Talk:Nazi salute/Archive 1

Title

I'm sorry, this should be titled Hitler salute instead of Hitler Greeting. Phlebas 21:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page history

For page history see [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phlebas (talk • contribs) 21:56, 19 April 2005 (UTC)

England football team

Probably worth putting a picture of the England football team giving the salute in 1936. Jooler 01:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Why would that be useful? They were doing to show respect to the German government when they played agsint the Germans in 1936. Themanfromthenorth 19:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

What Wikipedia doesn't want you to know

Any truth here?; ( http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/rcurry_20051205.html )

December 05, 2005

What Wikipedia doesn't want you to know.........

Rex Curry

With so much information online, there is a big need for encyclopedias. Wikipedia is not the answer. Wikipedia has writers and administrators who squash the truth. They are anti libertarian and they glorify totalitarianism with their Nazi-style behavior. Wikipedia’s lies are so infamous that it has inspired a nationwide boycott, especially for the apparent Neo-Nazism of some of its more rabid writers.

Wikipedia writers prevent any mention of the new historical discovery that the USA was the source of the Nazi salute. The USA's first Pledge used a straight-arm salute and it was the origin of the salute of the monstrous National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis), as shown by Dr. Rex Curry. It was not an ancient Roman salute. Professor Curry helped to establish that it was not an ancient Roman salute, and that the "ancient Roman salute" is a myth. A image search on the web for the “original pledge of allegiance” provides additional information.

The Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag. Due to the way that both gestures were used, the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an extended military salute. Additional information is available in web searches for the text "military salute became the Nazi salute."

Francis Bellamy (author of the "Pledge of Allegiance") and Edward Bellamy (author of the novel "Looking Backward") and Charles Bellamy (author of "A Moment of Madness") were socialists. Edward and Charles were brothers, and Francis was their cousin. Francis and Edward were both self-proclaimed National Socialists and they supported the "Nationalism" movement in the USA, the "Nationalist" magazine, the "Nationalist Educational Association," and their dogma of "military socialism," and Edward inspired the "Nationalist Party" (in the USA) and their dogma influenced socialists in Germany, and the Pledge was the origin of the Nazi salute. "Nazi" means "National Socialist German Workers' Party." A mnemonic device is the swastika. Although the swastika was an ancient symbol, Professor Curry discovered that it was also used sometimes by German National Socialists to represent "S" letters for their "socialism." Hitler altered his own signature to use the same stylized "S" letter for "socialist" and similar alphabetic symbolism still shows on Volkswagens. " Additional information is available in image or text searches for “swastika secrets.”

Dr. Curry showed that many modern myths about swastikas are based on the false belief that Nazis called their symbol a "swastika." German National Socialists did not use the word "swastika," but called their symbol a "Hakenkreuz."

Recently, one Wikipedia writer became wiser and improved the "Roman salute" article somewhat so that it recognizes and repeats some of Rex Curry's discoveries. Other pledge and salute articles on Wikipedia are as bad as ever.

The Wikipedia article for the "Roman salute" used to be complete disinformation, deliberately maintained by phonies who tried to perpetuate myths. Here is an excerpt of what Wikipedia used to carry: "The Roman salute is a closed finger, flat-palm-down hand raised at an angle (usually 45 degrees) and was used by the Roman Republic. It was also the historical civilian salute of the United States, from 1787?-1934?, known since 1892 as the Bellamy salute. It was also the historical salute among armies of the Middle East and South America." Wikipedia liars also used the painting "The Oath of the Horatii" as absurd support for a Roman connection. The foregoing is all incorrect and of course without any attribution nor support on the Wikipedia page because there is no support. It is not a Roman salute. Yet, Wikipedia regulars allowed the disinformation, including the dates “1787?-1934?” with the question marks included, to remain posted on Wikipedia, while deleting anyone who tried to correct the propaganda.

Similar criticisms apply to the Wikipedia pages on Francis Bellamy, Edward Bellamy and the Pledge of Allegiance.

Wikipedia falsifiers use the misnomer "public schools" when they mean "government schools" and they both cover-up the Bellamys' desire to promote a government takeover of education, a desire to end all of the better alternatives, and to impose socialism (and what the Bellamys called "military socialism") within government schools. The Bellamys loved the military and wanted all of society to ape the military. Those points also help explain why Francis Bellamy enjoyed starting the pledge with a military salute.

