Talk:Olympiacos women's basketball

Problem with WP:RS and WP:NPOV

This article has sources only from the fan pages of Olympiacos ([1] [2] [3]). Αlso the creator of the article removed text based in reliable, published sources and called to restore it. --IM-yb (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I didn't remove any text, I made a footnote which includes everything, why use 4 sources to support the same fact? Anyroad, I restored two of them. The other sources I used have nothing to do with WP:NPOV, they were used to support DATES and FACTS and not opinions. This source [4] is based on Greek newspapers of the 50s, referring to the foundation and the early history of the department. If there is another source from elsewhere, I would gladly add it to the article. The most important is that kokkina.gr and gavros.gr ARE NOT FAN PAGES, they are sports/news websites with Olympiacos being their main interest. These sites are run BY JOURNALISTS NOT FANS. It's obvious that they support Olympiacos and they are not objective, but I could say exactly the same thing for websites that claim to be objective, but are in fact being financed by presidents of certain clubs. In any case, I repeat that these sources where used to support FACTS and DATES and not opinions. If someone finds POV elements on 4 lines of an introduction, I rest my case. Gtrbolivar (talk) 15:03, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Gtrbolivar delete the {{POV}} from the article (here), without consensus (here).
The club (Olympiacos C.F.P.), in their Extraodinary General Assembly (Έκτακτη Γενική Συνέλευση) officially decided "merge" (συγχώνευση). It mentioned in the official website of the club (here). It exists in reliable, published sources like this (here and here). The fact is hidden by User:Gtrbolivar in footnote and the word "merge" replaced by the word "absorbing". That is vital information for the department of the club (Olympiacos Women's Basketball) and please to do the restore of the text and sources without "footnote". --IM-yb (talk) 23:44, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Seriously?

This whole thing is a joke. Olympiacos as a multi-sport club ABSORBED Elliniko and I hereby provide three reliable sources for everybody to read: [5], [6], [7]: for our friends who don't speak Greek I quote (and translate): "Ο Ολυμπιακός, που «απορρόφησε» την ομάδα του Ελληνικού το καλοκαίρι" ("Olympiacos "absorbed" Elliniko this summer"), "Είναι πλέον γεγονός! Ο Ολυμπιακός απορρόφησε το Ελληνικό και θα αγωνίζεται τη νέα σεζόν στην Α1" ("At last! Olympiacos absorbed Elliniko and they are going to play at A1 Category this season."), "Είναι γεγονός ότι ο Ολυμπιακός θα παίξει στην Α1, αφού απορρόφησε το Ελληνικό" ("It'a fact that Olympiacos will play in A1 Category, after absorbing Elliniko").

I won't even respond to your consipracy theories ("The fact is hidden by Gtrbolivar", as if a footnote is some kind of secret, hidden from the public). Seriously man, stop wasting our time and stop tilting at windmills. Do everybody the favour and find something more productive to do. Gtrbolivar (talk) 00:45, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I want a third opinion about the issue. I hope in a more kindly attitude to the interlocutor, sources and the club of Olympiacos C.F.P. A neutral view will say if the official decision of the club is a "joke". --IM-yb (talk) 01:01, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

You're wasting everybody's time on an insignificant, non-existant issue. I explained everything in my answer. Find something more important to do and stop tilting at windmills. Gtrbolivar (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Current team of Olympiacos Women's Basketball created by the merge of Olympiacos C.F.P. with the womens basketball department of Elliniko. Not with Elliniko club. The previus team of Olympiacos Women's Basketball was inactive and the foundation 1947 is for the old team of Olympiacos Women's Basketball. Article is obviously misleading. User:Gtrbolivar is trying to change the history of the team and do not respect the official decision of the club Olympiacos C.F.P. --IM-yb (talk) 01:09, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I rest my case. This man is obviously trolling us. Man, do you even speak English? Did your read my answers? Did you see the sources I provided? Did you understand what they're saying? The department was founded in 1947, it was dissolved in mid 60s and this summer Olympiacos CFP as a multi-sport club absorbed legally and financially Elliniko BC and reorganised its Women's basketball department. That's the whole story. What in God's name are you're trying to pull here? "Gtrbolivar is trying to change the history of the team and do not respect official the decision of the club". God help us. Gtrbolivar (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Summary

1. The sources of the main section of the article are from fan pages of Olympiacos.
2. Gtrbolivar remove vital information for the article which had added the User:Greco22, replaced the word "merged" by "absorbing" and set as a footnote.
3. Foundation of the current team is not 1947. The team was inactive from the 60s to 2015. The infobox has only 1947.
4. I put the {{POV}} in article and Gtrbolivar delete the template.

I dont want to get involved in the edit wars. The major additions will be made by consensus. --IM-yb (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Summary

1. This source [8] is based on Greek newspapers of the 50s, referring to the foundation and the early history of the department. The other two sources from kokkina.gr and gavros.gr ARE NOT FAN PAGES, they are sports/news websites with Olympiacos being their main interest. These sites are run BY JOURNALISTS NOT FANS. But in any case, this discussion is 100% irrelevant because these sources where used to support simple FACTS and DATES and not opinions, or analysis. We are talking about 4 lines of introduction. What POV? This is absurd.

