Talk:Ontario Highway 401/Archive 2

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Notes about history

Earlier names
Early non-401 improvements to Hwy 2
Openings
  • West end to 56: by 1958
  • 56 to 63: by 1963
  • 63 to 177: presumably by 1964
    • Note the Highway 135 connection: [3]
  • 177 to 238: by 1957
  • 238 to 342: presumably by 1964
  • 342 to 352: by 1959
  • 352 to 357: by 1955
  • 357 to 369: by 1953
  • 369 to 371: by 1955
  • 371 to 392: by 1958
  • 392 to 417: by 1950 (as Hwy 2A; became Hwy 401 by 1956)
  • 417 to 436: by 1955
  • 436 to 509: by 1963
  • 509 to Wyman Road (west of 566): by 1960
    • past Belleville: by 1959
  • west of 566 to west of 579: presumably by 1964
  • west of 579 to 599: by 1963
  • 599 to 611: by 1962
  • 611 to 623: by 1958
  • 623 to 647: by 1960
  • 687 to 721: by 1960
  • 721 to 738: presumably by 1964
  • 738 to Aultsville Road (west of 770): by 1958
  • west of 770 to 814: presumably by 1964
  • 814 to Quebec: 1964 (last piece of original 401)

I believe everything that was complete in 1960 is listed here. --NE2 18:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a plaque at the East bound Esso/TimHortons rest stop near Mallorytown which states that section as the last completed stretch of the 401. It would be interesting to get a pitcure of this for the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.194.130 (talk) 17:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Find me a reliable source for those dates and locations, and you will make my life far easier. Cheers, ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sourcing

I believe [4] qualifies as a reliable source. Normally a personal website would not be, but this one was mentioned in detail in the Globe and Mail, and the author (John Shragge) worked for the MTO writing press releases. Thus I will be citing it, at least when I cannot find a better source. --NE2 09:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I was about to post a new section on that resource. It contains an excellent and very detailed history that would be good to reference throughout the article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Details on the history of the west end

  • 1959: both spurs there
  • 1960: 401 used the tunnel spur, but the bridge spur existed

I'm having trouble finding maps that go far enough away from downtown Windsor. --NE2 23:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Mississauga Service Center

I know for a fact that there was once an Westbound service center at that location, but it was closed and demolished years ago. If anyone knows what year that occurred, please add it. --99.234.201.111 (talk) 15:25, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no recollection of this. I remember them building the now closed east-bound one, but I don't remember a westbound one even then. 1960s? 1970s? Nfitz (talk) 15:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


Yes there was in fact a service centre on the westbound side, (just past winston churchill) however it was closed in september 2006 and although it has not been demolished it has been wrecked by vandals breaking every window and destroying it inside and out.Snickers696969 (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

That's on the eastbound side. I've seen the empty chunk of grass that could have been nothing but a service centre on google satellite shots, but never read anything on it at all. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Service Centres

There appears to be an extensive upgrading program in progress for many of the Service Centres along the 401. The eastbound centre at Trenton has been completely closed and dug up, while the westbound one is mostly closed at the moment. Signs on the highway state that the eastbound centre at Mallorytown Landing will close for rebuilding on September 30, 2009, and I think that the eastbound centre east of Mallorytown is closed too. Apparently, at least some of the facilites (like the eastbound Trenton one) are being dug up to allow the replacement of old fuel tanks at the locations.--209.202.70.226 (talk) 19:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Most likely digging up the contaminated soil since a lot of older fuel tanks built around the time of these service centres became rusty and sprung leaks. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Last Year

"Actual construction on the expansion is slated to start in 2008 at the earliest" -- Considering it's now 2009 (for a while) this should be changed or something. Lots42 (talk) 08:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Current work

Anybody aware of what they are doing every night on the highway in Toronto? I've noticed they've been working on the barriers where the gantry signs meet them (Same with on the DVP), but they also are regularily closing on/off-ramps and entire sections of express / collectors lanes, with seemingly no changes being made.

Though I have noticed that there are now rumble strips on the shoulders in Toronto, which there weren't a few months ago. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Article rewrite

This article has become a total mess. I'm rewriting it in my sandbox, removing all the random speculation, creating real references (hopefully without the use of thekingshighways website) and alt text for the images, etc... Making it minimum GA quality and hopefully FA worthy. At this point, I've cut down the lead, and rewritten the Highway of Heroes and Speeding sections. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

All done and transfered! - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Units of Length

I noticed there are a few spots in the article where the Imperial system of measurement comes before the Metric. Not really a big issue, but it might be best to stick to one (Imperial first or Metric first - Metric is already first in most cases, so it might be easier to do it that way) for consistency and readability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.205.241.254 (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


I was debating with myself on where to go with this. Only the history section uses imperial first. The idea being that Canada/Ontario didn't switch to the metric system until 1977, and many lengths were measured by chain. Hence, 300 ft, 93 metre right of way. It makes more sense to do all in one system, and just simply mention that everything was imperial before 1977. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Map

