Talk:Panagiotis Kone

ethnicity

I've added a dubious tag about his family background (this father&mother claim is still wp:or). Since a number of references are contradicting each other it appears that the issue isn't clear. Until a decent reference is brought, per wp:BLP, this part should be avoided.Alexikoua (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

His father was a Albanian biolog who was welcomed in greece.See http://www.lajmeonline.eu/shqiptari-kone-sjam-shqiptar-jam-grek/.He had never denied his origin.See http://www.sportishqiptar.com.al/newsite/2013/02/11/panajotis-kone-nuk-e-kam-mohuar-kurre-origjinen-time/. User:Arb12345 11:51, 30 June 2014

Per this [[1]] he self declared: "all of my relatives are Greek, whether they live in Albania or not". It seems clear that there is a contradiction among the reference about this issue. I'll remove this part per wp:blp.Alexikoua (talk) 13:00, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Where is the original source in italian? I've seen the press conference in Italian, and in it he never talks about any relatives.37.46.188.80 (talk) 12:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

He clearly said that he was Albanian.See references 2,6.And he said that his father was welcomed in Greece.See reference 4.He sad that feel greek.We still don't know about his mother.We now that he has a Albanian father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arb12345 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

That's the problem, and here in ref. #2[[2]] he clearly declares that all of his relatives (mother and father are considered relatives too) are Greek, whether they live now in Albania or not.Alexikoua (talk) 17:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

In Tirana there isn't a greek community.He consider his family as greeks.He sad clearly that his father was Albanian.We can't make his father a greek. User:Arb12345 21:31, 30 June 2014

Tirana is the capital, a number of minority member resides there too. In case you can't refute his comments about his relatives' ethnicity per wp:BLP, this needs to go. There are some additional rules about biographies of living persons, especially when the person declared something different or contradicting.Alexikoua (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

He didn't mention his father except that he was an Albanian biolog that was welcomed in Greece.Maybe he was talking about his mother's side.We can't edit it.User:79.106.109.164 10:15, 30 June 2024 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.170 (talk)

Would the involved editors please read WP:BRD and not keep reverting to there preferred version before a consensus is reached here. That is called WP:EDITWARRING and will only get the page protected from non admins editing it. The references given seem to me to show that he considers himself Greek, and convention on Wikipedia for sportsman is that the nationality he represents internationally is used. As for his family, the refs all say they consider themselves Greek - no reference explicitly state his mother does not consider herself Greek. Nationality is a complicated issue - especially in this area where people often have allegiances that do not match the current political boundaries. The editor(s) pushing the Albanian nationality need to provide WP:reliable sources that back up their view rather than just making unsourced claims. Regardless of that, linking to List of Albanians in the lead is totally irrelevant - it adds nothing to the article anyway. noq (talk) 23:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

He feels Greek.That doesn't mean that he is.He sad that his father was Albanian.See references 1,3.He said i never denied my origin.In the other refernece he said that he feel more greek and his father was a albanian biolog that was welcomed in Greece.Is it a problem of being half Albanian.You just edited Greeks in Albania.I agree about that cause he is half greek. User:79.106.109.164 9:23, 1 July 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.170 (talk)

He was born in Tirana, to ethnic Greek parents. His family moved to Greece when he was a child. He represents Greece, and has said that he solely feels (identifies) as Greek. Please refrain from original research.--Zoupan 22:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

