Talk:Neutral Milk Hotel/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

Two comments:

It appears some earlier version of this article was a copyvio from here. Could someone rewrite the offending bits? I'm not sure if it's similar enough to qualify as a copyvio at the moment, since much of it is different.

No other band has so many generic categories (neo-prog, neo-psychedelia), and I would like to replace it with one or two broad categories. How about Category:Indie rock groups?

Tuf-Kat 19:29, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

Response:

Since most of the offending changes are my fault, I'll rewite them as soon as I get the opportunity; I've meant to fix them anyway as they are too close for comfort in some places.

As for the categories... IMHO the term "indie rock" is so broad as to be almost useless for anybody seeking clarification on the subject: it may as well be "Post-WWII Contemporary". Four categories, however, is alot. That could easily be trimmed.

Clockwork Troll 14:09, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The page is more or less entirely copied from the allmusic.com entry (here). Some things get moved around, but a lot of descriptions and details about the history of the band are copied exactly.

I'll delete the text besides the lists and some of the third and fourth paragraph because the part about "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" isn't from anywhere else.

Andrew123 02:12, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Where is

Where is the info about the re-release of On Avery Island with live tracks from? Also, it's past Jan. 2006... --liam 22:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Singular/Plural

Think of it this way: in this context, "Neutral Milk Hotel" is a pronoun that may the place of "Jeremy Barnes, Scott Spillane, Julian Koster and Robert Schneider". Now, you would never, ever say "Jeremy Barnes, Scott Spillane, Julian Koster and Robert Schneider is an American indie rock band" would you? Also, referring to American_and_British_English_differences#Singular_and_plural_for_nouns shows that the plural form is correct in both British and American English - surely it is preferable to be consistent to a greater number of readers? Turkeyphant 13:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be great if logic determined linguistic practice, but it doesn't. I don't know how you get from the American_and_British_English_differences that "NMH are" is correct American English usage. It is 100 percent nonidiomatic and very jarring to American ears, trust me. --Jfruh (talk) 13:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
From the article "British English: The Clash are a well-known band. American English: The Clash is a well-known band. Both: The Beatles are a well-known band." It may be jarring to you but using the singular is both jarring to me and incorrect. Plural forms are always used when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things such as a band. Turkeyphant 13:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is becoming a bit of an annoying conversation, IMO, but "The Beatles are" takes the plural in BritEng because they're a group, but takes the plural in AmEng due to the name of the band being plural. The Beatles are, The Clash is, The Strokes are, R.E.M. is. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What jeff said. You're profoundly missing the point of the example you cite. In American English the form of the noun determines that form that verb agreement will take, in British English the meaning of the noun is the determiner. The word "Beatles" is both plural in form (i.e. one Beatle, two Beatles) and meaning (there are four of them), so it takes a plural verb on both sides of the pond. Nouns that are singular in form always take singular verbs in American English, even if they represent more than one person or thing. Wikipedia practice in a case like this is to follow the nationality of the entity in question, and NMH is an American band, so... --Jfruh (talk) 14:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not read the example carefully enough. However, I take issue with your claim that "Nouns that are singular in form always take singular verbs in American English". Both plural and singular verbs are correct in American English and it is better to use plural as this is understandible by all English speakers. Turkeyphant 14:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia. Please don't be obtuse, by which I mean, not listening to your fellow editors and persisting in believing that you're right and that it's necessary to be "right". NMH is an American topic, and as such should be written in American idiomatic English. We really will not solve the differences in British and American usage here on this Talk page, and if you truly think that your contribution to Wikipedia is making sure that the English that sounds right to you is the one used on all pages, well, good luck. I think your interest would be better placed elsewhere. The only way that "were" would sound correct to Americans would be if their name had been "The Neutral Milk Hotels". Maybe that sounds wrong to you, but surprise! -- your way sounds wrong to us. --Dhartung | Talk 16:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that you are the only one failing to listen to fellow editors. I apologised for my mistake and clarified my objections. It doesn't matter if it sounds wrong - lots of idiomatic expressions sound right but are simply incorrect and do not belong in an encyclopaedia. I will reiterate: Plural forms are always used when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things such as a band. The plural form is correct in both British and American English - surely it is preferable to be consistent to a greater number of readers? Turkeyphant 03:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
No, we shouldn't, because it is wrong. Your claim is incorrect. --Dhartung | Talk 05:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately my claim is backed up by verifiable sources, academics of language and cold facts. When talking about bands the plural form is correct and should be preferred in all cases. This is abundantly clear as Neutral Milk Hotel is an abstract entity - it can't interviewed itself; only its members can. There is a necessary implication that the members of the collective are being talked about so the plural form should be used. Turkeyphant 12:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
If you're going to make claims about verifiable sources, please provide them.
In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole.... It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals.... In British usage, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals. American Heritage Dictionary
Athletic teams and governments are usually treated as plural by the British, both for pronoun reference and subject-verb agreement.... Americans generally use the singular for the verb, but the subsequent pronouns will often be plural. Columbia Guide to Standard American English
When a group is considered as a single unit, its collective noun is used with a singular verb and singular pronouns... But when the focus is on the individual members of the group, British English tends to use a plural verb and plural pronouns with its collective nouns. American English usually uses a singular verb and pronouns in these circumstances. Hutchison Encyclopedia (UK)
I'm sure your sources would be very interesting. As I have said, you are obviously unfamiliar with idiomatic American English, and I understand that you were confused. But Wikipedia has been over this many times and there is a guideline to follow, which is that local idiom is favored. In the United States, we say "Neutral Milk Hotel was a band." --Dhartung | Talk 20:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

