Talk:Nudity/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

Lead image

To be honest, I think I prefered the previous lead image Image:Artful nude.jpg to the current Image:Frau.jpg.

Its not a clear choice however; the first more tasteful, but is smaller and from www.sxc.hu (there have been some recent concerns over the blanket license on www.sxc.hu which would exclude Wikipedia unless the contributor has made an explicit license statement - it is possible that the default 'There are no usage restrictions for this photo' doesn't amount to public domain and leaves the site's standard reuse restrictions in place.) The second is larger, by a Wikipedian, has an explicit license and is perhaps less pretentious. -- Solipsist 19:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why not a photo with a nude man as well? Nudity isn't limited to women (though you'd be hard pressed to prove otherwise online). —tregoweth 21:11, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
I'm all for male nudity :)~, but the Gerome painting elsewhere in the article shows an example of that, and as you point out, depiction of female nudity is more typical. A photograph including both male and female nudes would probably tread too close to porn for many people. For the record, I prefer the previous image as well, but have no objection to the current one. Tverbeek 03:07, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, I've just noticed there a recent RfC over the choice of nude images on woman. The picture Image:Frau.jpg seems to have been part of the original problem over there. However, they also have Image:Erleuchtung.jpg which is rather good, and part of the Pioneer plaque which might kill two birds with one stone since the full plaque includes a male nude. -- Solipsist 10:23, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Image:Frau.jpg seems to be a problem wherever it's added—it doesn't help that a few users really really want to add it to some article (see Talk:Breast and Talk:Teat). —tregoweth 19:42, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
User:Duncharris removed with the comment "(picture of fat woman is horrible)". She's mature, only somewhat plump, rather pretty and very curvy, so this appears to be a matter of taste, doesn't it? Lets find a picture we can agree upon that illustrates the point without being pretentious or contentious. Any suggestions? Leonard G. 00:16, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
ASCII art? Stick figures? :) —tregoweth 01:53, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
As I said, Image:Erleuchtung.jpg is probably worth a shot. Also surely the Swedish or Danish Wiki has a photo of a couple at nudist camp or somewhere. -- Solipsist 21:27, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

New vote option...

...added to Wikipedia:Graphic and potentially disturbing images. All those who think we shouldn't be creating blanket rules for censorship of Wikipedia, feel free to vote with me. — マイケル ₪ 03:12, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Full frontal nudity discussion

Hi: Wikipedia is beginning to be peppered with photos that belong in "Playboy" etc. No moral person can accept the possible consequences of this development. Please express your views at: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Nudity (full frontal) pictures in an encyclopedia? [1] Thank you for giving this matter your serious attention! IZAK 13:00, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Picture choice

Though I really don't mind- only females are depicted in all of the pictures. This detail popped into my head while reading and sort of distracted me from the purpose of the article... anyone else feel the same?

Um, the ghost of the male model who posed for the Gerome painting wants to have a word with you, outside. :) I do agree it would be appropriate to replace one of the female nude photos with a tasteful male nude photo that's relevant to the text. Tverbeek 13:15, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Both males and females prefer images of nude females on average, so thats probably why. I'll ad thumb|200px|Michelangelo's David

Cheers, Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 13:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

there should be an equal amount of pictures of men and women, why are nearly all the pictures of women? what about equal oppertunities......

Commented out problematic statement re European nudity

I commented out this section because I'm European and I don't know what it's on about. "Nudity in a sexual but non-pornographic context, however, has in many European countries remained on the fringe of what is socially acceptable for public shows, although this situation has been liberalized during the 20th century." Anybody know? A source would be good. Maybe it's just a matter of poor wording. An interpretation (into European English, perhaps?) would be helpful. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:17, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Movies

The article says:

Noteworthy films which garnered controversy at the time of their release due to nudity include:

Well I've seen most of these movies. They contained nudity, some of them (not so sure they all contained significant nudity). I just don't recall, for instance, "Basic Instinct" being controversial for nudity. Much less The Piano (an utterly uncontroversial art house movie, I recall, rather pedestrian after the wonderful Orlando, which certainly did contain nudity and was not controversial either). But I can buy some of this--maybe nudity in movies was controversial as late as 1968. But really...Blue Velvet? That was controversial, but hardly for the nudity (which I honestly don't remember, if it occurred). What's up? Am I missing something? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 00:47, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

For starters, Basic Instinct included a scence where Sharon Stone uncrosses her legs slowly exposing her panty-less crotch. In The Piano, Harvey Keitel has a full-frontal nude scene. --mtz206 14:28, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
But that was not the first - I can't recall the movie, but it was about 5-10yr previous, hollywood release, major well known male star. Leonard G. 03:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I completely agree with the original poster. There needs to be some justification why these movies are listed. Most of the movies listed are not notable for their nudity, but are notable or controversial for their sexual content. Last Tango in Paris was not banned for nudity, it was banned for an anal sex scene in which there is little or no nudity. Titanic is also not noteworthy for it's nudity, it was not the first PG-13 or even PG movie with nudity. I think movies like Boogie Nights, About Schmidt are much more notable for their nudity, by either bucking the trend (a nude Kathy Bates) or with their frank portrayal of nudity. These movies should either be removed or justified. I also think that there should be a separate list for films that were notable for sexual content. See Sex in Cinema for an excellent overview of movies that broke sexual ground. Reflex Reaction 20:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

We could make an endless list of movies that had nude scenes. That isn't the point, though. The list should contain ground-breaking uses of nudity in movies, something new or different. — Walloon 20:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Photos/pictures

I can only ask whether it is appropriate to use exclusively artistic nudity? (Paintings, sculptures...) Also, the nudity is almost exclusively female. While this could be okay, I think we need at least two honest depictions of nudity, one male, one female. You know: real people. - Gavin 06-02-2005

I agree that it is not OK that all the nude photos are of females. This perpetuates harmful stereotypes.Dan Lesh 05:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The use of "artistic" images helps to placate those who object to any images of nudity in the article. And three of them are photographs (of people whom I pretty sure are "real") so I'm not sure I see your point. Plus, I disagree with your implication that if they're "art", they're "dishonest". The point of these images isn't to illustrate what a typical nude body looks like; that's an anatomy question. The subject of the article is the social phenomenon of nudity, and I think the images should try to reflect how nudity is manifested in society. That's why - despite a personal preference for male nudity - I think it's appropriate that there would be more female images here, because in our society, breasts are much more prominent than balls. With that said, I do think that the two B&W female photos are a bit redundant, and the Weston photo is a copyright violation anyway, so I've removed it. Also, I've added an (ahem) "honest" illustration of male nudity in public showers for the otherwise imageless "Various modern-era attitudes" section. Tverbeek 21:56, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed Section

I've removed the section added by an anon IP on "Movie Actresses who've never done nude scenes." I don't think anyone will mind the removal of un-encyclopedic content, but it does make me wonder if there might by the possibility of forking off some of this information into "Nudity in Modern Media" or some such, as the latter half of the article discusses this in much more detail than nudity in general. Just a though... --Icelight 21:47, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Christian biblical account?

Why is the Christian creation myth given such a prominent role in this article? It is put on nearly equal footing with secular ideas of humanity's adoption of clothing, but it is the only religious account mentioned. Surely there are other myths in other religions of why people started wearing clothes that deserve to be mentioned as well. In my opinon, it would be more neutral to have a paragraph about secular theories of why people began wearing clothes, and a separate paragraph about religious myths which includes more than just the Christian account.

If there are other religious viewpoints on the question, feel free to add them. Otherwise, lacking a third viewpoint, I think the appropriately neutral approach is to mention both of these, equally prominently. To do otherwise would be playing favorites. In fact, if the Judeo-Christian legend is only being given "nearly equal footing", them we should boost it up. Tverbeek 18:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

What happened to frau.jpg?