  1. Moved to WT:ONRD#Maps

Images

The amount of images in this article has reached the ridiculous level. Some need to be removed immediately. (Not later because were working on it) Some are great and add positively to the article, however 15+ pictures is excessive, this is not a picture book after all. Po' buster (talk) 13:03, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Please read WP:DEADLINE, and provide a guideline or policy prohibiting more than 15 images in a 140 kb article. I don't see anything about a maximum at WP:IMAGES#Image_choice_and_placement. There are more photos to go in. Lots of historic photos, one or two significant modern ones. Many articles have more pictures. Ridiculous is your point of view.
Otherwise, point out specific images (not the number of images) you feel detract from the article, and we can discuss the merit of keeping or removing them. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I never said there were any guidelines against numerous images. This article looks VERY amateur with 15+ images ... But if that's the kind of article you want, after all it is your article. Po' buster (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I strongly disagree, but WP:FAC will decide that for both our sakes. What screen resolution are your browsing under? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
1680 x 1050 ... I feel the images are too plentiful, scattered, and the captions too long. But hey, what do I know. Po' buster (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions:

  • There are two images with the Toronto collector lanes right underneath eachother. One of them (401 traffic jam) talks about traffic jams, but there isn't even a traffic jam pictured ! It should be removed.
  • 401 Windsor images is useless. It shows a desolate part of the highway and the caption talks about widening to six lanes, but the image already shows 6. It should be removed.
  • Is there really a need to show a "Highway of Heroes" billboard sign, and marker ? Seems excessive, one would suffice. One should be removed.
  • I do enjoy the 401 night lapse image, but the caption is beyond corny. The caption should be changed to something more appropriate.
  • 401 ce 1989 - is useless. It's out of date, and doesn't really contribute anything to the history. I see the point of it, but it doesn't achieve anything. It should be removed.

That's what I'm suggesting. Po' buster (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most of those, except the last. It was the most recent extension of the CE system, and for anyone that ever travels the highway east of the DVP today, it provides a stark contrast as to what 20 years can do. I may substitute another photo from the same time period that shows better. I agree about the corny caption. I did it on the fly since none was provided.


I agree that too many images are excessive, but this particular article requires a liberal amount of images to show the various characteristics of the highway along its route.

The 401 is a long highway, it should have more images than say, Highway 420.

Here are my suggestions:

  • There are two images with the Toronto collector lanes right underneath eachother. One of them (401 traffic jam) talks about traffic jams, but there isn't even a traffic jam pictured ! It should be removed.
  • 401 Windsor images is useless. It shows a desolate part of the highway and the caption talks about widening to six lanes, but the image already shows 6. It should be removed.
  • Is there really a need to show a "Highway of Heroes" billboard sign, and marker ? Seems excessive, one would suffice. One should be removed.
  • I do enjoy the 401 night lapse image, but the caption is beyond corny. The caption should be changed to something more appropriate.
  • 401 ce 1989 - is useless. It's out of date, and doesn't really contribute anything to the history. I see the point of it, but it doesn't achieve anything. It should be removed.


  • Good images of the collector/express system are awesome and should be kept tidy with the article. It adds a lot to the article letting people look a the size of the route with sheer awe.
  • I can agree with the Windsor image. It doesn't add much except that the surface is concrete
  • Highway of Heroes signs: I agree that one can be used instead of two. Maybe use the billboard because the picture of the MC-401 sign has a similar look to the Highway of Heroes sign.
  • I like the caption for the night shot. However it could change.
  • The 1989 photo is of historical significance. I like how much the different the highway looks today compared to this photo even though the highway itself hasn't changed much. Only the barriers, signage and lighting has changed for the most part.

If we need more than 15 images, than so be it. A picture says a 1000 words and can add a lot of useful information and perspectives to the article, especially if they are good quality and well organized.

Haljackey (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Template:TOC left

Template:TOC left <--- this old!! template....does an odd thing ( Not to all browsers), but to many see here ...I should have mentioned this before i deleted the code!! anyways just FYI that there are a few Highway articles that are like this.....Moxy (talk) 20:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Does it always happen with every use of TOC left? It seems like a css issue making the table not float (or the infobox), but it's really not much worse than the article appears with a normally inserted TOC. This is something to go to the village pump or the template talk page rather than dealing with it on the article's end. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 13:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes sorry about that..did not notice that it had been recently vastly in proved... I have been looking into this. I have found that its a browser setting. I will be posting the info at the pump.. Again sorry!!Moxy (talk) 20:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Image

What say you? I think it says much more than the cloudy picture of the reassurance markers. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 13:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


Looks good... I just wish the MC-Freeway sign was blue. That's what makes it unique on the 401.

I also cropped this image of the basketweave. It could still use a little work. Both the cropped and uncropped images are in the commons.

The basketweave viewed from a flyover ramp heading towards Highway 401 from Highway 400.

