Talk:Osama bin Laden/Archive 20

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Archive 15 ← Archive 18 Archive 19 Archive 20

Category "John F. Kennedy conspiracy theorists"

Why is he in that cat? The article does not say. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:30, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Ah! Beliefs and ideology of Osama bin Laden. Bit weird in effect, but okay, I guess. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-protected-confirmed request

Considering most of the Middle Eastern articles that are extended-protected-confirmed, I think the admins should extend-protect-confirm this article, but that's just my thoughts. Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 18:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

There is very little edit-warring in the article about Osama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 13:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2020

Can we at least change the name of the section “Allegations of Pakistan-support protection of bin Laden” to something that’s at least grammatically correct? 2600:387:5:80D:0:0:0:48 (talk) 16:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC) 2600:387:5:80D:0:0:0:48 (talk) 16:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Not done for now. I think that would be good; please feel free to offer a suggestion. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

"UbL" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect UbL. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 15:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

"Obama bin Laden" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Obama bin Laden. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 10:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

"Obama Bin Laden" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Obama Bin Laden. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:19, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Ideas surrounding bin Laden's "years of service" in the infobox

I understand Wikipedia's NPOV principle does come into play for this discussion, and that the current infobox is simply a template for military figures, but as bin Laden is a self-admitted terrorist and jihadist directly responsible for thousands of deaths, is it right to call his "years of service" that, considering the distinction of honor the phrase, or just the word "service" carries? Perhaps an alternative, even more neutral, might be "years active". Additionally, he was not fighting for any recognized government, he was not "serving" anyone except his followers. Matt.syl (talk) 20:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

"USama Bin Laden" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect USama Bin Laden. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 28#USama Bin Laden until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 12:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

"Osama Mohamed BINLADIN" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Osama Mohamed BINLADIN. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 28#Osama Mohamed BINLADIN until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 12:20, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2020

The place where he died,the amusement park budget conversion is wrong..$2.7 million is only approximately R35 million NOT R265 million! El Chapo Byron (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 04:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Subjectivity in Article

The section describing Osama bin Laden's political beliefs implies that Osama bin Laden hates the U.S. government without reason. This is immediately after referencing a personal source, so perhaps this was supposed to be in quotes. In any event, as it is now, the subjectivity of that statement seems untenable for a history article over a contentious topic on wikipedia. Possible misinterpretation, though. 68.198.33.17 (talk) 23:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

parents

Is there a reason his parents aren't listed? it seems like very basic info to be missing for someone so well known? Irtapil (talk) 04:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Potential Pronoun Confusion

In the final sentence of the opening section, which begins "Under his leadership," there is the possibility of pronoun confusion. This "his" could be seen as referring to "President Barack Obama" (from the preceding sentence). I suggested revising "Under his leadership" to "Under bin Laden's leadership."

Echristopherclark (talk) 12:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)E. Christopher Clark

 Done (CC) Tbhotch™ 20:07, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2021

I think you should add that Osama Bin Laden was a person of commitment becuase he was a commited person to the al queda annd he was dedicated for its forming. He was also commited to keeping the al queda safe and under his control. These are my reasons why he should be named a person of commitment. Bigmanpaul12323 (talk) 10:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: partially because we don't include views and commentary, (this is an encyclopaedia we include verifiable statements attributed to reliable sources) but mostly because what on earth does that mean. --Paul ❬talk❭ 14:30, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Osama bin Laden death cause wrong

Osama bin Laden's death cause is by blasting of a grenade in a secret subway. Cokeah (talk) 09:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2021

USSRSoviettypeguy (talk) 16:14, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I would like to put the fact that Osama was not just a terrorist he was a Jihad activist which Jihad meaning the fight against sin or non islam.

