Talk:Nizamuddin Markaz Mosque

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Nizamuddin faction[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AaqibAnjum, I don't think the idea of a "Nizamuddin faction" is that well-settled as to make it into the lead. For example, a scholarly source states:

Tablighi interviewees denied Raiwind's elevation over Nizamuddin, commenting that Nizamuddin always has been and will be the most important Tablighi center.[1]

The factionalism seems to be a recent development, perhaps 2016 onwards, and we have no idea what will happen in future. The current crisis is likely to weaken Maulana Saad and he might accept compromises more readily than he had in the past. We shouldn't bend to WP:RECENTISM. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:34, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Pieri, Z. (2015), Tablighi Jamaat and the Quest for the London Mega Mosque: Continuity and Change, Springer, pp. 65–66, ISBN 978-1-137-46439-2
@Kautilya3:, thanks for that. But I don't think that it can count for that much recentism. The later leadership gave him attention of Darul Uloom Deoband, adding Darul Uloom's complete fatwa would be WP:Attack. See for examaple for faction, Times of India, Business Today, good part by Outlook, TheNews Pk and other reports are maybe enough to support its usage in the lead. If you think lead isn't right, would the History section be better for it? Regards - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 01:31, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Markaz is a hundred year-old institution. The "faction" is only two years old. Trying to define the Markaz in terms of the two-year old phenomenon is certainly RECENTISM. For a newspaper, perhaps two years is an eternity. But not for us.
I also wonder how much the India-Pakistan rivalry affects the Nizamuddin-Raiwind rivalry, especially considering the fact that the Raiwind Markaz is indeed politicised unlike the Nizamuddin Markaz. As they say, the organisation got split "vertically". The significance of the split can only be determined in the long term based on who many adherents each group is able to retain.
What does the Deoband fatwa say? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 06:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the English translation of Deobands last fatwa. Anyways, if the faction may be WP:RECENTISM per you, where should we give its place in Muhammad Saad Kandhlawi, Tablighi Jamaat and other due related articles, as the leadership is concerned it is completely different issue. The split of the two groups was solely because of the leadership issues, where even Muhammad Abdul Wahhab, former TJ amir of Pakistan made negative comments about Kandhlawi. Letters of other TJ leaders like Mawlana Ebrahim Dewla, an elderly figure of TJ in India — mention that a number of strategies were followed to reconcile, but Kandhlawi did not accepted— the result being almost all the TJ leaders from Nizamuddin left, and formed another markaz in Maharashtra. And calling it India-Pakistan rivalry is not the right thing. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 08:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest adding a History section, which covers the role played by this Markaz in the entire Tablighi Jamaat movement, and add, at the end, the recent disputes that have arisen. We also need better sources for the "factionalism" than the newspaper reports during a crisis. Is Nerul leading the other faction or Raiwind? Or, are they two different factions? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Faizan Mustafa [1] seems to regard Deobandi as a "sect", TJ as a "subsect", and refers to "groups" within. But he seems to acknowledge the international primacy of the Nizamuddin Markaz. He doesn't use terms like "faction". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As far as Raiwand Markaz is concerned, right before the division of TJ to two; it was not that much primary as much Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin Markaz has always remained the top markaz of TJ, then Raiwand, finally the Kakrail Markaz of Bangladesh. After the division, the TJ split into two groups (say ideologies for ease), one following Mawlana Saad and the other following likes of Zuhair ul Hasan Kandhlawi [1]. This would let the first group to regard Nizamuddin as international HQ for their faction, and later one to develop a new markaz in Nerul, regarding it as the aalmi shura markaz. Coming to Faizan Mustafa's statement, TJ is a reformist sub-movement of the Deobandi-movement. I won't go for calling these sects and sub sects. This [2] from Muhammad Taqi Usmani may help for this.- Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 11:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nerul and Raiwand follow the same shura faction, as can be seen through these letters [3] , a few being signed by Haaji Abdul Wahhab. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 12:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. You know this stuff a lot more than I do. So, please add a history section and cover this, as well as, older history as best as you can gather. Just saying "Nizamuddin faction" in the lead without any explanation of what that means isn't any good. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 17:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Going to do this by morning. Peace. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 19:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It needs more work, but I can get to it later.
Note that your source Abdus Sattar Ghazali makes clear that the real friction is between Nizamuddin and Raiwind. There is no mention of Nerul. It is just a decoy. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:08, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just checked it, though I had referenced the other issue from there, I have tried to fix it. Moreover, this [4] uses Aalmi Shura for the other group, so it is not necessary to say that Raiwand issue be brought there. The main issue being the Leadership of Maulana Saad and the shura, who call themselves Aalmi Shura of TJ, even Tariq Jamil is in the favor of shura group - I fail to ascertain Raiwand or Nerul as their main headquarter, but per usage Raiwand Markaz does not use Aalmi with it, but the Nerul one does. This [5], Sirf News report says that pro-shoora is headquartered in Nerul and other markaz in Delhi. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 19:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Finding some offline sources to make some certainty. Best. Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kautilya3, thanks for expanding the history section. You deserve very much thanks, but there is a minor probem, as you stated It is governed by a shura consisting of 13 members including Muhammad Abdul Wahhab of Raiwind. But Abdul Wahhab is no more, he died a a year or two back. Please fix it accordingly. Regards - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 08:19, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ The Muslim 500, 2020
  2. ^ Return to the Track of Deoband
  3. ^ DAA'WAH TABLIGH SHURA ELDERS
  4. ^ "Grand Mufti of Pakistan Sheikh Mufti Rafi Usmani attends Historical UK ijtema Blackburn 2019".
  5. ^ "Tablighi Jamaat mafia roams south Asia freely: Exclusive". 3 April 2020.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Markaz nizamuddin kab talim 103.70.42.110 (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Markaz nizamuddin kab talim 103.70.42.110 (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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