Other than that I think the only image the article is missing is a Highway of Heroes salute. We need one that shows the Canadians lining the overpasses with flags as the hearse carrying our fallen soldier passes by. That would add so much to the article. Even a shot without the hearse would be fine. Haljackey (talk) 15:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

What made it unique. I've been watching the papers for any word on when a repatriation will happen (wow. I'm a terrible person, I'm waiting for soldiers to die). There doesn't seem to be a forum or group centring around them, but perhaps there is something on facebook. They seem to occur at the same time of day, and pass through Toronto between 4 and 4:30pm depending on traffic. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Found a group. It appears Mr. Douglas Blake may possibly be the soldier to be honoured on Wikipedia. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The Basketweave

Don't you think that The Basketweave should be mentioned within the context of this article? It should have a link from description of the relevant stretch of the highway. I will leave this up to the editors who have currently taken possession of this article to fix. Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I have tried to add it many times but I never found a good spot to get it to fit. Possibly in the new collector/express subsection? 18:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haljackey (talk • contribs)
I've added it to the 'see also' for now. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I think only a quick mention in the route description for the GTA and maybe a photo are necessary. It's got it's own article that we can link to. I'll see if I can wedge it somewhere. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Cutting time

I'm just about done with sourcing the Route description, which should make the entire article properly sourced. After that (and actually a little bit as I go) I'm going to start cutting out anything and everything that I have no luck finding a reference for. There is no prejudice in this - If you can find a source, add 'er back. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you make this in a sandbox or something? Or maybe let us know what you're about to take out so we can try and find a source for it? Haljackey (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
One more thing as you pull this article apart, "Highway" 401 needs to be called either a highway or a freeway throughout the article, not both. It's subname is the MacDonald-Cartier "Freeway" so that makes it even more confusing. According to the Wikipedia articles, a freeway has to be grade separated and limited access (US def), however a highway can be like that too but doesn't have to be (international def). I don't care which one you use, as long as it's consistent. Haljackey (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
As far as I was aware (and this article is all white noise to me now, so I may have missed it), it uses three terms: "highway", "Highway 401" and "the 401". Freeway is only mentioned in the lead and at the beginning of the route description to describe the type of highway it is. I have no problem with all the instances of "highway" being changed to "freeway", but then it becomes confusing when freeway and Highway 401 are used together. I'll mention anything I cut in the summary and paste it on here so that nothing is "lost". - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, sounds like "highway" is the less-confusing term to use then. All that needs to be changed is the first sentence and the infobox. Something like this:
  • Provincial Highway 401, also known by its official name of the Macdonald–Cartier Freeway and colloquially as the four-oh-one,[2] is a divided highway in the Canadian province of Ontario.
  • Infobox: change divided freeway to divided highway

Want me to change all that? 15:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Those are the only two instances where I believe freeway should be used to refer to the 401 (except when using the proper noun Macdonald–Cartier Freeway). Otherwise the term highway is synonymous with "high speed road". All other cases should be changed, and the first instance should link to the article on freeways. Highway 401 is still a freeway, but in passing reference, we can refer to Highway 401 as the highway as opposed to the freeway. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, whatever works. Should "Divided freeway" be changed to "divided highway" in the infobox? How do you do that? I don't see a place for it. Haljackey (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I personally don't think so. Highway 35/115 is a divided highway, but not a freeway (because of the RIRO exits and access to local business. When you are describing the type of road Highway 401 is, it is a freeway. When you are simply referring to Highway 401, it can be a highway or freeway. "the highway is a freeway" (I know that sentence would never be used); "Highway 401 is divided and features grade-separated interchanges for its entire length, making the highway a freeway."
One is sort of a statistic in a way. The other is simply a noun to refer to the subject.
Changing it involves changing Template:Infobox Ontario road/main, and it would make all the 400 series highways change. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I changed it, but it hasn't applied to the template. Are the changes instant or do they take time? Haljackey (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I made the second change... But I don't tink you understand what I'm saying. If you have a paragraph about "Highway 401", which is a freeway, you refer to it as "the highway" throughout the paragraph instead of "the freeway". However, the answer to "what type of highway is: Highway 401, 4, 500, and Kipling Avenue?" The answers are "Freeway, provincial highway, secondary highway, and arterial highway (since all roads are "legally" highways).
That said, I think the divided should be dropped in the infobox in favour of "Freeway" for 400-series highways and fully controlled-access highways. For provincial highways that are divided for most or all of their length, "Divided highway" would be used. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
All right, I'll let you chose then. As long as it isn't just "highway" it will work. Freeway works, so does divided highway or controlled-access highway. Haljackey (talk) 17:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

401 ideas part 1

Hey, I recently did some work with the 401 article and put an image in the infobox. It keeps the article a little tidier, but the infobox is kind of long now.

What do you think about adding a subsection entitled "World's Busiest Highway"? There we can dismiss that claim putting in sources that state it as NA's busiest and the one of the world's busiest. We can also state that there is no official source that states it as the world's busiest but it does have volumes higher than any road in the world based on all publicly gathered documents.

The 18 lane pic doesn't really show all 18 lanes well. I think we might need to source this. Does THIS or THIS qualify as sources? I'm sure we can find a text document stating it is 18 lanes too.