This is discussed in the article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2021

Change "Usāmah bin Muḥammad bin Awaḍ bin Lādin" to "ʔusāmā bin Muḥammad bin ʕawaḍ bin Lādin" 5.29.26.18 (talk) 19:45, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:39, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Question regarding the photograph

Is a smiling photograph of the individual really appropriate ? Wouldn't a more neutral picture be best suited to this article ? I understand the current picture might be the only one available due to licensing restrictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.167.56.164 (talk) 05:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Broken link to 1998 United States embassy bombings

latest edit broke the link to 1998_United_States_embassy_bombings in the 'late 1990s attacks' section

Fixed. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Whereabouts after 9/11

Today we know by far more about bin Laden's whereabouts after 9/11 not mentioned in the article.

  • According to The Washington Post, the US government concluded that Osama bin Laden was present during the Battle of Tora Bora, Afghanistan in late 2001... It is certain that bin Laden was in Tora Bora, this could be worded way clearer here.
Bergen, Peter (2006). The Osama bin Laden I Know: An Oral History of al Qaeda’s Leader. New York: The Free Press. p. 328–336. ISBN 978-0-7432-9592-5.

November 14, 2001. Mujahid Sheikh Osama bin Laden and his special group arrived to the area 9,000 feet above sea level in the Tora Bora mountains with its extreme terrain and cold weather. We were with him.

A radio transmission by bin Laden had been intercepted.
Stenersen, Anne (2017). Al-Qaida in Afghanistan. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 177. ISBN 978-1-107-42776-1.

Al-Qaida must also have lost confidence. The Arab fighters who gathered to fight the Americans in Tora Bora and in Kandahar Airport in December 2001 did not stand a chance against the superior US airpower. Bin Laden’s pessimism at the height of the Tora Bora campaign shines through in the will he wrote during the battle, and in radio conversations intercepted by the United States. “I’m sorry for getting you involved in this battle, if you can no longer resist, you may surrender with my blessing,” was allegedly Bin Laden’s last words to his fighters.

See also Fury, Dalton (2008). Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander’s Account of the Hunt for the World’s Most Wanted Man. New York: St. Martin’s Griffin. p. 233–234. ISBN 978-0-312-56740-8.
  • After 9/11 many authors wrote he escaped to Pakistan after the battle of Tora Bora. In fact, bin Laden escaped together with Zawahiri to a village in Kunar Province.
Sands, Chris; Fazelminallah, Qazizai (2019). Night Letters: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and the Afghan Islamists Who Changed the World. London: Hurst & Company. pp. 405–408, 413–425. ISBN 978-0-199-32798-0.

For years afterwards US military and intelligence officials would speculate that bin Laden wriggled free from Tora Bora by crossing the border into Pakistan. Instead, he travelled back into an area supposedly under the control of the CIA-supported Northern Alliance. Clambering down from the mountains in the dark with two of his sons and Zawahiri, he reached a village in Wazir Tangi, a narrow valley corridor in the districts of Khogyani and Pachir Wa Agam, south of Jalalabad. [...] After five hours’ hard driving on a dirt road, they reached Asadabad, where Gul transferred bin Laden and Zawahiri to a squad of Kashmir Khan’s men. While US and Northern Alliance forces combed the devastated landscape around Tora Bora, the Al-Qaeda leaders pushed deeper into Hizb territory, the road climbing steadily and unevenly into the mountains. They reached Shaygal and the village of Monai, above a flood plain in a broad valley. Free from danger for the first time in weeks, they trekked the rest of the way on foot to their hideout.

They spent some time together with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar who narrowly escaped a drone attack.