Some regular writers on Wikipedia knowingly engage in personal attacks and deletions (even of links) of anyone who explains the connection between Edward Bellamy and his cousin Francis Bellamy (author of the pledge of allegiance) and National Socialism. Some of the worst offenders on Wikipedia are Stormie, Lupo, Matt Crypto and Craigy144. They were challenged to respond to the facts that they suppressed or to concede those fact, and they each conceded that the facts that they suppress are correct and that they delete those facts because they do not want Wikipedia readers to know the truth. They constantly spam their own point of view in their diatribes in which they try to cover up for Nazism. It is behavior that breaks Wikipedia's rules. What kind of people cover-up for Nazis and that horrid ideology?

Wikipedia's cons use the term "Nazi" and the misnomer "Nazi Party" to cover-up the horrors of socialism. Wikipedia's falsifiers behave similar to Holocaust deniers in that they cover up the the socialist trio of atrocities and their socialist Wholecaust (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million people were slaughtered under the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 35 million were slaughtered under the Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million were slaughtered under the National Socialist German Workers' Party. They cover up the fact that socialists helped start WWII with the National Socialist German Workers' Party and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics together as allies in 1939, and invading Poland in a secret pact to divide up Europe.

Wikipedia writers cover-up the Bellamys' desire to promote a government takeover of education, a desire to end all of the better alternatives, and to impose socialism (and what the Bellamys called "military socialism") within government schools. The Bellamys loved the military and wanted all of society to ape the military. Those points also help explain why Francis Bellamy enjoyed starting the pledge with a military salute.

Wikipedia should not be cited in the media nor anywhere for support because it is no different than quoting various anonymous sources who have no knowledge of the topic or who have fibs to spread about the topic.

Mr Curry is a nutter with an obsession. The history of the salute is detailed in the Roman salute article (which had a visit from Mr Curry in the past - see its talk page). The Nazi-Soviet pact is well known, and is covered widely on Wikipedia, so it is hardly "covered up" by anyone. Everybody uses the term "Nazi". It wasn't invented by Wikipedia editors to conceal the word "socialism"! The Bellamy salute was not the same as the Nazi salute, as anyone who looks at Bellamy's description can see. The idea was that you saluted the flag with a normal military-style salute and then straightened out your arm gracefully with palm upward as you made the oath. It was supposed to represent the act of lifting up the flag. Anyway, even if the gesture had been the same, so what? It's just a gesture. The Soviets used conventional salutes, does that mean that the US military are Communists because they use the same gesture as the Soviet military!

Yes, the "Roman salute" page did once contain innaccuracies, but that's not evidence of a conspiracy. It's just what you get when you have an open encyclopedia! The point is to correct error when you see it. Paul B 15:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

addendum: Since I am the Wikipedia editor who "became wiser", by incorporating "Professor" Curry's discoveries, I guess I should note that the valuable information he provides is not his own discovery, though he is to be credited with making it more widely available. The material about the use of the Roman salute in films derives from an academic article by Martin Winkler.[2] His "discovery" that the swastika/hakenkreuz includes S shapes standing for "Socialism" is, however, his own work. And he is right, we have excluded it from the Swastika article, because he just made it up. The real reasons why the Nazis chose the swastika are well documented. Paul B 16:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources?

Are there any sources for these two sections:

However the phrase "Sieg Geil" has been a common German satirical variant, to hint at the vivid sex life of high Nazi officials like Dr. Joseph Goebbels. The German word "geil" means "horny" or can in some cases more accurately be translated as "hot".

and

In parts of occupied France, the form "Heilt Hitler" (Heal Hitler) was used.

At least the first one seems to be total nonsense to me, so I've removed it. PDD 21:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

And why does it seem "total nonsense"? It's also in the German Wikipedia, and seems to be well attested in numerous pages on the web. Paul B 23:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

For a number of reasons: (a) In spoken German you would not notice any difference between "Sieg Heil" and "Sieg geil". (b) "Sieg geil" doesn't make any sense, grammatically. (c) Looks and smells like a totally made up, apocryphal story, so that's probably what it is. PDD 09:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Besides, if this part was translated from German wikipedia, it's in the wrong context. German wikipedia claims that the "Sieg geil" and "Heilt Hitler" variants were in use DURING WW2 which has at least a very slight chance of being possible. In the context here it seemed that "Sieg geil" was used AFTER WW2, which can be definitely ruled out. PDD 09:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Your argument is "original research" (WP:OR). You are saying you don't like it because it does not seem plausible to you, for no particular reason other than sheer assertion. But is well attested. Look up "sieg geil" on google. Why can it not have been used after WW2 - because Nazi greetings were banned? I think you will find they were and are used, often in satirical ways. The German wikipedia article on Hitlergruss includes it, so should we, since German Wikipedians would undoubtedly have deleted it if it were apocryphal.