Also, has there been any progress upgrading the article to A class? Haljackey (talk) 17:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I'm heading to Toronto on Friday. I'll try to get a shot of the hilly section in the Dorchester Swamp during the trip. (just got a new camera so I hope it comes out ok). Problem is it's forcasted to rain so the shot may not be better than the one that's currently up there. I'll also try to get a shot of the construction between Woodstock and K-W (although we may take the 403 to get to downtown Toronto as we're going there first). Any other photos you want between London and Toronto? Haljackey (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Heh, no. It's sitting, and waiting. From what I've heard it can take some time. I may just throw it at WP:FAC and see how badly it gets shot down. I think the information regarding the world busiest is from the old article at wikipedia. All sources claiming that are mirrors of wikipedia, or self published blogs from someone who read the wikipedia article. I've got the MTO and FHWA sources that claim the busiest in North America. What we can say is that it has the highest AADT of any road, since I don't believe they measure that in Asia (the only place that could have a busier road is Japan or southeast Asia / China / Taiwan). I don't think a separate section is necessary, just put it in the lead of the Route description, and summarize it in the lead of the article (basically extending the way it is set up now). I think a picture or (preferably, as far as I've heard) a satellite shot of that section is enough validation for the number of lanes (I've used sat. shots in List of numbered roads in Kawartha Lakes, which is on it's way to being a featured list). Adding the pic to the infobox works really good btw, at both 1024x768 and at 1600x1024.
As for pics, if you can get stop at all and get one of the 401/403 interchange, as well as any photos of the 403 (esp. coming down the escarpment in Hamilton, see if you can get it with the massive waterfall on the south side). The more pics the better. :)
Other than that, don't worry about rain - If the white balance is set right, the picture should look good regardless of the weather. Take a sheet of blank white paper. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not really sure how to state that worlds busiest highway thing in the route description. You made that section, right? Perhaps you can fit that in somewhere?
It's there now:
"The 401 is one of the world's busiest highways,[4] with an estimated annual average daily traffic (AADT) count of 431,900 in Toronto between Weston Road and Highway 400, as of 2006,[1] as well as daily traffic in excess of 500,000 on some days.[3] This makes it the busiest roadway in North America, surpassing the Santa Monica Freeway in Los Angeles, Interstate 10 (I-10) in Houston, and I-75 in Atlanta."
I suggest changing "is one of the world's busiest highways,[4]" to "is one of the world's busiest freeways[4] and has the highest recorded annual average daily traffic (AADT) in the world at 431,900, as of 2006.[6] The section in Toronto between Weston Road and Highway 400 carries in excess of 500,000 vehicles on some days.[3]"

As for the photos, like I said, I'm not really sure if we're taking the 401 or 403 to Toronto. Either way I'll try to get shots for the 403/QEW articles and whatnot. I'm traveling in a car packed with friends, so we won't be stopping to take pics. The ones I do manage to take will probably be through the windshield or a side window if we're traveling on a overpass. I'll try to roll down the window but if its cold and rainy I don't think it will happen.

Anyways I'll try to get some shots, but don't count on anything amazing. Haljackey (talk) 18:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll be out for photos in August. I find it's the best month to capture the colours (beside green and brown) of the scenery, and that the sunlight is at the best angles. Probably won't get further than Cambridge, but I want to get a shot of the reconstruction of the 8/401 interchange. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Wow, the weather looks absolutely horrible tomorrow. Don't count on any images from me :( Haljackey (talk) 17:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Huh, I actually got some decent results. The here are the links to the pics that turned out ok. Most are for the 401, but they are in no order. Let me know if you want any uploaded to the commons.

Haljackey (talk) 17:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Dorchester swamp image is definitely better than the current image, so it would be good, but it's the one of the CN Tower that truly stands out to me. It would be great to use as the first image for the Gardiner Expressway. :::::The other images I don't recognize for the most part.
Found this photo yesterday, you might find it interesting: The widening of the highway from 4 to 12 lanes and the construction of the DVP/404 interchange.[5][6] - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok cool, I'll get those ones uploaded. Which one did you want of the CN tower, the one up close right (not from the 427 flyover). I guess I should have described the pics some more... The second one shows the widening between Woodstock and Kitchener, 3rd one is a ped overpass and Grand River bridge, 4th is C/E widening between Hurontario Street and 403/410, and the last is near the 427/Gardiner/QEW junction. Haljackey (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
The pictures are up. Oh, and those images are cool too. Perhaps the first one you linked can replace the old 400/401 junction as it is much more interesting. Haljackey (talk) 17:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I've been doing some work with the images on the 401 article, mostly cropping them to make them smaller in the article. This mainly consists of cutting out the sky which is, for the most part, wasted space. After completing this, I noticed that the highway traffic camera pic doesn't fit in well with the article. Now that there is a picture of a changable message sign, do we still really need the camera pic? Haljackey (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Not sure I agree with all of the changes. Some of the pictures look very odd being so short in height (Dorchester Swamp), but a number are also much better (HoH billboard). I also plan on replacing the 18 lane / CMS picture as soon as a replacement is available - The camera picture has very little clutter and focuses solely on the subject at hand, instead of showing a dozen items of interest at once. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, Ok. Feel free to recrop the pictures (look in file history on the image page) if you think some of them look odd. Thoughts on getting rid of the traffic cam pic? Also found some pics of the 401 in London from a hot air balloon [7] [8]. The photographer has given me permission to use his images on Wikipedia in the past, so getting them in the article shouldn't be too much trouble. Haljackey (talk) 00:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Like I said, I intend to keep the traffic camera and remove the CMS one when a replacement for the 18 lane shot is found (or if one doesn't show up soon), since there is no clutter in the traffic camera shot. The second hot air balloon photo is great for showing a Parclo, methinks. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Gotcha. I'll upload that one to the commons under the Highway 401 category. I'm not sure where it's going to fit in the article because it has more length than width. Feel free to add it anywhere you see fit. Haljackey (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
It's up. I cropped it a bit to cut out the sky. Link: [9] Haljackey (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I see you got the 401/404/DVP pic up. I think having that in the article along with the 400/401 pic is overkill. The one you just added is much better, so keep that one. I would also suggest it be cropped to reduce the length of the image, showing just the 401 and the interchange. Something like this: [10], or one that I have sharpened and enhanced: [11]