Hekmatyar spent most of the time in a house a short distance from bin Laden and Zawahiri—quarantined for his and their safety. Kashmir Khan knew his old friend had a habit of courting and attracting attention. [...] To try to relax, Hekmatyar, bin Laden and Zawahiri occasionally made the half-hour walk to Kashmir Khan’s home village of Derai, and they were there on Monday 6 May when Hekmatyar dialled the Iranian minister’s number. It was 10.30am. As he chatted, he strolled around with the satellite phone to his ear, while Kashmir Khan sat behind a nearby wall and some farmers busied themselves close by. Suddenly, there was a deafening roar and a huge crash. Stones and dirt showered Kashmir Khan; Hekmatyar stumbled disorientated through a cloud of smoke and dust. A Hellfire missile had smashed into the ground beside a walnut tree, where the Hizb leader had been standing a few minutes earlier. Had he not been talking on the move, he would have been blown to pieces.

This is also confirmed by Peter Bergen.
Bergen, Peter (2021). The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 175–176. ISBN 978-1-9821-7052-3.

Under the cover of darkness at 11 p.m. on December 12 bin Laden and his followers took advantage of the truce to leave Tora Bora. Bin Laden together with his sons Mohammed and Osman and Zawahiri sneaked out of Tora Bora, staging one of history’s great disappearing acts. Confounding expectations that they would likely flee across the border into Pakistan’s tribal regions, they traveled instead to northeastern Afghanistan, where they vanished into the densely forested mountains of Kunar province.

  • From Kunar, bin Laden travelled in mid-2002 to Swat District in Pakistan where he lived with his wife Amal. He was visited there by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in early 2003 weeks before he was arrested.
Bergen, Peter (2021). The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 181. ISBN 978-1-9821-7052-3.

In mid-2002 Amal traveled to Peshawar, the city where bin Laden had founded al-Qaeda a decade and a half earlier, where she reunited with her husband, who had shaved off his distinctive beard. He and Amal traveled by van to Swat in the north of Pakistan, where they settled in a house that had a stream flowing beside it. A mountainous, lush green region of rivers and lakes known as the Switzerland of Pakistan, Swat was a romantic place. There, Amal and bin Laden conceived their second child.

Bergen, Peter (2021). The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 183. ISBN 978-1-9821-7052-3.

In the spring of 2003, bin Laden reunited with much of his family in Haripur, a city an hour’s drive from the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. For the next two years bin Laden, together with Amal and one of his other wives, Siham, and their son Khalid, as well as bin Laden’s two oldest daughters, Miriam and Sumaiya, all lived together in a large, comfortable house in Haripur.

  • Until he settled in Abottabad in August 2005.
Bergen, Peter (2021). The Rise and Fall of Osama bin Laden. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 209. ISBN 978-1-9821-7052-3.

Bin Laden and two of his wives, six of his children, and his two bodyguards and their families all moved to Abbottabad in August 2005. In Abbottabad bin Laden had another two children with Amal, his youngest wife; Zainab was born in 2006 and Hussain in 2008.

I think this should go into the article. Please feel free to use the references if you want to improve the article. --Jo1971 (talk) 19:22, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2022

Please remove Pan-Islamic from this article. AL Qaeda is an extremest terrorist group and does not follow islam in anyway. Pan islam is the preaching of unity for muslim people, not the condemnation or embrace for terrorism against any peoples. Sylla-d12 (talk) 19:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:43, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

The death of Osama bim laden

Bin laden was killed in 2006, an interview with Pakistan prime minister benazer bhutto was interviewed in 2007 admitted that he was killed, not by usa forces in 2011 78.86.161.199 (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@78.86.161.199 45.212.146.236 (talk) 15:54, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm guessing this is a reference to the Frost interview on Al Jazeera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ). However, Bhutto clearly referred to OBL as being alive just over a month earlier in a September 2007 interview with BBC America: "If there is overwhelming evidence, I would hope that I would be able to take Osama bin Laden myself without depending on the Americans" (https://archive.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/10/02/bhutto_would_take_us_aid_against_bin_laden/). There's no evidence her comment was anything other than a slip of the tongue, one that Frost himself clearly didn't even consider to be worth correcting or following up on. The Wiki page on Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh mentions this, and comes to a similar conclusion. 2A00:23C7:99A4:5001:552B:19A7:4BBB:7ADF (talk) 10:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2022

In the opening page of this article, Osama bin Laden is stated as “Bin Laden”. However, in this sentence under “Pursuit by the United States” the “Bin” in his name isn’t capitalized. 

that bin Laden began the Battle of Tora Bora inside the cave complex along Afghanistan's mountainous eastern border.