I rest my case then. It's on the web somewhere, so it must be both true and of encyclopedic relevance. PDD 09:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It is well attested that the expression is known and is used. In a section on satirical usage, yes, that is encyclopedic. Paul B 02:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

(a) In spoken German you would not notice any difference between "Sieg Heil" and "Sieg geil". Well - I am German and in Germany you would definitly notice a big difference!

As another native speaker of German I agree. Especially since "Sieg Heil" is and was usually pronounced with a short gap or pause between the two words. Someone making the joke would take care to make the distinction heard. --Simha 11:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

merge?

I think this article should be merged into Roman salute and the whole thing movfed to fascist salute. Jooler 14:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur there is no significant difference between the Roman Salute and the "Hitler salute" except the occasional yelling Seig Heil which is a rather minor difference that can be acknowledged on the Roman salute article. "Hitler Salute" sounds juvenile and should be changed in the Gestures article as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.53.33 (talk) 03:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Hail/Heil

I've reverted Rhombus's changes, not because they are inaccurate, but because they are too confusing and over elaborated. The English Hail and the German Heil are essentially the same word. Hail meant "good health" and then was a general salutation. It's related to other words meaning health (Hale etc). I don't think we need all these connotations to be elaborated upon. Paul B 10:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

edits by 80.58.205.33

80.58.205.33 has added the following: "It actually originated in the south of Belgium, in a small town (Mons). Used by Robert Rudfalt during the 1922 Mons election." No reference is given for this, and I can find no mention at all of "Robert Rudfalt" on the web. If this comes from a reliable source please provide it. I have removed it meanwhile. Paul B 09:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Australia

The Hitler Salute is forbidden in AustraLia? :) Didn't you mean Austria?

User:Myrtone86, who added the statement, is Australian, so presumably he meant Australia not Austria. Paul B 22:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

No no no I'm German the Hitler salute is forbiddden in Germany AND Austria! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.146.119.112 (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

An interesting piece of news to add?

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2004/06/12/496946.html

Wrestler loses his job over goose-step and "heil hitler" salute in a wrestling ring in Germany

Feel free to add it to the list of links if you feel it's relevant. I think it is and points out that this sort of thing, even in parody, isn't acceptable to the Germans. SmUX 15:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but it might be worth mentioning "Der Fuhrer's Face" in the satirical section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Fuehrer%27s_Face -anonymous 9 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.79.7.16 (talk) 15:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Standard military salute

The article states that "after the July 20 Plot in 1944, the military forces of the Third Reich were ordered to replace the standard military salute with the Hitler salute." What was the standard military salute? The rest of the paragraph describes its use, but not its form. Was it the typical "longest way up, shortest way down" palm-forward salute, or something similar? It would be great if we could find a photograph, or even better video footage, of senior German officers delivering a non-Hitler salute. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

German troops as far as I can tell from film and photographs salute by just bringing the right hand up to their right eyebrow with a kind of diagonal tilt from head to elbow, palms facing in to their face. Here's a good example. http://www.tylersmilitarysite.com/images/sldhgsoihg.jpg D Boland (talk) 00:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done I've included an existing photo. For extra credit, the officer pictured taken part in July 20 Plot! --Kubanczyk (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Non-German use

What about the use of the "hilter salute" by organisations outside of Germany, e.g. the Lebanese Forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.52.132.166 (talk) 11:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not the Hitler salute, since they aren't expressing loyalty to Hitler. Other uses go in Roman salute. Paul B (talk) 12:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Romulan salute

The article says that the similarities between the fictional Romulan salute and the Nazi salute are because the writers wanted to signal the Romulans were fascists and villains. However, since many aspects of the Romulans appear to be based on the historical Romans, is it possible that the Romulan salute was meant to be based on the Roman salute rather than the Nazi salute?