What do you think? Haljackey (talk) 04:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Good job on the caption btw. Another issue with the old one was two links next to each other without a word that is not linked separating them.
I don't think having both pictures is overkill, but I definitely agree on using your cropped /enhanced version (upload it to a new name though - I intend to use the full height image on Don Valley Parkway). I'm more for the historical images that actually show something being done over the pictures of the highway today though, so I'd rather take out another image that adds little to the users knowledge than two informative historical images. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 06:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure as long as the pictures are organized the two won't be overkill, at least until the article gets chopped up for A-class or featured article status. Can you upload the cropped image you liked? I don't know the licensing for that photo. I'm sure it will be very similar to the full pic you just uploaded. Haljackey (talk) 06:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

401 ideas part 2

I have a few more ideas for the article.

  • First of all, all the red links should be eliminated (exception might be made for the exit list).
  • Maybe make a subsection discussing the problems with the road / congestion? Highway 401's Toronto segment was named one of the worst roads in Ontario in 2009 by the CAA. Link and source: [12] general information: [13]
  • Expand the section about the service stations and maybe get a pic of one under reconstruction. I tried to get a shot of the one that's been demolished in Ingersoll, but the image came out blurry. Also, the one in Woodstock (estbound) is open, yet it's stated closed in the article. In addition, it has all the services described in the Newcastle (westbound) service centre. Perhaps the two were switched up? (Not sure if Newcastle one is open or closed, but I would assume its closed.)
  • In your completion map, you have a ??? on the most eastern stretch. I think a date needs to be found and changed in the image.
  • Maybe include a video showing some important milestones the highway achieved over the years? I recall seeing a couple on Youtube. Good example: [14]

Speaking of Youtube, remember I linked you a high-speed video of the C/E system? I recently talked to the uploader, and he's in the process of fixing the annotations and tweaking the video so it's more accurate. He'll contact me when its done so it can either be linked in the external links or possibly added as a video file.

Thoughts on these 401 ideas? Haljackey (talk) 18:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Per WP:REDLINK, redlinks should only be removed if the page they link to has no chance of ever being created. Most of the redlinks in the prose are to county roads (esp in Durham) that don't have articles just yet. I strongly dislike removing redlinks simply because they are not blue.
  • It t'was, and then the MTO repaved its entire surface through Toronto. That may be worth mentioning. Unfortunately it's hard to source things such as traffic congestion locations and times, even with all the books on the highway, almost none mention congestion beyond the number of vehicles using the highway. However, if you can find a source that rants at the highway, we could very well integrate some into the GTA part of the route description.
  • Funny, I hadn't got to that part of your message yet, and as I typed the previous point, the exact same thought came to me. The Tilbury SC is supposed to reopen beginning in July if I'm not mistaken - I'd like to get a picture of the new centres... Preferably something vertical so it can be slipped in beside the Service Centre table.
  • Haven't been able to find a source more reliable than this posting by Cameron Bevers on Yahoo groups. It appears as though the part from 10 miles east of Prescott (@Iroquois) all the way to Lancaster began in several separate segments at the same time, and they all joined and completed the full ~75km at the same time as well. Construction started in mid 1960 and finished by 1964. The last section from Lancaster to Montreal was started in '63 or '64, and was done in time for Expo '67 (but I can only find dates for the highway out of Montreal which "connects with Ottawa, and Ontario's 401 to Kingston"). It's better to indicate a lack of knowledge than to promote potentially false information.
  • That youtube video is interesting. We have to be wary of what we link to though. Both under consideration of WP:ELNO and WP:EL, as well as the fact that we can't verify the accuracy of the videos in many cases (and they can be changed without notice).
The other youtube video definitely will be going up. If the author can, use information from the article so we don't run into problems with FAC saying the video contains unsourced "facts" - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The 2009 Worst roads was released earlier this year, so that would have happened after or during the resurfacing projects. I'm sure it wasn't just road surface that was the problem, congestion, weaving, volume, design, average speed/time, etc are all factors. Can you change the service centre chart then? Move the services from Newcastle to Woodstock and open it and close the one in Newcastle. I would but I don't know how to edit charts very well. I sent the video uploader a message regarding sources from the article and he said a lot of the stuff he got was from Wikipedia, but back in August 2009. The article was rewritten since then, right? Or was it before? Haljackey (talk) 00:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Nope, I copied my rewrite article over on March... 25th I believe. What do you mean by move the ones from Woodstock to Newcastle? I'll change the Newcastle one to closed. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
The Woodstock one is open and has the services that's described in the Newcastle one (Esso, Tim Hortons, Wendy's, Mr. Sub, Nicholby's Express), that's what I mean. Sorry if I confused you. Was the article rewritten that recently? Guess I didn't come along long after :P. It was April 18 when I contacted you for the first time. [15] Haljackey (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Found an old mid-1950's photo of Highway 401 at Warden Ave that might be of interest to you. It's on the commons: [16] Haljackey (talk) 04:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I haven't been by it myself, but there are articles saying it closed on Marc 31st[17] (and the source used in the article). Where did you find out the Newcastle one is closed? I'm trying to find a source but I can't (it was open when I went by on April 2nd, but Port Hope had closed two days earlier). I like that photo... I like it a lot. It's indescribable how much has changed. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
All I know for sure is that the Woodstock one is open, and it has every single service that's described in the Newcastle one. I'm not sure if the Newcastle one is open or closed. Glad you like the pic! Haljackey (talk) 15:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Here's an link from the MTO. It doesn't say anything about the Woodstock or Newcastle service centres being closed. After seeing this list, I'd be willing to bet that the Newcastle one is open. [18] Haljackey (talk) 16:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It only covers Phase one, which was July 2009. At least a couple were closed on March 31st, but they only seem to be advertised in local papers around their locations. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:12, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