“bin Laden” 172.83.214.123 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Bin is used at the start of a sentence, otherwise bin is used, as I think it is less of a name itself and means "son of" Cannolis (talk) 09:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The article is correct as-is, because the correct name is "bin Laden". Since sentences must begin with a capital letter, though, the name would be "Bin Laden" if it appears at the beginning of a sentence, as it does in the instance to which you refer here. L'être et le néant (talk) 02:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2023

In the “Name” section, the claim that “Laden” is the name of Osama’s great-great-grandfather “Laden Ali Al-Qahtani” is cited by a single Geni family tree that itself has no sources whatsoever. Hardly fits WP:V. According to a source on bin Laden family the ancestor named Laden was like 2 dozen generations before Osama. Now, I don’t speak Arabic, and I don’t know the website cited, so I have no clue whether that source meets WP:V either, but assuming it does, could someone make the change on this article to reflect that? The Geni source should be nixed either way. 108.58.54.206 (talk) 13:30, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 08:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

the height of him is wrong according to the tsa

so the tsa leak has shown his height to be said at 176 cm so yeah

source is https://www.no-fly-list.com/details/Osama_bin+Laden 70.76.33.120 (talk) 05:08, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

The TSA were in no position to measure bin Laden's height when they put him on the no-fly list. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.40.35.66 (talk) 19:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2023

The code name for the Bin Laden raid is incorrectly written as Operation Neptune Spear, however the correct names is Operation Neptune’s spear. Plural 2600:1008:B143:CB02:C85D:A1AB:AC19:DD2A (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: AnnaMankad (talk) 02:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Gilgit Massacre

This entire segment was recognized as fake over 5 years ago yet persists, slowly generating more and more circular references.

The only sources originate from a highly biased source B. Raman, head of the counter-terrorism division of India's Research and Analysis Wing. On top of the bias he never even bothers to go into detail, only mentioning this very contentious assertion in passing.

This is very blatantly fake and should be removed from the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osama_bin_Laden/Archive_19#Gilgit_Massacre_1988

Fredepd (talk) 01:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2023

In this you mentioned bin laden was a Muslim. He wasn't. Because he changed the laws of Islam, and that took him out of the religion. Please fix this as this tarnishes the image of Islam. 2A02:9B0:21:A48D:1776:1F7F:4D04:E0C (talk) 23:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 01:11, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

"Name" section

To whom it concerns, I would suggest the following change:

from

"Laden" refers not to bin Laden's great-grandfather, who was named Aboud, but to Aboud's father, Laden Ali al-Qahtani.[31]

to

"Laden" therefore refers to bin Laden's great-great-grandfather, Laden Ali al-Qahtani.[31]

The advantage of this change is that now the sentence does not unnecessarily refute an error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:6:2180:6056:B10F:D7D2:11B1:AC2 (talk) 12:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Parham wiki (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"Bin Laden" captialization

According to the UN and the publishing arm of Oxford University "Bin" gets capitalized when it is the first element of a name. For example, the lead currently has In the Gulf War (1990–1991), bin Laden's offer for support against... which is stylistically incorrect according to the UN and Oxford. I did do a search of the talk page, and several editors made some statements, but did not cite any style guides. Marcus Markup (talk) 15:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, Category:Bin_Laden_family says unequivocally "The correct title of this category is bin Laden family. The initial letter is capitalized due to technical restrictions." No source is given for the assertion. I would bring the issue up on the talk page there, but might as well consolidate the discussion here. I would be bold and fix it myself, but I don't speak Arabic and I understand there are dozens of different ways of doing things. Marcus Markup (talk) 18:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Bin Ladin's cowardice

"Bin Laden was the coward behind the September 11 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people."