Frau.jpg is nowhere to be found. What's the story? Paul 16:13, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

No story. Just someone felt there were better illustrative examples available and put them in instead. Tverbeek 18:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Well there was a bit of a story. The image was deleted on the 7th June by User:Lommer following a listing of WP:IFD ([2]). Not only was the photo somewhat more trouble than it was worth, it seems it was also a copyvio in any case. -- Solipsist 14:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

get rid of it READ THIS!!!!!!!!

Why are there so many REAL-LIFE nude pics? Now before you get all stuck-up, I know what you long time admins are going to say:

Well, we have a disclaimer, and it's just used when appropriate and relevant!

But I mean, what if you have little kids or something looking at this? You know that in the U.S., it's against the law to look at pornographic images under the age of 18 or 21 or something? I mean, come on. You perverts. At least get rid of the REAL ones that show absolutely intolerable images. --Slightly Angry 21:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:What_wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored_for_the_protection_of_minors. -- Solipsist 09:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Or something. --Craig (t|c) 19:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but is that 100% allowed? I mean, could we at least have all GIFs and sketches? --Slightly Illegal? 21"44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
In Elbonia it is illegal for anyone to look at the images of any people not covered by a veil.
If the US has backwards laws/social norms, it's their own problem. Arvindn 06:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's "100% allowed"; Wikipedia policy is very clear about this, as you'd know if you'd bothered to read the suggested link. And no, there's no sound reason to exclude photos, because none of these images are obscene or vulgar. If you have a specific, rational, and coherent argument to make against any particular image, that's fine, but calling people "perverts" (personal attacks are a violation of Wikipedia policy) and asking questions that have already been answered is not at all constructive. Tverbeek 03:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I see where you're coming from, but I mean, especially in the breast article, there's so many pics! Can we at least drop a few? --Slightly less pics 19:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Daunrealist, if there were a lot of nakedness here I would agree with you *into the high teens* but there are less then 10 I think its kosher --Kylehamilton 12:01, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this sort of content should be censored, but can anyone find fault with a simple banner at the top of such a page indicating that the content may be offensive? - andyjm
^ That idea is utterly ridiculous, doesn't warrant discussion at all. It becomes more simple if you read Wikipedia guidelines and policies. Skinnyweed 20:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I find fault with it. Such a banner would imply that there was something offensive about the images, which there is not. It would be more subtle than removing the images, but it would still be editorializing and POV. Kasreyn 02:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, you search for breasts, nudity, penis and the like, that is what you get. If kids search for that sort of thing, what do you think they might be expecting to come across? Bennyboyz3000 10:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

nude man

we need a picture of a nude man too

Totally agree. We should be able to find a PD photo of Andrew Martinez. OMG that's a red link?? Arvindn 07:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


Agree too! It is plain to see that this article was made by heterosexual men. It is not representative enough. There should be a few nude males - the same number as nude females. (unsigned comment by User:83.70.61.197)

  1. I've contributed substantially to this article and I am not at all heterosexual.
  2. The purpose of Wikipedia articles is not to entertain (but to inform), so the fact that the article is slightly less entertaining to hetero girls and gay guys is not a valid criticism.
  3. The article has a total of 7 semi/nude female figures and 5 nude male figures. While this is not equal, it does reflect the fact that female nudity is more widely depicted in our society.

Tverbeek 22:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The discussion is about photographs rather than pictures, where females win at least 3:0. Arvindn 06:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
But the point still stands that "I want more beefcake" is not a valid criticism. Tverbeek 12:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The point is not to entertain girls or gay men because obviously Wikipedia is not the site they will visit if the want to see nude men. The article is about Nudity so I think it is fair enough to show real-life photos of how both male and female individuals look like nude. After all, when we think of nudity we associate it only with human beings, not animals or something, so it has to present both variants.

Wikipedia must be a nutral equal venue for everything.....even nakeness we should make things about 50/50 and mention that female nakedness is much more common, im a breeder and even I thought that the male nakeness was a bit lacking --Kylehamilton 12:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Still no picture(s) of a nude man.