"Though there is a certain truth to be had in the notion that one's dreams are only of interest to one's self, Mangum managed to transcend the inherent difficulties of such a personal exploration by employing wildly invigorating and decidedly ambiguous imagery to express his holocaustian dreams of fear and loss under Hitler's blood-soaked iron fist."

This seems like excessive editorializing. Also, the metaphor mixing in the last phrase sort of bothers me -- a metal such as iron cannot absorb a liquid such as blood. "Blood-soaked iron" sounds really weird to me. Acc78 19:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)acc78 May 9 2007

Merging with the Jeff Mangum page

Both articles are kind of a mess and it seems info fromt his apge should be on the ohter page and vice versa. Anyone have an ideas on what we should do? Ridernyc 18:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Repetition

There is mention of Jeff's last gig in Auckland in both the "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea and final show" and in the "Hiatus" section, much of it being repeated. Could someone more experienced deal with that? Hazzjm 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

External link / reference suggestion: Excerpt from NMH 33 1/3 book

As an editor at Crawdaddy!, and to comply with COI guidelines, I am not posting the link to this excerpt we posted (with permission) from Kim Cooper's 33 1/3 book about Neutral Milk Hotel's In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. However, I would like to recommend it as a great potential external link or reference, and hope that an editor will find the time to examine the excerpt and—if he or she sees fit—use it as an external link or reference on this page. I appreciate your time. Crawdaddy! [1]
Mike harkin (talk) 20:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Intro

I don't think the intro should go into, or even necessarily mention all the NMH albums it does. I feel description of those should be saved primarily for the body of the article. Opinions?- (Lewzer99 (talk) 15:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC))

Chris Knox cover

I just added in a part about Mangum's cover of Tall Dwarfs' Sign the Dotted Line. Definatly could use some more info/editing, but at least it's in there. 75.6.233.144 (talk) 07:57, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Name

The origin of this band's name should be explained. Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Good Luck!--71.225.238.113 (talk) 03:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

an indie folk band?

I would think Neutral Milk Hotel is more appropriately classified as "indie rock" or "indie folk rock." Just getting others opinions before I potentially edit that. Lewzer99 (talk) 18:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think indie rock is more appropriate. It is strange to suggest that folk is a greater influence on their music than rock is! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 23:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The folk influence is undeniable but that's merely all it is, just an influence. Indie rock covers the bases just fine, whereas indie folk rock narrows it down much more than it needs to be. —Vanishdoom (talk) 00:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I changed it to indie rock. Lewzer99 (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking that neo-psychedelic should also be removed, since the article had already classified the band as psych-folk.(128.192.236.45 (talk) 15:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC))
I think Neutral Milk Hotel's significance to the Indie Folk scene is much more prominent than their influence in the Indie Rock scene. Much of their music isn't reminiscent of that style of music, nor does it reflect the general ideals of the music itself. I think Indie Rock should be cut out entirely.AlbertWesker1960 (talk) 13:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Doing Major clean up