Are we meant to understand that...

[1] bin Laden was a terrorist and only a coward would perpetrate an act of terrorism, and so it naturally follows that he was a coward?

[2] there is some unique fact about the September 11 attacks, such that his involvement in them makes him a coward in some way that is noteworthy among terrorists?

[3] his cowardice is incidental and unrelated to his terrorism, but that the moral weight of his actions should invite judgment on his general character?

The sentence leaves open all of these possibilities, and I think a clarification would be helpful. 2A07:C6C0:37:1000:0:0:0:7ED4 (talk) 10:32, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

"mastermind" was changed to "coward" about ten hours ago. That was an unencyclopedic edit, and I have just undid it. Marcus Markup (talk) 14:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Mastermind or Financer?

I don't think the current description of Osama Bin Laden as the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks is strictly accurate. Even the Wiki page on the attacks describes his role as leadership and financial support, not planning. He also didn't come up with the idea. As a comparison, one likely wouldn't describe Barack Obama as the mastermind behind the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden, despite the fact that he was obviously closely involved. 71.178.173.114 (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

letter removal

the 2002 letter has been removed from the guardian's website. we should find a link. commie (talk) 16:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

it seems that this letter has risen to a level of notoriety that may warrant its own article. any opinions on this? commie (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
I agree Parham wiki (talk) 16:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Here's the archive.org copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20231116112651/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gwwRw1--gfMJ:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver&hl=en&gl=us ragesoss (talk) 17:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm kind of surprised the letter never had a standalone page prior, but I'm assuming it was never that notable? As noted, you can find copies/transcripts of it posted by big name sources over 20 years ago.
But yes, i do agree that it's upsurge in popularity may warrant an article now. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 15:14, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
@Clear Looking Glass: It didn't meet WP:GNG criteria before it went viral. Parham wiki (talk) 11:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
@Parham wiki - After posting my comment, that's what I assumed. I'd still agree a page should be made now and it should pass Wikipedia's notable guidelines now. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 02:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Change the introductory paragraph?

I thought it made sense to do so, but why is the first introductory paragraph, not cover him being the 9/11 mastermind. 99% of people know him as the 9/1+ man, not just a broad Islamic terrorist or whatever it says now. IEditPolitics (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I would agree; I Bold added it, we'll see who has an issue with it. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Opinion of bin Laden in the West?

Article was recently edited with this: " Nonetheless, his justification of attacks against civilian targets of the United States made him a divisive figure in the West, and Western critics often denounce him as a mass murderer."

I personally feel this isn't an accurate representation of the way bin Laden is viewed in the West. Calling him a "divisive figure" makes it seem like he's more controversial, rather than extremely disliked. He isn't "divisive" in the West, he is "hated", "detested" in the west. He's practically the mascot of Islamic terrorism in western culture.

The "Western critics" part implies that it's a certain group of people who criticize him, rather than a significant majority of the general population. It would be like writing "In the west, modern critics often denounce Hitler." It ignores a big part of the picture.

The fact is that, objectively, the view of bin Laden in the West is overwhelmingly negative among the general population, and I don't think this accurately conveys that. This should be, in my opinion, rewritten to either include that he is "widely reviled as a figurehead of mass murder", as the article did before, or an additional sentence should be added stating that "In the West, public opinion of bin Laden is overwhelmingly negative." or something along these lines. FutureSlap (talk) 04:30, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with OP ShaiGoldman18 (talk) 17:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Minor typo.

"This resulted in the United States invading Afghanistan and which launched. the war on terror."

There is a typo in this sentence. Maybe change it to:

"This resulted in the United States invading Afghanistan, which launched the war on terror." 176.40.242.73 (talk) 14:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Parham wiki (talk) 15:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
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