I dont think a picture of a nude man should be used. Nude men are gross, but nude women is art. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.187.211.69 (talk • contribs) 00:43, 8 March 2006.

Does any one else agree that a photo of a naked man is too stomach churning for the site. Nude women photos are art. 3 April 2006

Of course not. Photos of nude men are art too. I collect nude male art. Sweetie Petie 10:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I just think that nude men are not acceptable for Wikipedia. Nude women look better, 7 April 2006

Does anyone agree?

—This unsigned comment was added by 68.187.213.16 (talk • contribs) .

That's rather subjective, don't you think? The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform, not to titillate. Fishhead64 17:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


I like all the photos, there arnt many of women tho, was ti always like this? 2 to 12 or something, So, we need more women maybe less (historical) art of men and more real nudes (men) instead? i like the idea of a nudist camp shot. what do the scandies have? Cilstr 08:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

I removed this whole paragraph because too much of it is wrong.

One of the more interesting examples of certain modern attitudes towards nudity occurred in 2002 when Republican U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft ordered a semi-nude statue at the Department of Justice covered with a curtain. The statue, the Spirit of Justice, has been on display at DOJ since the 1920s. When new Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, also a Republican, assumed the office in 2005, he ordered the curtain removed. The statue had also been curtained temporarily from time-to-time under Republican Attorney General Richard Thornburgh when he spoke in the room. In another memorable episode, when Republican Attorney General Edwin Meese released a report on pornography in the 1980s, press photographers hit the floor to photograph him speaking in front of the partially clad statue.

First, the statue has been on display since it was made in the 30s, not the 20s, and that whole part of the room was covered, not just one statue, there's no proof that Ashcroft ordered ordered the curtains, etc. I'd go through and fix it, but I don't feel like it.--Cuchullain 23:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Re-write needed?

The article as it stands treats nudity from a Western, and even a US, standpoint, rather than from a culturally neutral one. I think a better approach would treat the following points (in order): 1. Nudity=lack of clothing (already treated). 2. While clothing has a practical function, the cultural function is even stronger. 3. Nudity is therefore a cultural artefact also, and perceptions differ both between contemporary cultures and over time.

I don't think there's really a lot more to be said - the article could certainly be a lot shorter than it is at present. I also think that some more illustrative illustrations (sorry, couldn't resist) could be used - e.g., Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel fresco of the Creation, in which M. painted Adam (and others) nude: with a decade or so the Church had changed its mind about nudity ande another artist was hired to cover up what it had previously accepted.PiCo 21:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This article does not need a rewrite it just needs someone to add a easten point of view --Kylehamilton 00:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Rather than the Sistine Chapel, you might to use Masaccio's The Expulsion Of Adam and Eve from Eden, which is a classic example of the addition and removal of fig leaves as tastes change over time. I had been planning to use it on erotic art to illustrate how opinions on what might be considered erotic depends on the era, but it could work here too. -- Solipsist 01:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The Masaccio is good, but the Sistine brings in the Vatican, which is more newsworthy even than a Medici :). Have you seen the Medici portraits in the Uffizi? I was amazed at how they slowly turned into a procession of Hapsburg lips - those Hapsburg genes are in every royal bedroom in Europe! I like the idea of an Eastern viewpoint - maybe something can be done? PiCo 06:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"In the 6th century, Benedict of Nurcia advised in his Rule that the monks sleeping in the dormitory should sleep fully dressed." Does this mean sleeping naked was the usual practice of the time, if Benedict had to make a rule telling the monks not to? PiCo 09:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

"As a general rule, public nudity is not considered "proper" in most societies." This misses the very important point that what is considered nudity varies hugely between societies. I've seen Western backpacker-girls walking round Angkor in tank-tops, and their boyfriends in shorts, both blissfully unaware that in Cambodian eyes they're nude in public. The article needs to be much more culturally aware. PiCo 09:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Non-Western attitudes

I lived in Japan for 7 years and never heard of a nudist camp over there. Perhaps the writer was confused with hot springs?