He is Greek just like Mao Zedong ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.73.129.13 (talk) 13:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@Zoupan, Alexikoua, and Noq: Regarding Kone's ethnicity: Kone released a statement today, commenting on a picture of him (the picture is here) that was seen on the internet, that shows him making an Albanian salute (linked with Albanian nationalism). The press release (it's in Greek) reads:[...]"Ποτέ δεν έκρυψα ότι είμαι αλβανικής καταγωγής. Αυτό θα ήταν ασέβεια προς την πατρίδα των γονιών μου και πολλών συγγενών μου. Είμαι και Έλληνας πολίτης. Στην Ελλάδα μεγάλωσα, εκπαιδεύτηκα, έμαθα ποδόσφαιρο. Στη χώρα που υποδέχτηκε την οικογένειά μου και την οποία τιμώ όπως μπορώ."[...]. The English translation would be: [...]I have never hidden that I am of Albanian ancestry. That would be disrespectful towards the country of my parents and many relatives of mine. I am also a Greek citizen. I grew up, trained and learnt football in Greece. It's a country that welcomed my parents and a country that I honour in any way I can.[...]. This statement contradicts, previous references. It's also a direct statement of Kone considering his ethnicity. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) ^{a penny for your thoughts?} 11:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see a declaration of ancestry. In fact "αλβανικής καταγωγής" can also mean "originating from Albania". This doesn't mean that Kone's family aren't members of the Greek minority of Albania, escpecially when taking into account the additional inlines which are already present in the article about Kone's self-declaration of ethnicity the case is far from being clear.Alexikoua (talk) 15:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You clearly distort Kone's own saying. His statement is as clear as it gets: "Είμαι αλβανικής καταγωγής" -> "I am of Albanian ancestry/descent". "Κατάγομαι από την Αλβανία" -> "I'm originating from Albania". There would be no need to state that he also has a Greek citizenship. No matter what the previous indirect statements on his ancestry were, this is a direct statement about himself, and IMHO it supersedes thee previous. Additionally we shouldn't confuse ancestry with national self-identification. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) ^{a penny for your thoughts?} 23:42, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It's clear that when someone states in Greek I'm "of X origin" (καταγωγή) this doesn't necessary mean ethnicity (εθνικότητα). Even if we assume this concerns ethnicity as you claim then his last statement condradicts a number of older direct statements about his ethnic background. I wouldn't object to present all available data.Alexikoua (talk) 05:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

He didn't state that he's a Greek of Albanian origin. He said he is a Greek citizen of Albanian descent/ancestry. Do you think that an ethnic Greek from Albania would take a picture making a salute which is clearly connected with Albanian nationalism? I think I would post this to Greece and Albania wikiprojects to get more people involved to this discussion. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) ^{a penny for your thoughts?} 06:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Maybe these can help you people : Rolandi+ (talk) 10:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry guys, but this "controversy" is hilarious. :) I hear this Kone guy is an Orthodox from the Korca area, is that right ?Resnjari (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree on your first thought. I can't confirm the Korca connection.Alexikoua (talk) 09:43, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Another similar exmaple is Luan Shabani or Leonidas Sabanis, whose family hail from Korca and they are Muslim Albanian speakers. Just goes to show, these things are quite funny. I wonder with Kone, one day will it be said he is an Arvanite (considering that some kind of dual identity is going on here) ? Just a thought (For those out there just in case, don't take it seriously !). All in good fun...Resnjari (talk) 12:27, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Another similar exmaple is Luan Shabani... I'm afraid you need to present something decent to support your claims, else I'm afraid it can be considered funny too.Alexikoua (talk) 12:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Hehe. Its all in good fun. Just saying that situations like these are funny. But regarding Shabani, I would have to go into the archive of Albanian TV, in particular TV Klan for that from some years back. Like i said I am not editing Luan Shabani, just saying that some of his family in Albania like frequenting a mosque from time to time. Luan felt what he felt. Its the Balkans, identity and religion are fluid depending on context and region. Take vice president Bulent Arinc in Turkey for example (since he is sourced in Wikipedia, by me) that he speaks Cretan Greek fluently. Yet he is the one and only guy in the Erdogan government pushing to reconvert the Hagia Sofia as a Mosque ! If that is not ironic, than what is ? Just saying.... Resnjari (talk) 13:27, 14 October 2015 (UTC)13:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Yep, not few personalities have been unofficially claimed as belonging to another ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 13:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua - you removed fully referenced material on his ethnicity due to a non-existent 'bad translation.' I am putting the reference and source back. If you remove it again, we can start a proper process. I am not Albanian, but the player has a right to say what he feels his identity is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.19.4 (talk) 12:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

The article already states that he is an ethnic Greek from Albania, thus that fact that he is "however, from Albania" has been already mentioned and it's no news for Kone's background.Alexikoua (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Kone makes eagle symbol

Kone is seen making eagles symbol aka symbol of Albania,this was news was spread ingreek and albanian media. Perhaps with this action Kone wanted to show his ethnic origin. AlbertBikaj (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps not. Perhaps he just made an Albanian fan happy.--Zoupan 04:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Edit-war

