Talk:Ontario Highway 401/Archive 3

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Evacuated 401 Featured Picture Candidate

Currently there are three versions of the evacuated 401 pic in the featured pic nomination. Which one should be the photo used in the article?

Original - Highway 401, the busiest highway in North America, was closed during the 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion. Only one vehicle is seen driving on its typically crowded collector / express system.
Alternative - Color.
Color edited

I like the second one but I need more opinions. You can also vote for it as a featured picture HERE. Haljackey (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Highway 401 Videos

Hey guys, what do you think of these Highway 401 videos? They might be useful to add to the article or add as an external link.

Let me know what you think. Haljackey (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The HD one always seems like its computer animated when I watch it. I'm guessing 355-399 is still the older version?
I'd like to add that first video though, it's really interesting. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Old interchange photos

I think the photo of the 400/401 interchange doesn't add much to the article, especially since we have a nice one showing the 401/DVP/404 junction. Just seems a little repetitive if you ask me.

  • I would suggest removing the photo or replace it with something more interesting, such as this one. Haljackey (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
It's a completely different interchange that no longer exists. As I've said to many others, I'd sooner remove one of the 10 pictures of the highway today than any of the historical photographs. Anyone can see the highway as it is today, but few if any remember it as it was.
There's also the benefit that it's free. The postcard view of the Spadina would be fair-use. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, I guess you could argue that because it no longer exists today it's of value to the article. But to the average viewer it will just like a standard cloverleaf, nothing special. Perhaps a comparison shot could be made to show what the junction looks like today? A link to Google Maps showing the interchange could also be an alternative.
Also, I thought you said photos from Vintagekingshighway could be uploaded? Isn't that where you got the Nelson Road photograph? Haljackey (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Yep, we can use any photo by Averill Hecht (which is any unless noted otherwise). Did one have your attention in particular?
I may consider calling some of the apartments in the area and requesting to use their rooftop for a few minutes to get some shots of the 400/401 interchange today. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:20, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I wanted the one I linked to be used. Don't know about the permissions though. [1]
Asking ppl for roof access? Now if that isn't going over the top for a Wikipedia article, then I don't know what is. :P Haljackey (talk) 17:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Like I said, I'm pretty certain this is off a postcard, but I will talk to Mike and see if he has contact info for Mr. Malecki. To me, these articles are creating a history not documented elsewhere (maybe sparingly at thekingshighways). It's just as much for myself in that respect as it is for others. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Have you seen this web page? A lot of documented stuff here, but it's all copyrighted. Still might be of some use or interest to you. [2] Haljackey (talk) 17:23, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
That website and his book (Footpaths to Freeways) are two of the primary sources for the article already :p - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Consider the cover to the 1965 Ontario road map as well showing the first 12-lane section from Avenue Road to Hogg's Hollow.[3] I have the map so I can scan a better quality version of it. (in other news I also just purchased '56, '58, '61, '62 and '64, which should help complete the picture in terms of what part was constructed when. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Featured Picture!

I am pleased to announce that Evacuated Highway 401 Color.jpg has passed the candidate nomination process and has been promoted to featured picture status and will be displayed on the main page. It should bring a lot more attention to this article during the 24 hours it is there, and could bring a lot more traffic to the article afterward. This is a step in the right direction toward grade A or featured article status.

I'm not sure when it will appear on the main page. However I would assume August 8th would be a good date as it will be the 2 year anniversary of the 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion.

(I told you third time's a charm!) :P Haljackey (talk) 15:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! I knew at least one of the photos had to be worthy.
The photo datestamp says August 10th at 8am, so I'd assume it was that morning when the explosion happened and not the 8th? If we have any say in it, that would probably be the most fitting date, but if the picture is on your watchlist you'll know for certain when it is locked from editing that it will be on the front page within 24 hours. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah you're right, it was the 10th, not the 8th. I'm looking into it and I think I can add it in any day that has a vacant featured picture section, although I may have to talk to someone who runs the featured picture thing. I'll get it sorted out.

For now however, would you perfer to have the picture go on the main page sooner than that date? Looks like June 11 is the earliest possible date I could get as of the time of this message [4].


Gah! Aug 10 is taken! Maybe Aug 9? If it can't be Aug 10 than any day is good for me. I'd like to get it up ASAP (as soon as we have a good description for it I'll submit it for picture of the day). Haljackey (talk) 20:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
July 1st. The day (most likely) that the short section (which happens to be the section pictured) was numbered Highway 401 in 1952. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:42, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Do you know for sure this is an exact date? (Source) I would assume July 1st would be showing something of Canadian origin, so even if I take the spot right now, it may be moved or removed. I'm going to start work on a caption soon. Haljackey (talk) 22:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I already stuck a placeholder there for now. I haven't found a source that says the first, just July. Highway 400 was definitely July 1st. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that justifies why the picture should appear on July 1, but to be honest I don't really care what day it appears. If you want that day you got it (unless someone kicks it out). I took a look at the caption, and it needs some serious work, especially from a grammatical standpoint. I am going to bring it over to this talk page where everyone that contributes to the article can edit it. Haljackey (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Grammar is my weakpoint. I just slapped the details together. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I really want to mention something about the collector / express system in the description, since it is shown in detail. Is there a way, or a code to get the internal link to go to the collector / express subsection in the 401 article rather than linking to the local-express lanes article? Haljackey (talk) 02:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
You could code the link to Collector-Express system to the section on Highway 401, but I wouldn't make the 401 link to the subsection of the article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:12, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok I am now going to make a list of bullet points indicating what could/should be in the caption. Not all of them may go in the final version. In addition, try to keep the caption more general. Remember that the vast majority of viewers looking at the picture and caption do not know anything about the highway.