165.121.235.18 08:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


Agreed, there are definitely some innacuracies here. Removed "In both cases (mixed or segregated) public bathing in Japan is done in total nudity." There is no 'undress code' at the onsen I have been to, and the women often go covered by a sarong, which covers a whole lot more than any bathing suit made since the early 1900's. From what I can tell, Japan's 'naked culture' seems to have mostly dissappeared. OkashinaSakana 15:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Women fully wrap a towel around their body (a method called "gunkan maki") for TV shoots for obvious reasons, but what is actually practiced off TV is different. Bathers only carry a towel, and dipping that towel in the yubune, or bathtub, is considered a no-no. Virtually all public baths in Japan require bathers to be undressed by code and for the practical purpose of cleaning oneself. The exception is mixed gender public "baths" in urban areas, where the rule is that you *must* have a bathing suit on. --MangoCurry 05:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've modified this section, which I think suffers from an assumption that public, social nudity in Japan is somehow due to Western influence. It's the other way around. It is the Japanese elites' understanding of what it meant to be a "modern", "Western" nation that led increasingly to public modesty, and the presence of any "nudist camp" would be evidence that public, social nudity has become specialized and private. Thus you find mixed public baths in the conservative countryside and not the highly Westernized urban areas. More generally I think lumping Japan and Hong Kong is problematic. A-giau 14:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed statements that contradict facts about Japan, mainly the facts that A) communal showers don't exist in most Japanese public schools, B) schools don't permit children to swim naked, C) there are no nudist camps, let alone nude or topless beaches in Japan.--MangoCurry 05:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

We need to stop this crazy editing

Every week I come to this article not because im intrested in Nudity but because I love how people keep changeing nudity every week, we should make this a uniform article if this does not stop I will make a motion to lock this topic --Kylehamilton 09:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

yeah, it is sooooooo stupid, now they've added a low-quality picture of two fighting nude women...?!?!? who on earth needs this?

Nudity in art or just nudity? What is going on here?

Is this an article about nudity in art? Life drawing? The figure in sculpture? Can't there be a separate article just on that? I would think so. I think a lot of these images just are weak. I want to dig into this article but it seems so messed up.... sigh. All the other nudity topics are just kind of dumped in the see also section when the could be better discussed on this page. Dandelion1 04:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge/move suggestion

I would like to propose to move common sections of naturism and nudism as well as related issues to a new page called Clothes free movement. Dandelion1 23:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

photograph or drawing?

Is Image:Erleuchtung.jpg really a photograph? It looks like a drawing to me. --Allen 01:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a photo to me. =) Powers 18:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment from Daniel 123

I'm 11 years old and landed on this page as "random article". and my eyes are burned out of their sockets. Why do you make it sound like the site's called XXXpOrNeNcYcLoPedia? If i were much younger than i am now i propable couldn't even type 30 words per minute or be going to an on-line encyclopedia. "human knowledge" means things that we, as a species, know. it does not mean "things that humans know about fully-clothed people. I think we've all seen atleast ourselves naked and can handle the material in an encyclopedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daniel 123 (talk • contribs) .

I'm very confused. I can't figure out whether you're against nudity in Wikipedia or for it. In any case, Wikipedia is not censored for minors, or for any other reason. If you are offended by images of the human body, I pity you, since you have to live inside one like all the rest of us. In any case, a good way to avoid having your eyes "burned out" further would be to avoid Wikipedia and other adult encyclopedias from now on. Best wishes, Kasreyn 17:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Male underrepresentation