Please stop edit-warring. An user is outright OR-ing Kone's quote as him being of Albanian ethnicity, when this is clearly not the case. This POV is pushed by several IPs, most likely the same person.--Zoupan 00:22, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by "when this is clearly not the case"? 37.46.188.80 (talk) 12:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

...putting words in his mouth about ethnic identity?--Zoupan 13:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Is that what your friend Alexikoua tells you? Why don't you translate this for me: "Unë kurrë nuk jam ndjerë grek. Unë jam shqiptar dhe ju (për grekët) duhet të ma dini për nder që kontribuoj për kombëtaren tuaj"?37.46.188.80 (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Nothing more than a weird combination of tabloid journalism and source falsification. You need to follow wp:RS.Alexikoua (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

You need to clarify what you mean with "source falsification".37.46.188.80 (talk) 23:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone that originates from another country doesn't necessary make him of that ethnicity. To be precise: when someone was born from Albania it doesn't make him an ethnic Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

If he claims he is, who are you to question it? You fail to see the context because it does not fit your agenda. In the press release he mentions that he's a Greek citizen, why doesn't he say anything about his supposed greek ethnicity? Instead he speaks of Albanian origin/ancestry eventhough he spent a fraction of his life in the country. 37.46.188.80 (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

You should avoid speculations of this kind, you have already breached wp:BLP.Alexikoua (talk) 12:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

In what way did I breach WP:BLP? With regards to the ethnicity of Kones parents, please read the section "Parents ethnicity" in this talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.46.188.80 (talk) 12:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

You still insist to intentionally translate the text in a wrong way: Let me help you in the translation: [[3]] Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live in Albania, but they are all Greeks). For future reference a Greek that still lives in Albania, is a member of the Greek minority in Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 15:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Where did I translate that part the wrong way? And why are you ignoring the two sections below this one? (Parents ethnicity and incorrect translation) Let's continue the discussion there instead. I have provided evidence for my reasoning.37.46.188.80 (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

You have actually contradicted your own argument by providing a reference that clearly states that his relatives who still live in Albania are members of the Greek minority. (Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες. Translated: Some members of my family still live in Albania, but they are all Greeks. Isn't it simple? Alexikoua (talk) 23:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

How about you read everything I wrote? Kone was paraphrased by Gazzetta dello Sport: "Dell’Albania conservo qualche familiare, ma sono greco in tutto e per tutto". I dare you to ask any Italian speaker what this mean. Again, read what I wrote below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.46.188.80 (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Can we safely conclude that the claim of Albanian ethnicity is original research? This person was born in Albania to ethnic Greek parents, moving to Greece as a child; this makes him a Greek national and an ethnic Greek. The Personal life-section makes this perfectly clear, with references. This discussion needs to be closed, the IP has been warned.--Zoupan 23:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Let's put aside the supposed albanian ethnicity for a moment. Are you saying that we should ignore that the Greek website mistranslated Gazzetta dello Sport?37.46.188.80 (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The specific source [[4]] isn't a translation as far I see.Alexikoua (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

What makes you believe that? It is a translation of GdS. It's from his press conference after he had signed with Bologna. "Dell’Albania conservo qualche familiare, ma sono greco in tutto e per tutto", what do you think this means? 37.46.188.80 (talk) 00:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan: Is it possible to be an ethnic Greek of Albanian descent? (do click on the link) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cplakidas#Translation_of_quote Is there any interest on your end to edit the page based on your newfound knowledge?

Aside from the fact that the quotes in greek are almost literal translations of the quotes in GdS, you will also find the following in the Gazzetta dello Sport and Corriere di Bologna[CdB]:

• "centrocampista greco di origine albanese" -> "the greek midfielder of Albanian origin"
• "fatto molto raro per un giocatore albanese di nascita – è capitato anche a Ninis del Panathinaikos, ma lui è nato in Albania da genitori greci" -> "very fare for a player that is Albanian by birth, it also happened to Ninis of Panathinaikos, but he was born in Albania to greek parents"