Just purchased a bunch of Official Ontario Roadmaps off ebay. 1961, 1964, 1965, and 1968. Hopefully this will help fill in some details on the Eastern section and the Tilbury–London stretch (which I know was only 2 lanes at first, but I can't find more than thekingshighway.ca or that youtube video that verify that.
I've also gone over the article with a fine tooth comb. It looks like it's just down the Route description, especially in the GTA and somewhat in Eastern Ontario. I'm afraid if we can't find sources on the collector-express system that FAC will pick it out for sure. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like fun. I'll try to look for some more sources. We can always use google maps right? How about Google Streetview? We could use a sign that shows where the C/E system stars by the 409 denoting which lanes go where. Haljackey (talk) 18:45, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Sparingly, yes. Streetview is usually discouraged, but it's no problem to show a satellite shot to indicate the width (in lanes) and the start / end of the system. Anything beyond that would require another source. One of the sources I've come across is actually a scientific study of the system as a traffic management system... I'll try and find it to see if it describes anything (sign colours, transfers, the basketweave, etc.) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok here is some info I found.
  • This is basic and not really academic, so it might not count as a source: [19]
  • This is a powerpoint from the MTO that states Highway 401 uses a collector / express system. Could be used to source the first statement in the subsection. I'ts on page 11. [20]
  • This MTO page talks about COMPASS and it's main goal on the 401 is to provide info about the system: [21]
  • This article talks about the disadvantages of frontage roads. We might be able to incorporate it into the text. It's also a very interesting read.[22]
  • This one is good I think. It talks about problems with Toronto's freeway system and talks about the C/E system on page 17 [23]
  • From Google Maps/Streetview. Sign indicating the start of the C/E system on the eastbound 401 at the 409. [24]

Anyways hope that helps.Haljackey (talk) 19:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey, haven't heard from ya about these. Are they any good?

  • Also, I submitted this image as a candidate for a featured picture. I reverted it to it's original version so that anyone can enhance it if they so wish. I could use your support on this and from others on road wiki pages. Link: [25]. Full list of candidates here: [26].

Perhaps if it is made a featured picture it will help increase the chances of Highway 401 becoming a featured article. Haljackey (talk) 06:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The first one is actually a mirror of the former wikipedia article, the second I can't view (can you post a screenshot of that page perhaps). The third is good, but doesn't really say much on the system (was a good source on the cameras though). The fourth is a great read, but doesn't really compare frontage roads to collector-express systems (but since we too have frontage roads, I wonder if an Ontario report compares them?), so it could possibly cause some WP:SYNTH issues. The fifth one is the former gettorontomoving essay, you'll want to post that at the reliable sources noticeboard to see if it's an ok source to use.
I posted at the FPC, but I'll echo here: Its a sharp photo, but we've got photos that are so much more interesting to go for that candidacy. File:401_Overview.jpgFile:Highway_401_Night_Lapse_Busy.jpg and File:Evacuated_Highway_401.jpg would be far more likely to succeed - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I replied to your comment there. I was also considering the night shot but I really like this picture as it puts the viewer right in the driver's seat. Haljackey (talk) 15:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Looks like the pic isn't going to make it. If you want to nominate the night pic, I'll support it. The reason why I didn't choose it in the first place was because I thought Flickr images couldn't be featured pics. Haljackey (talk) 05:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how this is done, but we could add something to the "did you know?" section on the wikipedia homepage. Such as saying "did you know that Highway 401 is the busiest highway in North America?" or "Did you know that Highway 401's widest point is 18 lanes near Pearson Airport?" or "Did you know that Highway 401 has the longest collector / express system in the world?" etc. Might further increase the chances of this becoming a featured article along with the featured picture attempts. Haljackey (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