The article as it stands has quite a few high-quality photos of nude women (wonderful job on those, by the way), but no photos of nude men. Michaelangelo's David is a great addition to the article (and would be best balanced by the Venus de Milo, in my opinion), and I see there is also an illustration of nude men, but it still appears males are a bit underrepresented. Are there any male Wikipedia editors willing to pluck up their courage and grace the article with their images? I would, but I wouldn't want to give the human body a bad name with an image of my ugly self. :P Kasreyn 17:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Haiduc has added a tasteful male nude. Thanks! Kasreyn 04:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I have replaced one of the nude male images with another one that is more revealing and I think balances out the sexual representation of the article. Omgitsasecret 19:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately the image that you added is copyrighted and does not qualify under fair use. You may want to look under http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Men for other free images. There are also many free and CC licensed images at http://www.flikr.com --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 21:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it was more revealing, but it could have been used to replace a different image, rather than removing the very nice photo Haiduc found. Kasreyn 22:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

For the nude man picture, there is NO reason to mention the state of his penis/pubic hair/muscles- those attributes of his body are irrelevant in this context, ie whether or not he is wearing clothes

All nude pics removed

No need for anymore complaints about nude pics. I removed them all. User: Coconutfred73 9:45 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There have been no legitimate complaints that I am aware of. Wikipedia is WP:NOT censored. Pictures of nudity are entirely acceptable and appropriate on an article on that topic. The images have been restored. Kasreyn 04:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Several images were once again removed, this time by 205.188.117.5. They have all been restored. Kasreyn 08:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
But don't you have a no one under 18 policy? User:Coconutfred73 00:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Our policies need to be enforced more strongly. Skinnyweed 00:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea what you are talking about. If you are insinuating that an image on Wikipedia constitutes obscenity or child pornography, then say so. Point to the image and I will see for myself. Blanket statements serve no purpose here. This is an adult encyclopedia which is not censored. Thanks, Kasreyn 06:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

People need to learn that Wikipedia is a collection of knowledge. Search for nudity, what do you expect to get? - Nudity. Also not everyone lives in the naive United States (where such laws exist) and the world does not revolve around the USA's social norms. --Benchat 02:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC) 10:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Damn straight Ben. Very well said... - Canadian Wikipedia User —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.121.213.59 (talk) 06:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Pornography

I believe that the nude images should be only of art or film, or statues, but images that are frankly,too nude, say in flashing, or streaking, or naturism. --Bjmp 12 03:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Bjmp 12

You put naturism with flashing and streaking?--67.40.211.137 06:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What is "too nude"? Refer to WP:NOT; Wikipedia is not censored. Kasreyn 04:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
No POV and no censorship. Skinnyweed 20:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Kasreyn 02:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Why can't anyone tell the difference between pornography and non-sexualized nudity? -Unsigned
Some definitions of pornography imply that it is any material intended to cause sexual arousal. considering we may never know the intentions of the photographers in question, all we can do is recognize whether we are sexually aroused. if so-> pornography by definition. with that said, there is no place for censorship on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.216.0.77 (talk) 17:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Spelling bits and Moses

"diffrenetiating" is misspelled, given that google leads to no other hits for "preentably", I presume that too is a spelling error. Presumably the Moses quote is someone's translation, shouldn't there be some attribution (is this from e.g. the King James translation)? -Unsigned 17:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again?

In "Outside the United States", there's a sentence beginning "Once again, in Finland, ...", however there's only one other reference to Finland in the article, that's near a reference to Finnish, but there's no indication that Finnish families attend sauna often (from what I've been told this happens to be the case, but this article doesn't indicate that). -Unsigned 18:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sentence rewrite needed

"North Korea tends to be more strict compared to other countries when it comes to exposure of skin for women, such the exposure of a shoulder."

This sentence needs a rewrite, the end "such the exposure of a shoulder" is a fragment and I can't figure out what it was trying to say. -Unsigned 18:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Image:NUDE.JPG

I continue to feel this image is inappropriate for the article.

  1. It is unencyclopedic. What does it add that we don't already have from other images of nude women?
  2. It is being considered for deletion.
  3. It is an apparent vanity image. Uploader's edit summary: "MY GF!!"
  4. Maybe I'm wrong here, but she might also be underage, which could involve legal liability for Wikimedia.
  5. Plus, personal opinion: compared to the other nudes we have in the article, it's rather tasteless.