  • Main link is Highway 401. This can be in bold. Should it be "Highway 401", "Ontario Highway 401", "King's Highway 401", or something else? (I think just calling it Highway 401 here makes the most sense as it is simple and people can find out more by clicking the link.)
  • We can say it is the Busiest Highway in North America for sure. But we might be able to say something similar to make it sound more impressive. Saying world's busiest isn't cited in the article even though this is most likely true. We could say it is one of the widest in NA/the world or the widest in Canada.
  • Mention that the highway was closed, evacuated, or blockaded/barricaded due to the 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion.
  • Mention it was the first time it was fully closed. Your caption says since 1952, but mine says 1956. Does it depend on what section we're referring to? It needs to be fixed.
  • We could put a little history in there saying that it was originally 4 lanes. However I don't think this is really needed as most new highways built in the 1950s were 4 lanes with a grassy median. In addition it has little relevance to the photograph.
  • Talking about the number of lanes in that photograph will confuse people. First off, most are unaware of how a collector / express system works, and may mistake the outer lanes as frontage roads or something. Also the lane count isn't uniform in that photo (3x4x4x4) and it changes at various points in the roadway (line break at the bottom, westbound collectors become 2 through lanes from 3, line break at the top, eastbound collectors become 3 through lanes from 4). If you're mentioning dates, just mention one. Either say today or when the widening was finished (was it 1972?).
  • Mention collector / express system as it is shown in detail. A link would work, but I think a brief explanation of how they work can be added so people know they're part of the highway and don't mistake them for frontage roads or something. Also, should the link for the collector / express system link to the local-express lanes article or the the subsection in the 401 article?
  • Talk about how this highway, or this section of highway is normally very busy. Note that this is a rare photograph. (The pic kinda reminds me of roads in North Korea, especially the grayscale version).
  • Location, location, location. Even though we're linking to the Toronto Propane Explosion we need to mention elsewhere that this is in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We could go on step further and mention that it's in Don Mills (it is, right?).
  • Toronto bypass? If mentioned it needs to be expanded a bit. Having that in there all alone will confuse people.
  • Internal links: Highway 401 (bold), 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion, local-express lanes (or collector / express subsection in 401 article), Toronto, Ontario, maybe Canada, maybe highway or freeway.

What do you think of my points? Haljackey (talk) 15:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Looking good... Not much to add myself, you covered most of it. For the links, I'd suggest avoiding Canada or Ontario, as Toronto is a major global city that most people have heard of, and Toronto, Ontario, Canada looks like one single long link as opposed to three. It wouldn't be Don Mills. This is right on a boundary. Hogg's Hollow is behind, York Mills to the right, Bayview Village to the left, and Duncan Mills forward and to the right.
We can probably skip mentioning the Toronto Bypass, in which case the date should not be 1952 (Weston to Yonge opened in December 1952, but Yonge to Bayview was a year later). I think Highway 401 should be bold, but I'm not sure if there's a requirement to avoid piping (probably not in this minor of a case). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree. So just putting Toronto will work? If so we don't even need to put it in because it's in the phrase "2008 Toronto Propane Explosion". Wow, so many places with the word Mills in it, let's not use any of that then. No mention of Toronto Bypass is what I had in mind. We could mention "This was the first time the highway was fully closed since it opened in 1952." Does that sound ok? I'm sure we can get away with Highway 401 being bold since it is the main link in the caption, the rest are minor.
Link collector / express to the local-express article? Sounds good to me, was just thinking it could go to the article as well. But that would put 2 links to the same article in the caption which I think might be frowned upon.
I'll keep tinkering around with the caption and produce a potential final result. If it receives your approval (and anyone else who wants to comment on it), I'll stick it on the caption for July 1st's Picture of the Day. Haljackey (talk) 17:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and any ideas how to briefly explain how the collector / express system works in the caption? I'm drawing a blank. Haljackey (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking linking it to the 401 section, as it is better written and more heavily sourced. Either works though. As for the C-E system description:
A wide highway with each direction divided in half. The outer lanes serve local onramp to offramp traffic, while the express lanes are designed for long distance travel.
I found a source a few days ago with a nice drawing of every lane from Martin Grove to Markham... But I've lost it. Had to do with the $401 million to upgrade the highway in Toronto beginning in ~2005. There's a very small part of the larger drawing in the source I threw below. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:02, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok I did some work and made a potential final caption. I think the last sentence could still use some work. Feel free to edit it. Once you think it is ready let me know here and I'll add it to the Picture of the Day on July 1. Haljackey (talk) 18:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Nice job with the caption edit! Should carriageway really be linked? Haljackey (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think most people would be familiar with the term. It's known in Europe, but not well in America (except among roadgeeks of course). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I added the caption to the Picture of the Day. Check my comment below in the C/E references section if you haven't already. Haljackey (talk) 00:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Featured Picture Caption

