Talk:North Korean defectors

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abbynlew (article contribs).

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 September 2020 and 25 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JeeaYang.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AVM SIB. Peer reviewers: Mbmorley, Bcstell, Rusty shackleford.

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Seoteomin[edit]

Anyone know the hanja for the above term? Just curious.Phonemonkey 23:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could have simply clicked at the wiktionary links I have put in each component. Only min is Sino-Korean. Wikipeditor 10:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, Ok. I just checked the wikitionary link though, but what does the first bit literally mean? Thanks. Phonemonkey 00:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I understand, seo and teo(-jeon) literally mean “new” and “place”, respectively. Wikipeditor 13:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Saeteomin was coined by South Korean Government in 2005 to replace 'Talbukja', or North Korean defector, which was presumably known to have a negative connotation over North Korean defectors in South Korea. The first two charactors of Saeteomin can not put in Chinese. Saeteomin can be literally translated into 'people of new place.' More specifically, Saeteomin are people who has successfully entered South Korea, not North Korean defectors in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.128.67.18 (talk) 02:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saeteomin vs Talbukja[edit]

Can someone please explain what exactly these terms mean, so us monolingual types can understand why f'rinstance the North Koreans would object to the latter? --SigPig |SEND - OVER 14:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Sorry, I should have done that in the first place. Wikipeditor 13:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

defectors to north korea[edit]

why isn't there an article or link on defectors to north korea?many koreans defected to the north in the late 1940s and early 50s as they were either expelled by the americans/synghman rhee or to escape persecution as they were communists. There are also Americans who defected to north korea, and one, in particular, still lives there, and has a korean family.

http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2008020401

is it because wikipedia is choosing to hide facts in order to put forward a point of view?219.77.8.142 (talk) 06:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Defectors versus refugees versus economic migrants[edit]

I think that there must be a distinction made between the term "defector" as someone who disavows allegiance (the standard dictionary definition) to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and thereby chooses residence in another country versus "refugee" and "economic migrant."

"Defection" to the People's Republic of China thereby does not make much sense since the two countries, PRC and DPRK, have diplomatic ties and economic and political systems that are very similar- ostensible commitments to socialism, one-party political leadership, and representation through democratic centralist structures. In the case of those who have left the DPRK for PRC, it appears that "economic migrant" is more accurate, since actual defector testimonies of people who live in northeast China or who have moved to South Korea from China stated that it was for the economic opportunity China posed. This is not to say that once you leave the DPRK you are not considered a defector by DPRK, but rather to make sure that we are not using a term that is so political and ideological in nature for an act that is otherwise considered migration in any other context.

In many cases, there are people from the DPRK who engage in cyclical migration between the DPRK and China who have not necessarily disavowed their allegiance to the DPRK but are economic migrants or economic refugees - and there are numerous testimonies that show people migrated, especially young people, in search of a better life, or in order to seek what they see on media about China or South Korea, because the DPRK cannot provide these same opportunities for them. Some migrants do believe the DPRK needs systemic change; some are in the process of learning about the difference between systems, both ideological and substantive, and others hope to return to the DPRK.

There is no doubt that the economic situation of the DPRK is dire, or that some of those who leave the DPRK are also political refugees, especially those who formerly had high positions within the DPRK administrative bodies.

But if you trace the history of the term "defector", especially as it was used by the Republic of Korea, as well as acknowledge that those who leave the DPRK and settle in the South must, by law and in order to receive benefits, disavow allegiance to the DPRK, there is a fine line between voluntary 'defection' and the act of disavowing in order to survive in countries hostile to or not on friendly terms with the DPRK.

I also am not sure how to do this yet, but for the record, numerous sections in the wiki article need citations. Owl33 (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why defectors - why don't you call them simply refugees? Did they not escape from a country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.115.98 (talk) 15:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right, guys. Defector is different from refugee: "defector - a person who abandons their duty (as on a military post)" Călușaru' (talk) 22:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A North Korean citizen is under a duty to remain in the country, so being an economic migrant or becoming a refugee is defection. User:Fred Bauder Talk 20:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This reminds me of the Greek film Dogtooth. The article is in English, not in "North-Korean". And I didn't find your explanation above in the article. You know, people who got away from Romania before 1989 were considered traitors, but one wouldn't name "Traitors" an article about Romanian refugees, would he? We also had defectors, like Pacepa, and we couldn't name them simply "refugees", could we? Călușaru' (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the difference is this: if someone leaves the DPRK, they are generally not a refugee under international law, because they are automatically a citizen of the ROK. Therefore, they do not need to claim refugee anywhere, or prove a well-founded fear of persecution, but to get to South Korea, and that's a practical problem, not a legal problem.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of sources[edit]