Man lots to do here, things need to be wikified, things need to be un-wikified (do we really need to wikifi the word lyrics). Trying to make it more neutral. Trying to make the various sections have the same tone. And adding a ton of vitation needed tags. Lets work on getting some sources in this article. Ridernyc 17:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm worried about the use of the word 'moniker' (3 instances). I too take offence at the gratuitous use of wikification links, but if we have to use that idiomatic expression at all, it should be wikified. Better still remove it altogether.Julesomega (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Colbert

It would need sourcing, but the band just got a ton of publicity from the Colbert Show finale and it would be interesting to know if there was a bump in interest or sales; also, apparently it was longstanding practice to play "Holland, 1945", during tapings of the show in the off-air segments. — LlywelynII 03:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

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Will Grayson, Will Grayson

Hey, I was just wondering if somebody could add information about the book Will Grayson, Will Grayson. The book makes a lot of references to the band. Thanks! Brodyargo (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:53, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

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GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Neutral Milk Hotel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bilorv (talk · contribs) 00:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Should be a pleasure to learn more about the band behind In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. The references section looks excellent and I see the article is drawing from the hard work done on the Aeroplane article (or vice versa). Coverage looks sufficiently broad for GA. I'm aiming to make the majority of comments by the end of the week. — Bilorv (talk) 00:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Strike through or reply to as you want. These are all my comments, roughly by section but some might be out of order or misplaced. If you disagree with any, let me know what your thoughts are.

Infobox

  • Infobox: "Labels" – Domino and Fire aren't mentioned in prose, but they should be even if it's just a change "was released" to "was released by X" or "was released on X's roster" or whatever.
  • While we're talking about labels, I was confused by what Elephant 6 was until reading Elephant 6, whereas it should be clear if you read this article standalone. It's first mentioned with "... would eventually lead to the formation of the Elephant 6 music collective" and next with "where a large group of Elephant 6 musicians were living". Somewhere, NMH's creation of and involvement within Elephant 6 should be covered under "History". How did the collective get new groups involved (NMH members working in other bands, touring together or just involvement in the same genres)? How did it come to be that lots of the people were based in Athens?
So NMH wasn't the direct start of Elephant 6, it was just one of the three originating bands from the collective. The reason NMH was considered an Elephant 6 band was because of Mangum's association and because the Elephant 6 logo was affixed to the albums. As for why Athens became a hub city, well it seems to have been coincidence. Cooper notes in her book how Athens just so happened to be the center for the collective, like how grunge seemingly exploded in the Seattle area.
  • Infobox: "Associated acts" – Every act added to this list dilutes the important information. Just limit it to the ones which members of NMH were really involved with: those look like The Apples in Stereo, The Music Tapes, The Gerbils, and A Hawk and a Hacksaw. If not, pick three or four of the most significant acts and make sure they're mentioned in the article prose.