Caption 1 (rough)

A rare photograph of Ontario Highway 401, North America's busiest freeway, empty but for one car. As a result of a propane explosion on August 10, 2008 in Toronto, this portion of the highway was closed to all vehicles except emergency services and residents evacuating the area. This section was under construction when the Toronto Bypass was designated Highway 401 in July 1952. It would open with only two lanes in each direction but then widened to its current width of twelve to fourteen lanes between 1963 and 1972.Kenny Louie
Archive – More featured pictures...

Category:Wikipedia Picture of the day July 2010

Caption 2 (rough)

Highway 401, the busiest highway in North America, had a portion of it's length closed in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, during the 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion. It was the first time the highway has been fully closed since the Toronto Bypass opened in 1956. This rare photograph shows only one vehicle traveling on it's typically crowded collector / express system, which is designed to handle the route's heavy traffic volumes.Kenny Louie
Archive – More featured pictures...

Category:Wikipedia Picture of the day July 2010

Potential Final Caption (Take from above attempts to generate a final copy)

Highway 401, the busiest highway in North America, had part of its route closed during the 2008 Toronto Propane Explosion. It was the first time the highway has been fully closed since it opened to traffic in 1952. This rare photograph shows only one vehicle driving on its typically crowded collector-express system, which divides each direction of travel into two parallel carriageways. The design handles the highway's high volumes by separating local and long distance traffic movements, making it safer and more efficient than a standard highway layout.Kenny Louie
Archive – More featured pictures...

Category:Wikipedia Picture of the day July 2010


Please DO NOT add comments to this section. Please use the "Featured Picture!" section for all comments. Haljackey (talk) 01:43, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources for C-E system

Just adding them here as I find them.


-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Found some more documents, might be useful (not all about C/E system).

Haljackey (talk) 18:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

That first one was what I was looking for. Even though its hosted at Yahoo groups, it's a Government of Ontario work and so it should pass as a reliable source. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:16, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I also came across this document which may be a good read. Has a good image of the C/E system and an advantage I-75 image. They are found in the links below. If you can get the licensing sorted out, feel free to use them.

Haljackey (talk) 21:43, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

They'd both be copyrighted and there isn't a valid reason for making them fair-use. Found a few more sources though. This one actually describes the lane configuration succinctly:

-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Ooooh boy, this one is a doosey. Its the environmental assessment for the reconstruction of the 427, but it shows some good design details for the 401 as well (and half of the major 400 highways).[12][13] - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
A diverging diamond on Highway 427? Cool! Too bad the plan doesn't say anything about the 401/427 interchange... the overpasses need to be extended/remade to support a wider 401 underneath. Haljackey (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I think the MTO is afraid of that junction. Hopefully they'll rebuild it when the main overpasses reach the end of their life in 5-10 years. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Found a newspaper article that could be useful as a source. Talks about Widening from Woodstock to K/W and states planned widening from Highway 402 to Highway 4. [14] Haljackey (talk) 15:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's almost ready for FA. We need to find sources for the following, or comment them out if nothing can be found:
  • "East of Highway 400 is The Basketweave, a criss-crossing transfer between the express and collectors carriageways." - a source that simply states the existence of the three basketweaves on the 401 would suffice here I think.
  • "This gives the highway a wide span and four carriageways, which are typically divided by tall wall or corrugated steel median barriers and paved inner and outer shoulders." - need a source for the paved shoulders and median barriers
  • "At Pickering, the highway again meets the former Highway 2, which parallels the 401's route to the Quebec border. As the highway approaches Brock Road in Pickering, the collector and express lanes converge, narrowing the fourteen lane cross-section to ten, divided only at the centre. It remains this width as it passes into Ajax, before narrowing back to six lanes at Salem Road." - need at least one source here, preferably for the "fourteen lanes to ten" bit.
  • "At Harmony Road, the suburban surroundings are quickly replaced by agricultural land." - I need to get one of those Ontario or Canadian atlases that shows the agricultural land usage and the geography (Ideally a small one exists covering Southern Ontario on its own, somewhere).
  • "Unlike the collectors lanes, which provide access to every interchange, the express lanes only provide direct access to a select few." - This one will be a joy.
  • "The overall purpose of the 401's collector-express system is to maximize traffic flow for both local and long-distance traffic. However, the MTO also takes advantage of the ability to close one set of lanes, funnelling traffic away from the carriageway where construction work is to take place." - The first part should be easy, and the second not a huge loss if it is cut.
Sources would be ideal for these lines:
  • "To avoid confusion on signs along the collector and express carriageways, the 401 uses blue signs over the collector lanes and green signs over the express lanes" - the picture makes this hard to contest, but a source would prevent bickering.
  • "This system primarily serves to accommodate and organize various traffic movements from the Highway 403 / 410 and Highway 427 interchanges along Highway 401." - I think "The Story" by John Shragge mentions this, I'll double check.
After these are sourced, I'm ready to make the nomination. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:16, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