2. Another joke. I didn't remove any information whatosever. I created a footnote explaining how was the department reorganized. Most importantly, I hereby provide three independant reliable sources that prove beyond all doubt that Olympiacos as a multi-sport club ABSORBED Elliniko: [9], [10], [11]: for our friends who don't speak Greek I quote (and translate): "Ο Ολυμπιακός, που «απορρόφησε» την ομάδα του Ελληνικού το καλοκαίρι" ("Olympiacos "absorbed" Elliniko this summer"), "Είναι πλέον γεγονός! Ο Ολυμπιακός απορρόφησε το Ελληνικό και θα αγωνίζεται τη νέα σεζόν στην Α1" ("At last! Olympiacos absorbed Elliniko and they are going to play at A1 Category this season."), "Είναι γεγονός ότι ο Ολυμπιακός θα παίξει στην Α1, αφού απορρόφησε το Ελληνικό" ("It'a fact that Olympiacos will play in A1 Category, after absorbing Elliniko"). It was not a merger, Olympiacos CFP absorbed legally and financially Elliniko BC and reorganized Olympiacos Women's Basketball department. And please note IM-yb's consipracy theories ("The fact is hidden by Gtrbolivar"), as if a footnote is some kind of secret, hidden from the public. Please...

3. Unbelievable. Seriously? Olympiacos Women's Basketball was FOUNDED IN 1947, it WAS DISSOLVED in mid 60s and was REORGANIZED IN 2015 after Olympiacos CFP ABSORBED Elliniko BC. It is the same department, it's Olympiacos Women's Basketball department. Wake up. It was founded in 1947. Stop wasting our time.

4. There is no POV whatsoever, there are 4 lines of introduction merely stating some basic facts and dates about the department. The only POV is your absurd theories.

There is no dispute here gentlemen, the whole thing is a totally insignificant, irrelevant, non-existant "issue". In absence of something more important and more productive to do, this user started tilting at windmills, creating imaginary disputes to spend his time on. Unfortunately, I was forced to spend my time answering to all this absurdity. Gtrbolivar (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

We have not even a third and neutral viewpoint. Gtrbolivar make new sections and use bold to create impressions. Trying to reduce the value of the fact about " the team who resulting from the merger of club Olympiacos C.F.P. with the womens department of Elliniko B.C. will named Olympiacos and will used colors of Olympiacos ", just mention the club's official website on the record of decision (and archived), but Gtrbolivar don't accept that. --IM-yb (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

My opinion is that GtrBolivar wants the articles of Olympiakos to have a "good image", lets say. Its normal, everybody supports a team. On the other hand, here is an encyclopaedia and the facts are above team's sympathies. So I suggest a middle road, the cites and references abt the absorption of Elliniko to be at least at the downpage, in the references section Greco22 (talk) 18:08, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that you should direct your "good image" argument to yourself. You're clearly describing your editing modus operandi, to say the least (I'm referring of course to your contributions to Pao articles). I've observed that in many cases, you even plagiarized whole phrases from Olympiacos articles and added them to Pao's, in order to create this "good image". I can go on and on with other remarks on your editing history, but I have neither the time nor the intention to preoccupy myself with your editing modus operandi or with anyone else's for that matter. Anyroad, I don't have any problem with anyone's edits, as long as you or any editor states facts and truths backed up by reliable sources and not myths or inflated, disproportional, POV descriptions. I couldn't care less about the "good image" of any club. My only concern is to add facts that are backed up by reliable sources and to enrich some articles that interest me, with reliable information of some historic value.

Now about that pickle we find ourselves in; as everyone can see, I created a reference stating the fact that Olympiacos absorbed Elliniko and I restored 2 of the sources. Consequently, this info IS in the references section. The problem here is that we have to deal with an "editor" who's tilting at windmills and wants to create an imaginary, non-existant dispute. His "arguments" and his conspiracy theories are so absurd ("The department was not founded in 1947,"(!!!!), "The fact is hidden by Gtrbolivar", —as if a footnote is some kind of secret, hidden from the public— "The previus team of Olympiacos Women's Basketball was inactive and the foundation 1947 is for the old team of Olympiacos Women's Basketball. Gtrbolivar is trying to change the history of the team and do not respect the official decision of the club Olympiacos C.F.P.") that any decent man would walk away from all that instantly. Despite the profound ignorance and absurdity, I explained everything in detail and more than once as you can see. Anyone can understand that there is no dispute here, that there is no issue whatsoever. We're just losing our time dealing with somebody's fixation. Gtrbolivar (talk) 16:40, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Easy Bolivar, relax. Ok no problem, if you dont care abt the "good image" of Olympiakos articles, then add to the introduction again that the team actually absorbed Elliniko BC and put again the references you removed (against the wiki policy, User:IM-yb is right on this) Greco22 (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that there is not a volunteer to see the situation and tell their view. We have only the contributor, the creator and the complainant.

1. When creating the article, nowhere referred how the team arrived in A1 National Division. The team founded in 1947 and dissolved in the 60s. In 2015 the team reorganized and from out of nowhere comes to the highest division (A1 National Division). How the team arrived in the highest division? A user gives a answer but was deleted. Another time we have again a answer based in reliable, published sources, but was not liked and modified.

2. The "mistake" was that the information was added. First had to be read the article a unrelated to the subject, reader, and ask in the talk page, how this team arrived suddenly in the A1 National Division.

I'm not going to get involved in such games. Here we need neutral volunteer (based in their edits, not a puppet). --IM-yb (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)