I'm interested to hear others' opinions. Kasreyn 07:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Bleah. I just thought of something alarming. I've seen remarks such as mine misinterpreted through overly-cautious analysis before. Forgive me for stressing that I am not making or implying any legal threat against WM. I am merely concerned for the sake of Wikimedia as an editor who loves Wikipedia. Nothing more. Kasreyn 08:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
To address your first point, there is no other example of (real-life, female) full-frontal nudity in the article. However, I concur with your vanity (it's obviously either vanity or a copyright violation) and tastefulness arguments. As for age, she doesn't look underage to me, but I admit I may be wrong. Powers 13:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Bias in illustration

As of today, the photos and drawings are as follows:

  1. one full frontal nudity drawing of man and woman from a space probe
  2. one female nude photo with crossed legs, head not visible
  3. one male nude painting, only rear nudity (no buttocks) visible
  4. one full frontal nude male statue (Michelangelo's David)
  5. one ancient frontal nude male drawing (sports)
  6. one male nude shower painting, only rear nudity (including buttocks) visible
  7. one female nude art pose photo, only rear nudity (including buttocks) visible
  8. one public nudity scene, showing only rear nudity
  9. one photo showing nude children "skinny dipping", side nudity
  10. one photo of a headless Japanese swimmer, rear semi-nudity
  11. one nude photo of a woman with her eyes closed, only breasts visible
  12. one photo of a nude male statue, no genitals visible

So, in an article with a dozen pictures, the overwhelming impression is one of people turning their backs to the viewer, closing their eyes, turning their heads away, crossing their legs, or otherwise concealing the nudity that is supposedly the subject of the article. The primary illustration of frontal nudity including the genitals is in the form of ancient statues or a NASA drawing. This is a bit bizarre, and conveys a subtle bias of shamefulness about the human body. I don't think the bias is intentional -- it's easy not to worry about issues like model release with photos without heads -- but I think it needs to be addressed.

I would suggest that article should simply begin with a full frontal nude photo of a nude man and a nude woman, such as the ones used in man and woman (surely these photos are even more appropriate and unproblematic an article about nudity itself). Any objections?--Eloquence* 00:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I think the current lead image is appropriate as it presents both male and female nudity, and presents them identically. The image on man and the image on woman are very dissimilar. Aside from that, I can only say that there are a lot of different kinds of nudity, and I thought they were very well represented in this article. Powers 01:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
They may be dissimilar, but they are actual full frontal photos of a nude man and a nude woman, as opposed to a drawing attached to a space probe. Right now, in spite of 12 pictures, we don't have any such photos.--Eloquence* 12:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It's silly that an article on nudity is show shy about showing all the human body! --Zantastik talk 21:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
How much of it is shyness and how much of it is like the picture Black nude.jpg (she may not be crossing her legs, but she has her legs close, so its not what Eloquence is talking about but its all I have to work with), where in a natural state, they just arn't showing every single part of their body. When I sit (clothed or otherwise), my legs are sometimes crossed or togeather. Nudity is not to show every part of the body, just to enjoy being yourself. --Traisjames (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Eloquence - there are a lot of images of backs but almost nothing of fronts. I believe the NASA line drawing should be retained - it has quite a bit of significance since it was an attempt to show ourselves to unknown intelligences, and so it shows a lot of our attitudes about ourselves - but a better lead image would be actual photographic frontal nudes. Kasreyn 00:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Leave in photographs only. No censorship. Censorship is prudish. -Unsigned

George Carlin is needed here

I'm offended. Not by the images, the concept or it's reality. I'm offended by the obvious, and rather sad, attempts of a few specific people to control thought, censer, and otherwise promote utter ignorance. Beauty, its said, is in the eye of the beholder. Artistic nudity and pornographic nudity is no different, other than the context in which we choose to observe it. Nude is Nude, and I don't really care if it does offend you. Let me see if I can break it down another way for you. You have problem with nudity. I don't. Which of us, then, has the problem? You can paint civility on anything your heart desires, but that doesn't change the canvas. Knowledge is power, and censorship is ignorance.