Wouldn't Google Maps and whatnot suffice for a lot of these sources? Of course it isn't the best thing to reference, but if nothing else can be found, it seems like a solution. Anyway here are my comments.
  • "East of Highway 400 is The Basketweave, a criss-crossing transfer between the express and collectors carriageways." - a source that simply states the existence of the three basketweaves on the 401 would suffice here I think.
  • There are a lot of traffic reports that say "401 moving well east of Basketweave" and whatnot. This is a direct point on the roadway. In addition traffic cameras near here are labeled "Basket Weave".
  • We can easily cut out the other two basketweaves as they aren't as important. I believe the one near the 427 is called "Tunnel" on the traffic cameras.
  • "This gives the highway a wide span and four carriageways, which are typically divided by tall wall or corrugated steel median barriers and paved inner and outer shoulders." - need a source for the paved shoulders and median barriers
  • Just say 4 carriageways then. A picture will show the medians and shoulders. I'm perfectly fine with having this cut out.
  • "At Pickering, the highway again meets the former Highway 2, which parallels the 401's route to the Quebec border. As the highway approaches Brock Road in Pickering, the collector and express lanes converge, narrowing the fourteen lane cross-section to ten, divided only at the centre. It remains this width as it passes into Ajax, before narrowing back to six lanes at Salem Road." - need at least one source here, preferably for the "fourteen lanes to ten" bit.
  • Google Maps will help out here. It clearly shows how many lanes the highway has and how Highway 2 parallels it along with the rail line.
  • "At Harmony Road, the suburban surroundings are quickly replaced by agricultural land." - I need to get one of those Ontario or Canadian atlases that shows the agricultural land usage and the geography (Ideally a small one exists covering Southern Ontario on its own, somewhere).
  • Again, Google Maps? May not be the most up to date thing as the urban area is growing, but will show good contrast.
  • "Unlike the collectors lanes, which provide access to every interchange, the express lanes only provide direct access to a select few." - This one will be a joy.
  • GOOGLE MAPS. It clearly shows the express lanes only junctioning with big interchanges and collector transfers. Perhaps finding an academic document or a thesis on Highway 401 might be of some use here. I go to UWO, and can check the Map Library sometime for some relevant documents. (There are more than maps there.) Might be able to work something out next week.
  • "The overall purpose of the 401's collector-express system is to maximize traffic flow for both local and long-distance traffic. However, the MTO also takes advantage of the ability to close one set of lanes, funnelling traffic away from the carriageway where construction work is to take place." - The first part should be easy, and the second not a huge loss if it is cut.
  • Chop that last part out. It doesn't really matter. Any document talking about the C/E system should say something about it's purpose.
Sources would be ideal for these lines:
  • "To avoid confusion on signs along the collector and express carriageways, the 401 uses blue signs over the collector lanes and green signs over the express lanes" - the picture makes this hard to contest, but a source would prevent bickering.
  • Duh. A picture says a thousand words here. Any document talking about the C/E system should say something about the different coloured signage as well.
  • "This system primarily serves to accommodate and organize various traffic movements from the Highway 403 / 410 and Highway 427 interchanges along Highway 401." - I think "The Story" by John Shragge mentions this, I'll double check.
  • If not, don't worry about it. Google Maps can show the design of this section and how ramps are used to connect the 401/403/410/427 together in this wide corridor.

If I find any more documents that could potentially be used as sources, I'll let you know. Haljackey (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I know Google Maps can source most of it... But reviewers may cry WP:SYNTH on some of it. Given that they have a civil engineering program there, there should bee a crapload of technical documents related to the 401.
  • Soils
  • [northarrow_class[0]_style[0]=ANGLE%20-14.34352967655704&mapsize=525%20466&urlappend= Toporama merging of carriageways]

"The Basketweave" appears on my Golden Horseshoe mapbook, so I can cite it to that. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

And that does it (I think). I'm ready!
Making the nomination now. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:08, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh geesh, good luck! Do you have a link to the nomination? Haljackey (talk) 19:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

here it is. I wouldn't just throw a support vote on though, as it's much more of an objective process than the featured picture candidacy. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Nah, just want a link for now to see how it goes. Thanks! Haljackey (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Need the link for where File:401wardenold.jpg came from. I figure its from the Ontario or Toronto archives based on the look of it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Nope, it's from Picasa. There isn't much info about it to begin with. Here is the link: [15]
The article is getting creamed out there! However I do recall you expected it to get butchered, lol. Haljackey (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Yep, I saw it coming. It's such a big article that there are bound to be lots of mistakes. I've removed the Picasa pic since it claims no derivatives may be made. I replaced it with the ol' plaque. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Aww that sucks. Can't use dec work here? I'm sure if you contact the person who uploaded he/she might allow it for use here. It's a timeless photo, and it's actually in colour to boot! Haljackey (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Windsor-Essex Parkway