Seitz (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Satirical use

The entire section seems wp:or. There are no citations from wp:rs--Work permit (talk) 02:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Arte Johnson of 'Laugh-in' fame once strutted around at some Jewish convention giving the Hitler salute. It did not go over well. Go figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.57.123 (talk) 00:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Referenced additions

I added referenced additions to the article, including the manner of salute and it's origins. I added referneces for some statements. I deleted unreferenced statements of dubious veracity which could not back up with a search for wp:rs, as well as some unreferenced trivia--Work permit (talk) 04:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

more References

Fr "However, such a joke could land the joker in jail.[citation needed]" see de:Flüsterwitz: "Treffen sich ein Internist und ein Psychiater. Der Psychiater grüßt: „Heil Hitler!” Darauf der Internist „Heil Du ihn! Du bist doch der Irrenarzt!”"

An internist and a psychiatrist meet. The psychiatrist greets the internist with "Heil Hitler!" Then internist replies "No, you heal him! You're the psychiatrist!" you might find that one in "Der Flüsterwitz im Dritten Reich", Gamm, Hans-Joachim, published by dtv/List (I don't have a copy of it around to check, but google search indicates that it's in there). -- 78.43.93.25 (talk) 20:14, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

---

Hitler salute → Nazi salute — This article deals with both the "Sieg Heil" and "Heil Hitler" topic. —Mootros (talk) 10:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

How nice to pretend there was any discussion. Lars T. (talk) 01:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB)

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. And so I've added Tilman to back up the primary source--Work permit (talk) 06:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Good! 217.171.129.74 (talk) 19:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Axis countries

After expanding the Roman salute article and doing more research, the section on "other countries" belongs, imho, in the Roman salute article and not the Nazi salute one. The salute makes a transition from film to Italian fascism. There is no clear delineation between its adoption by the Nazis and other fascist movements. There is much to expand on in the Nazi salute article on its use in Germany alone, there is no need to broaden it to other movements here rather then the other article. As a reminder, Fascist salute redirects to Roman salute, as it should.--Work permit (talk) 10:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

OK! Mootros (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup: towards a better/good article

We should discuss what needs to be cleaned up. If there's no discussion, I'll remove the tag in a day or two--Work permit (talk) 01:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Good idea! Mootros (talk) 11:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Here a quick assessment, open to further suggestions:

"Description" needs clarification and more details. (If you are able to read German have a look at the German wikidpedia to get an idea)

Do you have a link to the article? Needless to say, we'd need sources.--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

[[3]] Actually, there is less than I thought there was. But what there is (unreferenced) here [[4]] sounds a bit more accurate. I.e. that it was expected to use the salute in day-to-day interaction and only on later (when?) people where "penalised" when they did not comply. Two robust looking references (but not text citation), and one very interesting weblink (verbatum from Soldatenzeitung, 1944) are there:

Karl Prause: Deutsche Grußformeln in neuhochdeutscher Zeit, Breslau 1930. (Älteste/erste Sekundärliteratur zu diesem Thema)

Tilmann Allert: Der Deutsche Gruß. Geschichte einer unheilvollen Geste. Eichborn Berlin, Berlin 2005, ISBN 3-8218-5761-7

http://www.ns-archiv.de/system/kultur/deutscher-gruss/

Mootros (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"Origins and adoption" needs some copy editing through and liking in the last paragraph in the main narrative. A 5-10% reduction of this section could be considered.

I'd agree with copyediting that still stays close to the sources. I happen to think the length is fine, its the other sections that need expanding--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"From 1933 to 1945" needs a substantial input, especially on the relation to everyday live... the gradual changes/ adoption in the 12 years... the fines, later imprisionment.. counter strategies.. etc.

Would be great. Tillman is a good source--Work permit (talk)

I've just added a couple of paragraphs on "ordinary life."--Work permit (talk) 23:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"Sieg Heil" needs to be made more relevant; this section is very unfocused.

Agree, including its origins, etc. TO be expected since the original "sieg heil" article was badly sourced and not very coherent--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"After 1945" needs to be expanded on the use by neo-Nazis, plus convictions, or attempts to do so.

It's a bit of a slippery slope, how do we distinguish between "neo-fascists" and "neo-nazi's"? There is an article on the roman salute that addresses fascist movements other then the nazis.--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Not sure here. I think roman salute misses the point with the lengthy section "Adoption by Fascists", and even worth "Post-war use". This is a retro-fitting of history (what is "Roman" about this?) By closer examination, perhaps we need to move into the direction of Salute_(Nazi_Germany), Nazi_salute_(Italy). Or move the Italy section in here and make the intro more relevant to this. What do you think? There might than also something which might not fit into such categories: http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20057210.aspx

Also something a bit more straight forward, the recent developments in Switzerland:

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20057210.aspx

Again thanks for your good effort and motivation. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 10:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Mootros (talk) 09:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)