Talk:Murder of Thomas Oliver

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Ireland Low‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	An image is requested for this article as its inclusion will substantially increase the significance of the article. Please remove the `image-needed` parameter once the image is added.

Irish Republicanism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Irish Republicanism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Irish RepublicanismWikipedia:WikiProject Irish RepublicanismTemplate:WikiProject Irish RepublicanismIrish Republicanism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Release of murderers[edit]

The current link provided does not upload (404 message); the following Google searches ([1], [2], [3]) also proved fruitless -- nothing in Google Search responds to "Thomas Oliver killers to go free". If it is true, then a better link should be available. What's more there is no inclusion of the assertion itself that the 3 men (RIRA 3, or whatever) are going to be released in this article itself. Quis separabit? 15:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Terrorism cat[edit]

@Mabuska: The cat is usually avoided. See The Troubles for example. Not a mention of the word terrorism. Anyway is killing a "informer" really terrorism regardless of whether it is justified?Apollo The Logician (talk) 12:06, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Seek consensus for controversial edits and at present there is none. Also who says the category is usually to be avoided? Usually doesn't mean it must be and it has been in the article for a good while now (since 2012) with no problems so unless you can provide a valid reason for me to agree with you then it stays.

Also on Wikipedia you are meant to avoid using other articles as evidence as every article is its on entity. And yes it is still terrorism as you are sending the threat of terror to others who may or may not be informers or thinking of becoming one. Yet that is simply IRA propaganda to justify the murder. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:13, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mabuska:Yes there is. Me and the IP User. Ther have been discussions about it. The consensus has always been to avoid the words terrorist or terrorism. See here for one example. According to the terrorism page it is "Terrorism is, in its broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim". This is not indiscriminate violence.Apollo The Logician (talk) 12:19, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Personally considering your recent personal attacks against me based on a distorted interpretation of my user profile, which belies your own bias on the subject matter I'd rather take and abide by the view of Canterbury Tail who is an administrator on this site well versed on the topic and its nuances rather than yourself and a dubious IP. The talk page discussion you post provides no evidence of any policy or guidelines against or for its use. As Canterbury Tail stated at Harrods bombings where you ignored the WP:BRD guideline despite quoting it yourself very recently rv, these are valid categories. All major sources describe it as terrorism and the responses all described it as so. The word can be used on Wikipedia, it's just it needs to be justified and be sure it's relevant not casually thrown around.. Then again it has been in the article since 2012 no problem. Some valid argument please? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:30, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page discussion I posted provides evidence that there is a consensus to avoid terrorism cats. Reverting once is not breaking BRD. You reverted once in the Irish war of independance article as well. What sources call Thomas Oliver's death as terrorism? How does how long the cat has been in the article matter? I see you avoided the fact that this cleary does not meet the definition of terrorism. I would revert your edit as there is a consensus to have the cat removed but I will not break the 1rr. Also what distorted interpretation of your profile?Apollo The Logician (talk) 12:38, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources are describing it as a terrorist attack so I believe the removal of the category to be fair and reasonable. However be aware that there isn't actually a Wikipedia wide consensus to avoid the use of the word terrorism and it's categories. We just need to be careful of it's use and make sure it's backed up by sources. Canterbury Tail talk 20:44, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo please wait until the discussion has ended before jumping ahead as head counts don't equate to consensus. Thus I reverted again as there is no consensus yet but I am leaning towards agreement if no sources cite it as such. Maybe the article creator @Fergananim: who added the category in the first place can enlighten us. If they likewise agree then I will remove the category myself for you as a sign of good faith. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:48, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

considering there is a consensus to remove it I have done soApollo The Logician (talk) 11:48, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What consensus? Also it is customary to wait longer than a few days to see if more responses come or not before reenforcing your contested edit. As it is I won't stand in the way of it due to lack of evidence however your eagerness should be held in check a bit, let time for discussion to occur... Mabuska ^(talk) 20:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Five days is plenty of time.Apollo The Logician (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC) Apollo The Logician (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its almost twenty now. That is plenty of timeApollo The Logician (talk) 22:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC) Apollo The Logician (talk) 22:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not in reality Apollo especially when an editor may not be able to make it due to real world instances. There is no harm in patience. 20 days would have been better than 5. Please learn to be a bit more patient and also please don't cite non existing consensus as it is bad faith. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]