Why should these facts be disregarded? Why is Zoupan threatening to kill the discussion in light of the fact that I presented a very good case for the greek translation being wrong (see 'parents ethnicity')? 37.46.188.80 (talk) 12:01, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The so-called translation argument to Greek is your personal view. Also note the wp:BPL issues in wikipedia are very sensitive especially when the subject clearly declared that all of his relatives still living in Albania are members of the Greek minority there.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, stop obfuscating. Second of all, aren't both of us working towards the goal of improving this page? I'm offering an explanation to the contradicting sources. Why do you feel it is not important for you to provide evidence of why it's not a mistranslation? I'd be willing to request someone to translate the relevant parts in Italian in order for you to compare it with the Greek source. Moreover, why is the fact that he declared to be of Albanian descent irrelevant to you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cplakidas#Translation_of_quote 37.46.188.80 (talk) 08:28, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

...the emphasis is on the homeland of my parents (την πατρίδα των γονιών μου). It is already stated in the article that he was born in Albania and moved with his family to Greece.--Zoupan 09:22, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, why don't you answer my question? Is it possible to ethnic Greek of Albania descent? 37.46.188.80 (talk) 10:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

"Αλβανικής καταγωγής" can also mean "I'm originating from Albania", but he clearly declares his ethnicity by saying that "all of his relatives still living in Albania are Greeks". Moreover, "sport-fr.gr" [[5]] isn't a translation as you insist.Alexikoua (talk) 16:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

It can probably mean many things, depending on how far you want to push it. From the same source: "Θα συνεχίσω, επίσης, να σέβομαι και να μην ξεχνώ τις ρίζες μου, παρότι αυτό από μερικούς δεν είναι αποδεκτό." I suppose "I will not forget my roots" has a special meaning for you? Since it's not a translation, are you saying that the press conference was in Greek? Also, is Gazzetta dello Sport wrong?37.46.188.80 (talk) 20:52, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect translation

Unresolved

"His family moved to Athens, Greece, and he has said that he has never faced discrimination because of his origin in Albania". This is incorrect. He's talking about discrimination in Greece, not Albania. "Origjinën time nuk e kam mohuar kurrë, por edhe në Greqi kurrsesi nuk më kanë diskriminuar" means "I have never forgotten my origins, but in Greece I didn't experience any discrimination."37.46.188.80 (talk) 00:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: I'd love to know why you keep adding "in Albania". This somehow implies that he's talking about discrimination in Albania, when he in fact is talking about discrimination in Greece.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.46.188.80 (talk • contribs)

You don't seem to understand what his origin in Albania means — his origin in the country of Albania, not discrimination in Albania. He lives in Greece. Btw, you need to sign your comments; you were noticed 00:17, 21 December 2015 about this, then commented over 10 times without signing yourself, then removed the notice 22:51, 21 December 2015 — I hope this means you have understood the importance of signing yourself.--Zoupan 04:11, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

And you need to understand that it makes the sentence unnecessary ambigious. I'm going to bring this up with the admins as soon as I'm able to because it's disruptive editing. By the way, you didn't answer my question. Is it possible to be ethnic Greek of Albanian descent? 37.46.188.80 (talk) 08:13, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I've altered it to "never faced discrimination in Greece because of his origin in Albania". Disruptive editing, how? You did not ask that question. There is a large community of Northern Epirotes, and emigrée community in Greece. I would suppose that Kone belongs to that community. If Kone explicitly states that he is ethnic Albanian, it would absolutely warrant a change in the article.--Zoupan 09:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that "because of his Albanian origin" is the more appropriate translation, because that's essentially what he says in the interview. Anything other than that is OR.37.46.188.80 (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's a neutral source that mentions his Albanian origin: http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Squadre/Bologna/notizie/03-09-2011/presentato-kone-voglio-segnare-parecchio-802734476780.shtml 37.46.188.80 (talk) 10:18, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