Is this going to be a section of the 401, or a new highway connecting the 401 to the new bridge? I was wondering if it should have its own separate article. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The Windsor-Essex Parkway will be part of Highway 401. As of right now, the 401 starts at exit/km marker 15 or something around there. The parkway would complete the last few kilometres of the route. The name Windsor-Essex Parkway I would assume would be it's secondary name like MC-Freeway, Highway of Heroes, Toronto Bypass, etc. Right now it's a subsection in the article, but I could see a whole section being made about it, but not a new article. Haljackey (talk) 19:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Then add the new exits to the exit list table? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
If we know what they are :P Haljackey (talk) 21:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
There are detailed design plans, but no listed exit numbers. As for the designation, there is no concrete evidence that it will be part of Highway 401 at all; the province may surprise us yet. However, that rare chance aside, it is very likely the new highway will be part of the 401. For now it is simply an extension of it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Ontario Highway 401/Archive 3/GA1

Reference 41

Reference 41 to "The Story of Highway 401" has a problem. The article by Shragge doesn't use citations. There is a page of sources on the archived web site, and those sources are probably what should be used instead of Shragge's article. Maybe I don't know his credentials, but I think this is a case where a secondary source is being used instead of a primary source, and you cannot tell if his article is correct. What do you think? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 03:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Um, secondary sources are preferred over primary sources, but in this case it is a self-published source so care is needed. If the referenced material can be sourced differently, that would be preferable. Imzadi 1979 → 04:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Agree. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 15:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Shragge is a former employee of the MTO and a renowned road historian in Ontario. He's been published in The Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail because of his qualifications and he is one of the two authors of the Ministry book From Footpaths to Freeways. The G&M article that accredits him is also a source, but I'm lazy right now. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 04:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say you couldn't use the source, I said "care was needed". If you can replace the source with better sources, that would be a good idea. That's always a good idea no matter what the source, actually. Imzadi 1979 → 04:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I was just letting Alaney know, as I'm not sure he is aware that it has been checked out at WP:RSN and deemed a reliable source. Obviously I'd prefer official documents, but his website is one of the best secondary sources we have on the topic as it stands. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 04:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
If you can find out more about when he has written in those papers, I could look up those articles for citations. In the case of the newspapers, there are editors, where there are none for web sites. Anyone can make mistakes. Maybe I'll look up the book at the library. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 15:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I'd be happy to scan pages 93 and 94 of Footpaths to Freeways (the chapter on Highway 401). Here are newspaper articles referring to him.[16][17][18]
I'm just saying that this more than meets the criteria of a published professional receiving coverage for his work by multiple reliable sources. There are far more pressing changes needed to the article before setting out on finding equivocal sources (at least for me). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
No doubt. The book was not in TPL. Is it something you can get from MTO? His name did come up in newspaper articles through the TPL web site, though I did not find anything to replace any of the cites from his website. Since it is an archived site, the replacements should be done, anyway. I was really just hoping there were some MTO docs instead of the private site. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

MacDonald-Cartier Freeway

I drive the 401 a lot. I don't see M-C trailblazers anymore. Is it really still named the Macdonald-Cartier Freeway anymore? Just puzzled more than anything, though someone else may ask. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it still is even though it isn't signed anymore. Go on Google maps, the name appears everywhere. Haljackey (talk) 20:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you see it on the MTO official map? Maybe I've missed it, but I see other highway names there. E.g. for 416. I was wondering if it was a consequence of the PQ being elected in Quebec 'back in the day.' I also could not find it in a search on the MTO site. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
They stopped adding new signs in the 1990s. I haven't heard the designation being rescinded, but I know it was never passed into law and therefore it doesn't need to be. As a note, on the official Ontario road map, it is NOT labelled as the Macdonald-Cartier Freeway - However, Highway 416 is labelled the Veterans Memorial Highway. I think it is no longer officially known by that name. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
EDIT: Also, add a publisher to the citation you added Alaney or I'll get hell when I go back to FAC. Cheers, - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:49, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You're gearing up for another FA nom? Have a date yet? While we're on the MacDonald-Cartier Freeway topic how is that M-C Freeway sign coming? Haljackey (talk) 04:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Not at the moment. My computer crashed badly a month or so ago and I just got Windows up and runnings again. No Flash yet. AS for the FAC, no planned date yet, but he added an offline source that would be a pain to find the publisher for. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Service Centres

From what I've been reading, several of the closed service centres reopened on July 1. I can't find any decent sources to back this up, so if anybody comes across one... - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

At Woodstock there is a Westbound Service Centre that's open and an Eastbound Service Centre that's closed for reconstruction. The table is confusing, and seems to imply that that Westbound Centre is closed. I have no source, just original research (I drove by there yesterday). 152.135.235.188 (talk) 22:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
No, wait! According to http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/service-centres/questions-and-answers.shtml the westbound centre is called Ingersoll and it's open; the eastbound one is called Woodstock and it's closed. Despite the fact that they're less than 2 km apart. The table is still confusing and, I believe, mistaken. The Westbound and Eastbound notations should be swapped, and the Ingersoll Westbound centre should be shown as Open. But I'll leave that for a less anonymous editor to consider, for the moment. 23:06, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
You're right. Now that you mention it, the eastbound one is called Woodstock (which is closed) and the westbound one is called Ingersoll (which is open). There are no other service stations on the 401 between Highway 402 and 403. Reference 159 is not working. In reference 160 they're talking about the eastbound centre. How very confusing. Haljackey (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

