank,........), not to mention poetry, lore & legends, done with just a handful of people who could all easily fit cum livestock into a provincial town's stadium. The Yemenites (Te[i]manim in Hebrew, thus the name of that colony by the Motor House) were deeply religious Jews from a terribly backward country, who came believing the Messias is nigh. They broke their backs working and got little in return, but in 2016 that's easier to understand than at any other time: the staunchly Zionist East Europen Jews, most of them consciously anti-religious, progressive mid-class people, more often than not socialist-minded, had close to nothing in common with them. The Yemenites were the essence of what they had been running away from, except for the willingness to work the land. How many Europeans do you know who would encourage clans of Yemenite refugees to move into their town? About Kefar Marmorek: you pointed to the Hebrew WP page on this talk page before and I looked it up today, Google Translate be thanked. I don't have any reason to doubt what they wrote there - village on land bought with money donated by a Mr. Marmorek, lost its agric. character after '48 and eventually became part of Rehovot. The Yemenites concentrated there, coming not just from Kinneret's Motor House, and still have their own synagogue etc. To be honest, I was thinking on setting in a distinction between the East European First Aliyah and the simultaneous immigration from Yemen. There have always been messianic returns, but that's not the definition of modern Zionism, and the Aliyot are only counted from 1882 onwards and are defined as motivated primarily by secular reasons, whether ideological or not. The WP article on the First Aliyah is falling into the anachronistic, PC trap of retroprojection and counts in the Yemenites. So yes, the Yemenites were treated badly, few promises were made and then hardly any were kept, and malaria killed them in numbers until they could take it no more. Nasty. But please keep the perspective, it's a time when most settlements counted a few dozen inhabitants, hundreds at best, and cohesion was hard to achieve and keep, starvation was common (WWI), banditism rampant, malaria killed more than anything else (American messianics and German Templers didn't escape it either), nothing was taken for granted and opinions and ideologies were the only higher imperative. The Kinneret cemetery is full of pioneers who didn't reach 30, quite a few committed suicide and that was partially due to not coping with the mental toughness which was part of the "new religion", not just because of objective hardships. There was one lady in Degania who took in Yemenite children and offered them some kind of kindergarten activities, and that's about the only redeeming story I know of. I can't read Hebrew, hopefully one day, so that book by Yehuda Nini will have to wait (for translation?), but thanks! ArmindenArminden (talk) 14:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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