History

  • I think "t-shirt" should have a capital "T".
  • After learning that Mangum released "Everything Is", a song that McPherson loved – I was confused when I read this whether McPherson already loved the song, or listened to it and loved it. The source presents it a bit differently: I told him that I had been trying to get in touch with him because I was really into [...] "Everything Is". I think we should reword to make it clear that McPherson was already interested in meeting the person behind "Everything Is".
  • legal agreement ... legal representative – Repetitive, so the first "legal" can be omitted.
  • another song "Ruby Bulbs" – needs commas or dashes.
  • It's good to have these critics' opinions inline, but it's better to paraphrase and combine where possible, and use only the snippets you need to convey the critics' overall reception. I'd recommend: ... positive reviews from critics, who characterised the music as lo-fi pop. Kurt Wolff of the Houston Chronicle described listening to the music as "a trippy experience", finding it "a fresh exciting standout". The British publication NME wrote: "..."
  • Pazz & Jop poll – Probably worth saying "The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop poll", as I recognise TVV but not the poll name.
  • These initial projections were correct, as the album sold moderately well for the first few months – Any numbers? I'd like a comparison to the 5000 of Avery Island if possible. I notice the discography has a source for ~400,000 sales, presumably as of recently, which I think is worth mentioning somewhere (perhaps alongside the 140K figure).
So the highest number I could find from a reliable source was 393,000. But since the sentence you mention is in relation to the history section, I tried to keep it inline with the initial sales, which sadly I could not find an exact number for. I mention the 140,000 copies in the roughly the same corresponding section.
I see. Can we mention 393,000 in Legacy then? — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • In the Aeroplane Over the Sea received positive reviews from critics – This isn't what the source says, really. AVClub summarise reception as: decent, plainspoken reviews ... distant praise, hedged bets, avoiding the heart at all cost. This matches what the Aeroplane article says in both lead and body as well.
How does it look now?
Yep, that's better. — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • to afford the band members to move to Athens – Think this would be more natural as for the band members to afford to move to Athens.
  • Ironically enough – I'm not sure that this technically is irony. The sentence would work without these words.
  • became common fixtures on online message boards – This is the only coverage issue I have. I want to know more about this, and this must be the right article for it. I want to know names/details about the message boards and the rough time period over which this happened, at least. When the Aeroplane tour began and ended would be good to spell out in the appropriate History sections. Ideally I'd like a little more about the kind of tone of the message board content, or how news spread.
So unfortunately, there really isn't a better answer than just general message boards. The source I use states "Unintentionally, they timed their disbandment with the rise of music-forum discussions, Pitchfork's holy grail perfect-score verdicts and the internet's tendency to give hearsay a bigger platform than concrete facts." I'd assume these early discussions took place on something like Usenet, but I can't find any source that delves into this period in greater detail.
Now with that said, Cooper does mention in her book a number of Neutral Milk Hotel fansites that cater to really passionate fans, but she notes that these websites were formed in the mid-2000s, well after the band's breakup. This is the closest amount of detail I can find on the subject. There is also BLZ's incredibly detailed history lesson about the band's rise to cult status, which may answer some of your questions. Unfortunately it is original research.
Okay, thanks for the detailed reply on this one. There isn't a coverage issue if there aren't good enough sources with more detail, but I do find this background interesting. — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • having to constantly explain his lyrics – To journalists or fans?

Artistry

  • best and most fully developed album – Well, there's only two of them. Would the statement still be true if we replaced "album" with "work"/"release"?
  • The musical tempo sometimes abruptly shift from track to track – I can't find this in the Rolling Stone source it's cited to.
Replaced with a source that describes the tempo and expanded upon the tempo statement just a little
  • In the DeVille quote, I think everyone bashing away with such rudimental force that the songs seemed ready to topple over at any moment can be cut – "haphazard grace" is plenty to convey DeVille's point here.
  • forming a tribute band – Plural for consistency.
  • Mangum resurfaced in 2010 with a few solo shows – What did he play? NMH stuff or solo stuff? Whichever, specify in the article as much as possible.
The source doesn't say, although it's safe to assume it's mostly NMH stuff. Mangum doesn't really have a lot of publicly available songs that weren't recorded for NMH.
  • Richardson says the imagery presented in In the Aeroplane Over the Sea is written with childlike wonder, in which mundane interactions are illustrated as fantastical moments – I think we can cut the description after "childlike wonder", but this comment reminded me of the significance of Anne Frank, which I think surely warrants a mention (maybe describing the range of critics' interpretations of how much of Aeroplane is about Frank).
Expanded on the Anne Frank connection.
  • The equipment used onstage was cheap and broken – "Broken" how exactly? Not beyond usable, I guess. Or broken and so it produced a different lo-fi sort of sound?
Surprisingly yes, sometimes the equipment was just straight up broken! This was probably because the band members were usually high before going into a concert so when they were moving equipment, they were prone to drop it. With that said though, more often than not it was just cheap and of poor quality, which I changed to fit in accordance with the source.