They're all separate independent processes. DYK is for new articles or articles that have been expanded five-fold in the past 5 days, so the article wouldn't be eligible for it. I'm waiting on a peer review, and then I'm going to make the nomination. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Ah I see, good luck with that! Also in order for the night pic to be a featured picture, it has to be a major component in at least two articles. You might want to add those links back. Haljackey (talk) 02:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

He's done it again: [27] Haljackey (talk) 16:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Adding this one now. Hopefully the other half is done soon to accompany it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
He said he's starting on it. I'll let you know when the annotations are complete. Haljackey (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah ha! How's this for a source for collector/express? Widening of 401 from 427 to Kipling Ave! [28] Haljackey (talk) 03:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't even mention it though. It just says its a class EA for the widening between Kipling and the 427. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Yeah after looking at it again, I think this was conducted to add an extra lane in the past, not a C/E system in the future. Haljackey (talk) 15:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

401 ideas part 3

Trying to make a three-shielded sign for the main image in the 401 article. I didn't have much success with the PNG, and the SVG file didn't display at all.

Links:

Original links to shields:

I think the one shield is ok but there's room in the template to increase the width of the image, allowing us to put the other two major shield signs in there.

I see you were the one who made the shield that's in the article right now so perhaps you could help?

Thanks in advance. Haljackey (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

This seems really unnecessary... And besides, the MC shield is no longer posted (the picture in the article isn't the best) and the HoH shield is only posted between Toronto and Trenton... not to mention there is no instance of them appearing like that. All three shields are already represented in the article. Besides, any wide image is going to have to go further down the page and cannot be the main image. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 07:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


Oh, and in addition, I got a new camera this week. It's much better than the one I used for the shots I uploaded earlier (I took the other one back because it sucked, this is the one I have now in case you care: [29]), so I'll be sure to take some shots when I'm on the road. I don't think I can get many shots from overpasses except when I'm in a car driving over it. I might be heading to Windsor a few times this summer as well.

The only decent shot I could get from an overpass is from Wellington Road overlooking the 401/402 interchange. It's pretty close to me so I should be able to take some shots while standing steady. Here are two examples, do you think they would add to the article? [30] [31] Haljackey (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll check these out in the mornin' only had a moment to pop on and I've already extended it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 07:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
lol, that's fine! Check out my comments whenever you get a chance. I am also thinking of nominating the B&W 401 pic in the propane explosion for featured picture. Who knows, the third time might be a charm! Haljackey (talk) 15:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
27 should replace or accompany (depending on space) the shot in the Dorchester Swamp. Looks like I may possibly be going to Warsaw today, so I'll try and get my passenger to take photos along the way. May stop by Port Hope to get the service station. Cheers, ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Whoa wait..27 was just an example. That's from Scott Steves (Onthighways.com) who doesnt want his photos here. I said I could get a shot like that. What do you think about the shields image I made? Feel free to touch it up. Hope you have fun on your trip! Haljackey (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, alright ya. I grabbed some today; went the opposite direction to Elora Gorge, but I got some good pics of the Hanlon Parkway and a couple of the 401. Saw the work on the c-e extension for the first time as well.
I'm not sure what you are trying to do with the images... The main image can't be wide, it should be narrow. And as I posted above, one of the shields is no longer posted and the other only along a portion of the highway, so they shouldn't just be grouped together. Perhaps adding the MC shield to the infobox (would also allow us to remove that grainy image from further down), and then we have the HoH shield on the billboard already in the article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 06:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

All right, cool. I'd like to see your pics sometime! I also saw you put the MC-freeway shield in there. Even though the HOH sign is only used for a portion of it's length, I still think it would be useful to add there as long as it doesn't stretch the infobox template. Adding that would allow us to get rid of both the MC-freeway sign picture and the HOH image.

In the spot where the HOH image is, we could eventually replace it with an image of people lining the overpasses paying they're respect to the fallen soldier(s) passing by. I'm in the process of getting one such image available for use on Wikipedia, hopefully the author will agree. Other than that the only other major image we need is a shot of a service centre under (re)construction.