I say leave it as is.

Those that want the knowledge shouldn't be punished because someone else might possibly use it for lust. As I parent, I also want to address the worry-wart who is afraid a child might use this site. As a parent, it is our duty to educate our children. If we don't, someone else will, and I'd wager my paycheck against anyone here, it will be worse. Blind ignorance is fine for faith, but reality takes open eyes.

"Censorship is the beginning of the end of all knowledge" - Unknown

To the admins:Keep spreading the knowlege, even against those that promote ignorance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Styric (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure to what censorship you're referring, but thanks for the input. Powers 13:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to add comments like this, but this might work. I didn't mean to imply that you censored anything, I was just refering to those that were asking you to remove content. Styric

Overdoing it a bit?

I remember some months ago when I mentioned an imbalance of images, the article featuring primarily females, and Haiduc was kind enough to add some images of male nudes for balance. Now after some time away, I come back to find a great many new images of male nudes or seminudes, some of which are really poor quality or simply flat-out hideous. My first reaction upon seeing the "fat man in tights" (as I would describe it) image: I thought someone had vandalized the article with a shock image.

The article currently stands at: 1 image of a nude male and female (the line drawing), 3 images of females, and 13 images of males or mostly-male groups. I'd definitely say that's overdoing it. Kasreyn 03:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Obviously the images are not chose (or kept) in function of a rather pointless count -it would make more sense to mention to overrepresentation of white people, while there is no single Chinese or Latino, for example- but to illustrate the variations and contexts treated in the (sub)sections; often there simply seems to be no choice, e.g. nudity in combat means by Ancient fighters (all male then), or at least amongst the images we could find in our Wiki-arsenal, and as the article elaborates in many cases traditions only allow male nude, e.g. the Indian boys skinny-dipping. Fastifex 18:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    Well, I would hope they're not being chosen for a rigorous mathematical equality, and I'm not arguing for such. But it does seem such a significant imbalance that I have to wonder about the purpose of such a change. Also, the "fat man in tights" is really, really hard to take. I don't mean to be harsh if the uploader was also the model and is reading this, but I almost lost my lunch. Can't we find a way of depicting the topic equally well without descending to grotesquery? Kasreyn 08:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
If you can find a more eye-pleasing alternative, please do- however rejecting any illustration on the sole, utterly subjective criterion of esthetical appreciation is something I won't do, by the way 'grotesque' is surely over the top (I'ld rather suggest a lighter lunch), 'ridiculous' would be the harshest I could believe, but if you can't live till you've deleted that one, I probably can live without it. Fastifex 14:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not essential, but it is at least relevant to the topic being discussed in the article. I don't find it grotesque ("ridiculous" is good). A better image to use might be one of a male dancer, perhaps. Powers T 20:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Astetics aside, as a start, I see two photos of male swimwear and one of tights. These don't seem appropriate to the article as the subject at hand is *not* wearing such garments. After that, a few more can probably go as the article currently looks more like a photo gallery than an encylopedic article. --StuffOfInterest 21:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

  • No, the article deals with all uses of nude, naked and bare, NOT just full nudity, so it covers (especially in the section terminology) various forms of Parial and even Analogous nudity. Nor is there anything unencyclopaedic about ample illustrations of a rather graphical subject - I own editions of such leading e,cyclopaedias as Britannica and Larousse which include full or even multiple pages of colour illustrations (photos and/or drawings) on such varied subjects as Regalia or Dog breeds Fastifex 22:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Another point is that all these images are scattered around rather willy-nilly (pun not intended), seemingly at random. I won't say anything about the aesthetic quality of the images themselves (except to note that the pictures of women are all rather arty, those of men are clearly amateur self-pics), but their placement makes the page look rathe scruffy. Dewrad 13:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been attempting, off and on, to improve that. I recently rearranged the photos on partial male nudity and mooning, as well as Japanese fundoshi, to more appropriate locations. Are there any others that are poorly placed? Kasreyn 23:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
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