Legacy onwards

  • Among the more notable groups influenced – Per WP:NOTED, we can just say "Groups influenced include". As for the longer list of groups, I checked the Kesha source and the NMH influence is really cherry-picked here, a mention among dozens (hundreds?) of artists mentioned on her MySpace in 2008 is trivia rather than important music history. I suggest going through the other sources and leaving in only groups who would list NMH almost immediately if you asked them about their influences – I'll check the ones that remain and see what I think of them.
So I agree with you on the Kesha thing. Another user comes around this article every now and again and drops in a new band/singer that was influenced by Neutral Milk Hotel, and while most of the additions directly state Neutral Milk Hotel was a major influence for them, the Kesha one doesn't.
There are some other influences issues:
  • The article also says Arcade Fire frontman Win Butler also said In the Aeroplane Over the Sea was the primary reason the band signed with Merge Records. The source says: Merge was a label that, I don't know... I don't listen to indie rock very much, but one of them I like is the Magnetic Fields. Their songs are as good as any other good songs, independent label or not. I feel the same way about that Neutral Milk Hotel record, you know? It's as good as anything. And there's other stuff on Merge that I felt that way about, too, and so that was really attractive to me. I notice that DeVille 2018 also says [Arcade Fire] signed to Merge partly because of their devotion to Aeroplane, but just cites the previous source for this. So definitely "primary reason" is not correct. "One reason" or "a contributing factor" is the most we could say, but omitting the sentence fully would be fine too as Arcade Fire are already given a fair bit of weight in the previous sentence.
  • as well as singers Dan Snaith, Tim Kasher — The source has both talking about Aeroplane but neither actually saying that NMH were an influence on their own music (particularly dubious in the case of Kasher).
  • Amanda Palmer — Source doesn't say anything about influence. That record was always really important to us is not such a statement.
— Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I know this might be an annoying one, but I'd like some sources for "Members" in regards to the instruments that each person played. Liner notes from albums/releases would work, for instance.
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Discographies, I think we need all their releases (there's not too many) mentioned in discography, separated by type.

Lead

  • In the lead, I think it's worth explaining "lo-fi" as it's not hard to describe but it's a bit of a technical term. I'd also like a mention that the band use unusual instruments.
How does it look now?
Much better, thanks. — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • In the lead, "and as one of" should be "and one of", I think (as in "Several music outlets ... called In the Aeroplane Over the Sea ... one of the ...").
  • The infobox image can be cropped at the top and bottom to leave just the bit with the band, I think. However, it'll still be quite small in the infobox because it's very wide. I wonder if File:Neutral Milk Hotel live at Celebrate Brooklyn.PNG would be good for the infobox and then we could optionally use the current infobox image in the body, maybe at the top of a section (e.g. "Live performances") above the text, so it can take up more width. (If this were FA, I might ask you to look at Flickr or another source of CC-compatible images because I bet there's more images of the band performing out there.)
Replaced the lede image with the one you suggested. As for other photos, unfortunately I can't seem to find any other free photos online. If I ever do try and bring this to FAC, I'll try my hand at convincing someone to freely licence their photo, but for now I think it's fine.
Yep, absolutely fine for now. — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Overall

Other than the above, I've got no issues with breadth or prose. No neutrality or stability issues. Good use of free images and the timeline for members' tenures. I'll be doing a bit more spotchecking of the sources which I can access, as most spotchecks were fine but a couple of the points above were raised from finding prose that doesn't quite match the sources. Formally, putting this  On hold, but as long as there's meaningful progress within a week I'll be happy to continue. — Bilorv (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bilorv: Hi there! Thank you for taking up the review. I'll be a bit preoccupied for the next few days but I should be able to address these issues sometime this week. Famous Hobo (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@Famous Hobo: No worries. Happy to be flexible if you're busy, as long as you keep me updated. — Bilorv (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@Famous Hobo: the changes and comments so far look good—any timeline on crossing off the rest of the comments? — Bilorv (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
@Famous Hobo: I will give this one more week, but after that I'll need to close the review. — Bilorv (talk) 13:08, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Bilorv: Sorry about the delay, I was having a bit too much fun during winter break. I believe I have addressed your comments. Famous Hobo (talk) 23:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Appreciate it, mostly there now. One point about the 393,000 and a couple about the influences. Did a few spotchecks and didn't find any issues, so just these quick fixes left. — Bilorv (talk) 11:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I've just made these changes myself and I'm now happy that the article meets GA standards, so it's a pass. Cheers! — Bilorv (talk) 12:43, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
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