Here are a couple of sources about refugees in China. Not sure if they are linked or used in the article. [1][2] I would love to write an article just on North Korean refugees in China, but I just don't spend enough time working on WP anymore. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About Hwang Jang-yop's defection[edit]

The introduction paragraph in this article mentions a few things including the famous defection of KPAF pilot, No Kum-sok. But how about editors consider adding ex-NK premier, Hwang Jang-yop's defection which is very famous and high profile too? It could add some seasoning on the introduction since the defection happened in less than two decades ago comparing to No's defection which happened nearly five decades ago. Thanks. 125.161.146.214 (talk) 09:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Psychological/cultural adjustment[edit]

Would it be appropriate to have some sort of section in this article, or a similar article, about the adjustment that N. Koreans go through when they begin assimilation into their new countries? Dudanotak (talk) 06:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"China Ends Repatriation of North Korean Refugees"[edit]

This is something great to add. Hopefully they still aren't repatriating them to this day either!

See this article, and add this extra info to our article somehow. Thanks. --129.130.18.100 (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New N. Korean Defectors in S. Korea page[edit]

The amount of information on the fate of refugees in S. Korea is totally disproportionate to the other countries listed. It also differs in kind, not just degree, with the amount of programs in place there for N. Korean refugees. Finally, there's already a page on N. Koreans living in S. Korea. Should perhaps there be a dedicated page to N. Korean defectors in S. Korea that would present all this information in a better manner? Korossyl (talk) 03:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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heavily guarded border to mainland China[edit]

> North Koreans escape every day across the heavily guarded border to mainland China

To call that border heavy guarded is quite an overestimation... Read the Tumen river article on the wiki, it says the truth, i was there and saw that river, it's almost not patrolled at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.34.16.108 (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

China–North Korea border makes the same point. Neither the Yalu or the Tumen are heavily guarded. It's just an assumption that they ought to be. That sentence was tagged "citation needed" since January. I've now removed it. I've also removed the following sentence which said that defectors faced execution on return home. There was no citation for that, and it appears false.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]


"Psychological/Cultural Adjustment" Section Addition[edit]

There has been an idea of addition of a mental/physical health and cultural adjustment related section to the article. So I am following up on that suggestion and am going to add this section. I think it is an important issue nowadays, especially, considering that it is something that becomes more and more evident. Here is the list of possible bibliographical sources. Please have a look and let me know if you have any suggestions or recommendations. Thanks!

1. Bidet, Eric. "Social capital and work integration of migrants: The case of North Korean defectors in South Korea." Asian Perspective 33, no. 2 (2009): 151-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/42704676.
2. Chang, Yoonok, Stephan M. Haggard, and Marcus Noland. "Migration Experiences of North Korean Refugees: Survey Evidence from China." SSRN Electronic Journal. doi:10.2139/ssrn.1106323.

Choi, Seul Ki, Sang Min Park, and Hyojee Joung. "Still life with less: North Korean young adult defectors in South Korea show continued poor nutrition and physique." Nutrition Research and Practice 4, no. 2 (2010): 136. doi:10.4162/nrp.2010.4.2.136.