This is what the westbound station looks like. Note it's pretty modern and doesn't look like the old ones being replaced. [19] (From Google earth)

  • I don't want to fiddle with the chart (code is very confusing to me) so I'll wait for Floydian to comment here before we make any changes. Haljackey (talk) 02:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks for correcting my edit there. Is everything correct now? Haljackey (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

TheKingsHighway

Hey, I heard we are allowed to use images from vingagekingshighways, but how about thekingshighway? Found some neat historical images from both sites that could be of great use.

Anyways, what do you think? Since the 401/400 image was removed I think we have room for another. Also the 401/Nelision Road image could also be replaced with something more interesting.

Also, how is the MC-Freeway SVG sign coming along? Haljackey (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

It is not still. I haven't had flash since my computer crashed, and lately it has been rather wonky, but I will eventually get to it.
Images by Cameron Bevers cannot be used. Personally I have been removing all linkage to his website off wikipedia. His attitude is atrocious and frankly he can keep to his little corner while we build the reliable sourced history of Ontario highways. Historic images published by a person must be 1949 or older. Historic images published in an archive or by a ministry/department must be over 50 years old (so todays date in 1960). Finally, only photos by Averill Hecht on vintagekingshighways can be used. Effectively all of those pictures except the big sign would be copyright. I was thinking of replacing the Neilson image with any of the following images (which one do you think?), as the difference is much more noticeable to an average non-roadgeek.
All 1989 in Scarborough
-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. #2 or 3 work best in my opinion as it shows a major difference compared to today. (More lanes, additional carriageways, high mast lighting, new overpasses, new medians, etc) Haljackey (talk) 00:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

401 Service Stations

Read this in the newspaper today. Could this be a good source to use? Highway service centres re-opening after long overhaul Haljackey (talk) 23:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It says four but only mentions two :( I find it amusing that commenting is already closed after less than a day. Oh well, it's good for West Lorne and Dutton. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I also found this:

External image
Hi-res cutaway diagram of Boeing 747-100
image icon Hi-res cutaway diagram of Boeing 747-100 by Flight International

Will be of good use if you have some images that are of value to the article but can't be displayed here due to copyright issues and whatnot. Not sure if you knew it existed... I didn't until 10 mins ago! Haljackey (talk) 05:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

New 401 Photographs

Just came back from a trip from Windsor, and snapped a few photos along the way.

  • A new "ONroute" service station in west Lorne: [20]
  • One of the new "ONroute" service stations near Tilbury. This one also has a Ontario Welcome Centre (eastbound only): [21]
  • The 6 lane concrete 401 near Tilbury. Just a little east of here it narrows to 4 asphalt lanes with a grass median [22]
  • Another shot of the 6 lane concrete 401 with one of those "Don't do this... it Kills!" signs: [23]
  • Highway 401 / Dougal Parkway interchange, it's being widened and realligned in preperation for the Windsor-Essex Parkway: [24]

Let me know if any of these photos are useful to add to the article and I'll upload the full size images. Haljackey (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a comment, but even if they're not directly added to the article, they can be added to Commons and use a {{commonscat}} to link them into the article that way. Imzadi 1979 → 03:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
That second photo is perfect for the services section. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Oooh Boy! Photos!

So I went on a drive yesterday. I vowed that I would get pictures, and I did. So without further ado:

  • 18 laned Highway 401
    18 laned Highway 401
  • 401 and 427 interchange facing east
    401 and 427 interchange facing east
  • The Highway 401/403/410 interchange facing east, with grading in the foreground
    The Highway 401/403/410 interchange facing east, with grading in the foreground
  • New basketweave under construction east of Hurontario
    New basketweave under construction east of Hurontario