In addition I took the liberty of nominating the B&W propane explosion shot as a featured picture. Could use your support. Third time's a charm! [32] Haljackey (talk) 15:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

The infobox standards at WP:HWY (as far as I remember at least) require things in the infobox apply to the entire length of the highway. Technically we shouldn't even have the Highway of Heroes name in the infobox at all. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Yay! The author of [this image has allowed me to use it on Wikipedia! I'll upload it to the commons and add it to the article. Should it replace the HOH billboard image or be an entirely new image? I'll add it separately for now, allowing you to decide weather or not you want it to replace the billboard shot. Haljackey (talk) 19:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I've cropped and colour adjusted the photo a bit so I'm going to add that. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I like it! Although it would better if just a bit more red was added to make the Canadian flags stand out a bit more. In addition, here is the HOH shield. Can that be added to the infobox alongside the 401 and MC-freeway signs? As long as it doesn't stretch the infobox, I think it would add enough to the article to allow us to remove the HOH billboard image. Haljackey (talk) 22:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I've remade the Highway of Heroes shield as an svg (the png had a white background and shadow so it wouldn't have worked). I think the new infobox looks great, so I'm going to proceed to remove the two images that are no longer necessary. I'll try adding some red to the overpass image as well. Cheers, ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:31, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Wow, looks great! Removing those two images will help reduce clutter while those shields in the infobox will retain their encyclopedic value. The only thing I noticed is that the MC-freeway sign now looks out of place as a PNG image. It just doesn't have the level of detail as the other two and it stands out being in-between them. Glad you liked my idea! Haljackey (talk) 03:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Forgot to mention that I was going to get to that shield shortly. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

A break for the hell of it

Nice! With that one remade, every junction will have a nice looking shield. Except for Allen Road. Does that highway have a trailblazer thing like the DVP, Gardiner or black creek drive?
  • Also, did you want me to get a shot of the 401/402 interchange from an overpass? Haljackey (talk) 23:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Black Creek Drive has a marker? I made the DVP one, I'll get around to the Allen in time. Forgot to add the DVP one to the exit list too. Yes, get a couple shots from different angles if you can. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Yeah the DVP trailblazer would really be cool to add to the infobox. This is the sign for Black Creek Drive that I was mentioning: [33]. Anyways it's of no use to the 401 article because it becomes highway 400 before it meets the 401, much unlike the 404/DVP/401 junction. I also think adding the ETR image next to the new 407 marker could be of some use. I would suggest testing it out sometime and see how it fits.
  • As for the overpass shots, I'll try to get some next week, but I can't guarantee I will be able to do it. Nearly got a chance to today as I drove over the overpass. I looked for a good vantage point and I think I found one. Haljackey (talk) 05:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
While we're still on the infobox, should the cities in the "cities" section be altered? Right now it lists cities along it's route that have a pop of 100k or more. I'm thinking it should be changed to the "control cities" along it's route. They are Windsor, London, Toronto, Kingston and Cornwall if I recall correctly. Sound like a good idea? Haljackey (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. The cities part is meant to show the cities serviced by the route. Ideally they'd all be there, but since there are so many I like sticking to the census areas over 100k. I wouldn't be opposed to adding Cornwall back in since its a control city, with a hidden note detailing the selection criteria. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok, just thought it might be a good idea. Also, I recently found this thread that may be of interest to you. It covers Highway 401, other 400-series highways and Canadian highways. [34] Haljackey (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Yep, been there, though haven't covered even half of the 50 odd pages of photos. If you haven't been yet, check out CANroads (you'll enjoy this post if you haven't read it before) and ONTroads at Yahoo groups. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
edit: By the way... Where did you get all the Adam Colvin photo's? Is there a gallery on Flickr? Those aerial shots are the best angles. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
My membership at CANroads has been pending for quite a long time. Guess the group owner (whoever he/she is) doesn't frequent the site too often these days to approve new members. I haven't checked out that ONTroads one, thanks for the link.
As for Adam Colvin, here's a thread containing all his pictures [35]. He also posts some of them on Flickr [36]. He has a job operating hot air balloons in London and thus he takes a lot of pics while up there. He hasn't posted any yet this year, but I did request some more pics of the 401/402 highways and he said he'll try his best to get them. Haljackey (talk) 18:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I'll take a look through them; might be some more good ones for the 401 and 402 articles. The Allen and Gardiner circles are done.[37][38] - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


Nice work! By the way, I found two more documents that may be useful to your articles. This one talks about the new Detroit/Windsor crossing's setbacks and controversy: [39] , and this one talks about Toronto's canceled highway developments: [40].

Also, should our further discussions take place on the 401 discussions page? That way we can get feedback from other editors. Your userpage is getting a little crowded too. Haljackey (talk) 03:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Also, the evacuated 401 pic has had new life breathed into it. [41] Do you think a new nomination should be made for the colour image? Haljackey (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

We should move to the 401 talk page so that others can chip in if they have something to add. I saw the nomination... I'd recommend copy&pasting a message to all the voters letting them know you changed the picture to a colour version and would really appreciate if they came and took a look at it with a fresh set of eyes. If they come back, go with it. If you wait a couple days and they don't show, it'd probably be worth a renomination. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
edit Also, did Adam Corvin give permission to use all his photos on wiki, or did you only approach him regarding the specific ones you've uploaded? There's a gold mine in thar! - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I sent a quick message to those who have not revoted since the colour image was added. Also Adam said he doesn't care if his pics are used here. Although its probably best to contact him for some photos (they are resized to 1024x768 on that thread and on Flickr, yet he sent me 1600x1200 photos of the London skyline pic and the Guy Lombardo Bridge, both of which are in the London article. Haljackey (talk) 15:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
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