3. Choo, H. Y. "Gendered Modernity and Ethnicized Citizenship: North Korean Settlers in Contemporary South Korea." Gender & Society 20, no. 5 (2006): 576-604. doi:10.1177/0891243206291412.
4. Chung, Byung-Ho. "Between Defector and Migrant: Identities and Strategies of North Koreans in South Korea." Korean Studies 32, no. 1 (2008): 1-27. doi:10.1353/ks.0.0002.
5. Davis, Kathleen. "Brides, Bruises and the Border: The Trafficking of North Korean Women into China." SAIS Review 26, no. 1 (2006): 131-41. doi:10.1353/sais.2006.0004.
6. Haggard, Stephan, and Marcus Noland. "The North Korean Refugee Crisis: Human Rights and International Response." 1-76. doi:ISBN 0-9771-1111-3.
7. Jeon, Bong-Hee, Moon-Doo Kim, Seong-Chul Hong, Na-Ri Kim, Chang-In Lee, Young-Sook Kwak, Joon-Hyuk Park, Jaehwan Chung, Hanul Chong, Eun-Kyung Jwa, Min-Ho Bae, Sanghee Kim, Bora Yoo, Jun-Hwa Lee, Mi-Yeul Hyun, Mi-Jeong Yang, and Duk-Soo Kim. "Prevalence and Correlates of Depressive Symptoms among North Korean Defectors Living in South Korea for More than One Year."Psychiatry Investigation 6, no. 3 (2009): 122. doi:10.4306/pi.2009.6.3.122.
8. Jeon, Woo-Teak, Shi-Eun Yu, Young-A Cho, and Jin-Sup Eom. "Traumatic Experiences and Mental Health of North Korean Refugees in South Korea."Psychiatry Investigation 5, no. 4 (2008): 213. doi:10.4306/pi.2008.5.4.213.
9. Kim, Jih-Un, and Dong-Jin Jang. "Aliens among brothers? The status and perception of North Korean refugees in South Korea." Asian Perspective 31, no. 2 (2007): 5-22. http://www.jstor.org/stable/42704587.
10. Kim, Mike. Escaping North Korea: defiance and hope in the world's most repressive country. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield Pub., 2008.
11. Lankov, Andrei. "Bitter Taste of Paradise: North Korean Refugees in South Korea." Journal of East Asian Studies 6, no. 01 (2006): 105-37. doi:10.1017/s1598240800000059.
12. Lankov, Andrei. "North Korean Refugees in Northeast China." Asian Survey 44, no. 6 (2004): 856-73. doi:10.1525/as.2004.44.6.856.
13. Lee, Yunhwan, Myung Ken Lee, Ki Hong Chun, Yeon Kyung Lee, and Soo Jin Yoon. "Trauma experience of North Korean refugees in China." American Journal of Preventive Medicine 20, no. 3 (2001): 225-29. doi:10.1016/s0749-3797(00)00282-8.
14. Margesson, Rhoda, Emma Chanlett-Avery, and Andorra Bruno. "North Korean refugees in China and human rights issues: International response and US policy options." Congressional rept., September 26, 2007, 1-42. ADA473619.
15. Min, Pyong Gap. "The Structure and Social Functions of Korean Immigrant Churches in the United States." International Migration Review 26, no. 4 (1992): 1370. doi:10.2307/2546887.
16. Nanto, Dick K., and Mark E. Manyin. "China–North Korea Relations." North Korean Review 7, no. 2 (2011): 94-101. doi:10.3172/nkr.7.2.94.
17. Wu, Anne. "What china whispers to North Korea." The Washington Quarterly 28, no. 2 (2005): 35-48. doi:10.1162/0163660053295239.
18. YOON, IN-JIN. "North korean diaspora: north korean defectors abroad and in South Korea." Development and Society 30, no. 1 (June 2001): 1-26. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.558.2070&rep=rep1&type=pdf.
 --AVM SIB (talk)

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Demographics[edit]

I have removed this from the article:

Starting from 2008, especially after the Kim Jong-un regime in 2011, the number of North Korean defectors fell between 20,000 and 40,000.[1]

This doesn't make sense. The number of defectors fell over what period? It's too high to be a yearly figure. The article [3] doesn't mention this figure as far as I can see, and since it was published in 2008, it can hardly be source for what has happened since then. I think it is true that numbers of defectors have fallen, but this is muddled.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ Yoonok Chang, Stephan Haggard, and Marcus Noland, (March 2008). Migration Experiences of North Korean Refugees: Survey Evidence from China. Peterson Institute for International Economics, Working Paper Series. Retrieved 26 September 2016.

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Lead - destruction of three generations[edit]

I have removed this:

This included requiring families that live near the border areas to take turns standing guard, having strong official warnings that three generations of a family would be destroyed if caught defecting, as well as having the defector being executed on-site. The number of North Korean defectors has dramatically decreased as a result.