Enjoy! My face lit up when I saw the scale of what they're doing. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Geesh that's construction's huge! Thanks for sharing the photos, I like the third one the best! From what I heard, many motorists think the construction looks like an entirely new highway is being built to the side of the 401. Thing is since both of the new carriageways (going from 2 to 4 for C/E) are being built one side rather than one on either side I'll agree with them.
Still the project's pretty short and will serve only one interchange (Highway 10). Although I'm sure when this foundation is in place they'll continue adding lanes towards the 407 and hopefully HOVs to Milton or K/W. Haljackey (talk) 05:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I think it comes down to the Credit River bridge. If that is widened as part of this, it will certainly press west in the future. If not, we may be waiting for a while still. The HOV's to Highway 25 are in the 2008 plan, so they're probably well past EA now. I'm going to see if I can integrate any of these to the article.
If you check closely, you'll see they put lights up on the south side of the highway, but that they are a good 15 feet off to the side of it. I imagine the traffic will be moved onto the new road once its completed and the current highway will be rebuilt (similar to the process they used in Pickering, except to one side instead of in the middle). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Saw you switched some photos in the article. In my opinion, picture 3 shows the construction better than picture 4 (also the caption is way too long) and is much clearer. The original 18 lane picture was clearer as well and I think it should be restored. Haljackey (talk) 15:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree about the construction shot / caption (I chose the fourth only because of the new basketweave (I'm going to see if the guys at photography workshop can remove the power lines though, if that's your main contention). As for the widest point, I disagree. The original is much lower to the ground and only really shows a single carriageway. Mine shows the wide span better and you can actually count all the lanes if you look closely. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, you convinced me for the 18 lane picture, but I still like the other construction shot. The photo is simply brighter and more colourful and it shows the impressive flyover from 401 to 410. Plus, there are no wires or obstruction. It's simply a cleaner looking image. That's my argument, but you can use whichever photo you want. Haljackey (talk) 17:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and I really like this photo of the 401 you have on flickr. [25] Any chance of adding that one to the article? Haljackey (talk) 23:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ontario Highway 401/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dough4872 02:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    Try not to use "The 401" to refer to the road as that is a colloquial term, only mention that the road is called that colloquially. "105 km/h" near the end of the third paragraph of the route description needs a conversion to miles per hour. Avoid using colloquial phrases such as "The 401 then winds towards Kitchener and Cambridge", "East of Kitchener, the highway meanders towards Milton", and "The highway swings south of Bowmanville and towards Highway 35 and Highway 115" The sentence "Highway 401 swells to a total of eighteen through lanes south of Toronto's International Airport." sounds awkward. There are a few one- and two-sentence paragraphs in the History and Future sections, these should be combined with other paragraphs. The sentence "Most of the interchanges in Toronto were also reconstructed as partial cloverleafs, as well as a continuous lighting system." sounds awkward and incomplete. "8 am" and "8 pm" are violationd of WP:MOSDATE and need to be fixed, it should be "8 a.m." and "8 p.m." Why is there a random fragment "The entire width of"? Was something cut off here? In the services section, the table mentioning plaza opening uses seasons. This assumes the reader is in the Northern Hemisphere and needs to be changed to provide a worldwide view.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Citations needed for the following: "East of Kitchener, the highway meanders towards Milton, passing through the hills and cut rock along the way.", "This final piece was commemorated with a plaque to signify the "completion" of the 401.", "and include a smaller reassurance marker (shield) with a poppy and the text "Highway of Heroes" in place of a number, as well as a larger billboard version with English and French text.", "This included significant reconstruction of the Wellington Road interchange, allowing for a future widening of Highway 401, compared with the old overpass built in 1956 that could only support four lanes."
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Can some more information about the physical environment the route passes through be added to the Southwestern Ontario section of the route description?
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    The caption "Highway 401 between London and Ingersoll features rolling terrain, yet remains straight and generally unengaging." sounds awkward, can it be reworded? In File:401 construction phases.svg, some parts of the road are marked having an opening date of "????". Can this possibly be explained? Maybe this can be labeled as "unknown" or "other" instead.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
I am placing the article on hold to allow for fixes. Dough4872 02:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your review Dough, and giving me the chance to fix up the problems. If you don't mind, I'm going to hold off editing this article tonight. I'm on vacation this weekend so I'll be back to make fixes starting Tuesday. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
And one question as well before I go away... For one of the sentences you asked for citations for (the plaque), does that sentence need a citation when there is a picture of said plaque (with all the verifying details written on it) beside it? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 12:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
In this case, a picture in the article MAY be able to serve to provide verification. However, I would suggest trying to look for a source that also makes a mention of the plaque, such as a newspaper article. Dough4872 23:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I believe most of the fixes (besides the picture showing the opening dates) have been made. The picture I will try to update in the next day or two. Let me know if I missed anything. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You forgot to convert the 105 km/h, however, I fixed it. I have also tweaked some other rephrasings to make the article flow better. However, i also noticed that references 100-102 and 108, 109, and 113 are bare URL references. These need to be fixed before I can pass the article. Dough4872 00:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Yep, they are recent additions by another editor. I'm going to go fix those up right now. Cheers, ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 07:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Now that the references are fixed, I will pass the article pending that the history map gets fixed. Dough4872 14:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Highway of Heroes?

Is it true, that Highway 401 is called The Highway of Heroes, because of honouring the fallen soldiers? --Redneck Girl (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

German Article

yes it is Official called that for a portion on the roadway (this was done recently) - just as Ontario Highway 416 is Officially called Veterans Memorial Highway Moxy (talk) 16:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Yep, though that article seems to imply that it is only for Afghanistan, when it is for all repatriated soldiers. It's only called this for the central portion between Toronto and Trenton (west of Kingston) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps we could clarify this fact ..say something like ...The stretch of highway was created to honor all fallen solders past and present etc,,, something like that.Moxy (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
It's called Highway of Heroes to pay respect to fallen Canadian soldiers. It isn't more specific as that, but you could say it's more heavily rooted in the War on Terror because the 401 was designated this during the war. I would like to see poppys planted and landcaping done along this route to make it a more memorable drive. Haljackey (talk) 00:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
@Moxy: The first sentence of the Highway of Heroes section reads "On August 24, 2007, the MTO announced that the stretch of Highway 401 between Glen Miller Road in Trenton and the intersection of the Don Valley Parkway and Highway 404 in Toronto would bear the additional name Highway of Heroes, in honour of Canada's fallen servicemen and servicewomen,[110]..." - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Adding to the Major Junctions list

I know the major junctions list is usually short to keep the infobox short, but I think an exception might need to be made for Highway 401. It's the backbone of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor and thus needs to be identified as the main, and major, connecting route through this area. Many highways (such as in the US) have several major highways that run parallel across a region as vast as the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, but due to the region's geography (like the Great Lakes), all these routes are squeezed into the 401.

I think a longer list of the major junctions will help justify the 401's importance, and will help show it's a connecting links in areas outside of the GTA where most of the junctions on the list are now. Haljackey (talk) 03:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's a list of candidates to add to the list:

  • Dougall Parkway
  • Highbury Avenue
  • Veterans Memorial Parkway
  • King Street / Highway 8
  • Hanlon Parkway / Highway 6
  • Highway 2A
  • Highway 35 / 115
  • Sir John A. MacDonald Boulevard
  • Thousand Islands Parkway
  • Highway 137

Just throwing the idea out. Let me know what you think. Haljackey (talk) 03:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the limit is pretty hard set. Interstate 95 and Interstate 10 follow this convention. As it stands, the infobox is already very long for the 401, so anything we can do to keep it shorter benefits the spacing of the article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 05:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
The infobox shouldn't justify the importance or notability of the article's subject, the article itself should. Remember that the infobox, like the lead, should be a concise summary of the article, and you have all of those items listed in the junction list at the bottom of the article already . Imzadi 1979 → 07:37, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

A Class?

Do you think this article is ready for a A-class nomination? Achieving this milestone will certainly give the article a better chance at it's next shot as a featured article. Haljackey (talk) 04:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I've been re-reading the prose and cleaning up over the last couple of days in preperation. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Awesome! Going from Ontario Highway 401 to Ontario Highway 401 will really help it achieve Ontario Highway 401! :P Haljackey (talk) 22:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Any plans to renominate this article for A-Class? I came across an old review that Floydian withdrew [26]. Perhaps if we give the A-class review another go it might succeed. I believe this article deserves it. Haljackey (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I was waiting on the guys at WP:USRD to set up the CRWP A-Class review. I'll ask them what's left to be done tomorrow. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 07:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Awesome. Found the link to the review page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:USRD/ACR. Feel free to nominate this article when you feel it's ready. Haljackey (talk) 03:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Highway 401 now 6 lanes from Woodstock to K-W

According to this article, Highway 401 is now 6 lanes between Woodstock and K-W. http://www.lfpress.com/comment/2010/12/03/16421491.html

This makes the highway 6 lanes all the way from Highway 402 to 410.

That means the section about the widening in the article should be moved from "Future-Southwestern Ontario" to "Recent history", correct? Haljackey (talk) 20:02, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

From discussions I've seen, there is no pavement on two lanes. That been said, WP:V only mentions verification, not what is "actually the truth", so in it goes :)
And yes, since the whole project is complete now it should be moved to the Recent section (which may need to be divided soon). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:02, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Well if you want do divide it up did you want to add this info to the article? No sense me mucking it up and then you having to sift through it. Haljackey (talk) 00:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Never hurts; you learn best by trying and experimenting. I've been super busy with school so I doubt I'll have a chance for another few days anyways. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:05, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Tell me about it. I'm in crunch week and as of yesterday I won't be of much help. After all these assignments are projects are due, I'm into exams then getting my wisdom teeth out then gotta do Christmas shopping and whatnot. December is always a crazy month lol. Haljackey (talk) 04:11, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Eastern Ontario

Highway 401 does not cross over the Canadian Shield at Cobourg. A portion of the Canadian Shield geographic region does appear near Kingston. The hilly region in Northumberland County south and west of the Trent River is the result of glacial deposits including the Oak Ridges Moraine and the Peterborough Drumlin Field. Not a huge deal but this should be accurate. --Jkentrandall (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

You are right. I overlooked the Trent basin topography map[27] and that whole area is in the paleozoic region. Probably will take the whole sentence out; there won't be any source validating that the ORM or the drumlin field reach far south of Rice Lake. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

New Featured Picture nomination.

I've nominated File:Highway 401 from Wellington Road in London, Looking West Towards Highway 402.jpg [28] for featured picture. If this article has more images that the site deems "valuable" it might increase the chances of this article becoming A or FA class. I could use your feedback for this one! Link is here: [29] (scroll down until you find it). My thanks in advance! Haljackey (talk) 06:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Well it didn't succeed but it did get a nice retouch. Looks even better now! This article could use a lot more quality images. Haljackey (talk) 05:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • It seems almost impossible to get highway photos that qualify as interesting to them normal folk. Solution: more roadgeeks. I was thinking of adding a gallery section at the bottom so a few more photos can be added without crowding the prose. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 06:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
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