It has been tagged "citation needed" since December, and doesn't reflect anything in the body of the article. I think claims like this desperately need citations, especially since we have cases of double defectors, which suggests the retribution is not that severe.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article Evaluation[edit]

I wanted to write a quick evaluation on this article. I found that the leading section made for a succinct and effective introduction to the topic of defectors. Although, for such a broad article, the introduction could also touch a bit on the common countries that the defectors head to. While I noticed that China had been mentioned quite a bit in the introduction, since China also holds another section in the article, maybe some of that information could be moved there. The structure is quite clear. There are relevant heading and subheadings that allow me to follow the different paths that the defectors take as well as how they adjust in the different countries. There is good balance to the article especially with South Korea and China given more weight. I believe that international response might need more information and split into different country's responses as well because different countries have different relationships with North Korea. The coverage is quite neutral. I don't see any biases towards this topic. While the references are quite reputable, I believe there should be a bit more references especially to some sentences that do not have a footnote. These are just some of my suggestion! Thank you. Atsang99 (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Russia[edit]

The article says:

A study by Kyung Hee University estimated that roughly 10,000 North Koreans live in the Russian Far East; many are escapees from North Korean work camps there.[1] ... As of 1999, there were estimated to be only between 100 and 500 North Korean refugees in the area.[2]

There is a major discrepancy between 10,000 and 100-500. I can't see that Lee's article actually says there are 10,000 North Koreans in the Russian Far East. It says that 10,000 Koreans migrated from Sakhalin Island to Russia. Am I missing something?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lee, Jeanyoung. "Ethnic Korean Migration in Northeast Asia" (PDF). Kyunghee University. Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 December 2011. Retrieved 27 November 2006. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  2. ^ "North Korean refugees in Trouble". The Chosun Ilbo. 13 December 1999. Archived from the original on 9 February 2005. Retrieved 1 June 2007.

Disputing a Sentence possibly citing an unreliable source[edit]

"Defectors who are willing to condemn the north and are able to provide information that is helpful to the United States and South Korean forces are offered ₩1,000,000,000 (equivalent to approximately $870,000 USD)"

I argue this line is unreliable, the original souce is written by an Australian Marxist, and the book itself doesn't explicitly cite where they get this information from. The only clue it gives is to Beal, Tim. 2005. North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power. London: Pluto.


The source has this:

Christian communism has appeared elsewhere in Asia, most notably Minjung

theology in South Korea (Kim and Ho 2013). But I am more interested in a

part of Asia about which there is much speculation, misinformation and

precious little realistic and reliable information: The Democratic People’s

Republic of Korea (dprk), or ‘North Korea’ as it is unofficially called. Some

have hypothesised that religion does not exist in the dprk, since the state is

atheistic and religious people have been suppressed and eliminated (Kong 1974;

Worden 2008, 115–16; Havet and Gaudreau 2010). These accounts usually rely on

the unverified hearsay of ‘defectors’, even though anyone who leaves the north

and is willing to condemn the government is offered one billion won (usd

$870,000) for doing so, as long as they provide information that is helpful to the

United States and South Korean forces.1

  1. For a timely caution against the nature and use of such ‘evidence’ as well as motivations by the United States and other countries, see Beal’s careful study (2005, 129–66).


I could not verify where Beal 2005 mentions this, thus I consider the original source unreliable. AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 08:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ideological/national basis of sources (in this case, "Australian Marxist") is not really germane to reasonable sources. The policy essentially recognizes that every source has some form of perspective.
That being said, here's a BBC source that discusses the $870,000 payment for defectors but frames it as providing "useful information for security" instead of "willing to condemn." Let's see if anyone else has a perspective to share on the talk page, but I have no objection if you want to switch it to the BBC source. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another source we could incorporate (this is before the pay increased to $840,000) which talks about hourly fees paid to defectors. As of May 2014, South Korean government fees paid to defectors ranged from $50 to $500 per hour of interviews, depending on quality of information. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I objected to the use of this source primarily because it was contained in a book about Christian Communism, not specifically about NK, and the source it links that supposedly had the information did not mention this. I suggest using neutral wording, something like “provide confidential information to the US and ROK” and switch to the BBC Source. AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 13:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is from the chapter specifically about North Korea and Cheondoism. JArthur1984 (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not my point, It still doesn't change that the original author did not do his due diligence of proper citation. Can we get this over with and replace the source and rewrite it with more neutral wording? AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, to rewrite is fine. There's no need to be bristle. This is now the third time you've said something as though it mattered toward the analysis, but then receded when shown why it's not relevant to the analysis ("leftist publisher about Christian Socialism" "Australian Marxist" "Christian Communism"). If you don't think points like that matter, you don't need to bring them up on Talk pages. It invites a response. JArthur1984 (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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