With regards to the dead link, here's the same interview from another source: http://www.panorama-sport.com/kone-te-qenit-shqiptar-me-bente-te-ndihesha-i-forte-ne-greqi/. Translation: "Origjinën time nuk e kam mohuar kurrë, por edhe në Greqi kurrsesi nuk më kanë diskriminuar. Përkundrazi, sa herë që më pyesnin, u përgjigjesha bindshëm: ‘Jam Kone shqiptari’" -> "I have never forgotten my origins, but I have not face any discrimination in Greece. On the contrary, whenever they ask me, I answer convincingly: 'I am Kone, the albanian'. And because of this they always respected me". In light of all the evidence, it's increasingly silly to maintain the "ethnic Greek parents" line (see contradicting sources below).37.46.188.80 (talk) 10:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

wp:OR OR and more OR. By the way since it's stated that he is ethnic Greek and his relatives too, so I find it too much to add that too. Perhaps it isn't necessary at all to mention his parents' ethnic background.Alexikoua (talk) 21:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

What part is OR? You keep throwing around these accusations without specifying. When I removed "in Albania" you kept adding it back again for no apparent reason. I didn't even write "Albanian origin", I just left he "origin" part (new account).DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 22:39, 22 December 2015 (UTC)specifying.

@Zoupan and Alexikoua:Do you oppose changing "because of his origin in Albania" to "because of his origin"? This is more in line with his declaration; "I have never denied my origin, but in Greece I haven't been discriminated". There's no mention as to what his origin is, and it's not up to us to interpret it further (i.e. we can't make inferences based on earlier declarations).DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually he lived in Albania. I don't understand what's your point for the removal. At least this part does not concern his ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

How do you know he didn't mean "Albanian origin" without referring to other sources? Let me put it this way. Did Kone mean that he hasn't been discriminated because he's of Albanian origin, or because he was born in Albania? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:53, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Mind answering the above? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 13:08, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Parents ethnicity

does not mention anything about his parents being ethnically greek. Removed per WP:BLP:

"Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that:

• is unsourced or poorly sourced
• is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research)"

Moreover, Kone never said "all of my relatives are greek". In italian he said: "Dell’Albania conservo qualche familiare, ma sono greco in tutto e per tutto" which means "I still have relatives that live in Albania, but I am thoroughly Greek." This was mistranslated by the greek source as "I still have relatives that live in Albania, but they're thoroughly Greek." Note: "Sono Greco", and not "Sono Greci".

Source: http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Squadre/Bologna/notizie/03-09-2011/presentato-kone-voglio-segnare-parecchio-802734476780.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

@Alexikoua:Why did you remove the OR tag? There is a content dispute here with regards to that specific entry. This is a childish game that you're playing. I am still waiting for you and User:Zoupan to present your arguments here.DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 13:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no OR issue, Kone declares that even his relatives that still live in Albania are Greeks. There is no rule that you should exercise wp:OWN before a decision is taken.Alexikoua (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

"There is no OR". Please present your case here. Mere assertions aren't very helpful "When a given editor adds this template he or she must concurrently add corresponding text to the tagged article's talk page to explain their concerns relative to original research for the given tagged text unless talk already exists relative to such concerns. If a given article has been tagged and the tagging editor doesn't ensure that corresponding article talk relative to the tag isn't either already available or added within a short amount of time (i.e., no more than 24 hours) then fellow editors are within their rights to remove the tag or alternatively, add talk in support of its use." I have argued my case several times, not only here, but on noticeboards as well. User:SilkTork agreed that the entry was troublesome. There was imho a perfectly valid reason to add the OR tag. I think my opinion on the matter should be respected too, but seeing that it's not, I will not add it again, because I'm not interested in engaging in another edit war. However, I will use it against you when I present my case (of your disruptive behavior) to the administrators. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Contradicting sources

Unresolved

Two sources in question:

• GdS (Italian): http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Squadre/Bologna/notizie/03-09-2011/presentato-kone-voglio-segnare-parecchio-802734476780.shtml
• Sport-fm (Greek): http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/498577

Background: Panagiotis Kone had signed for the Italian football club Bologna FC. The club issued a press conference (in Italian) as a result of the transfer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKSTZzkok8

GdS reports about the press conference 03/09/11. Article in Sport-fm was last updated 04/09/2011, a day after GdS reported about it.

In Sport-fm Kone is quoted saying the following:

"I arrive at a club that has a history and reputation, my objective is to continue on the successful path from last year and hopefully score a few goals. At Brescia I only managed to score once, but in the previous seasons I used to score 7/8 goals per season. I’m a dynamic midfielder, I’m able to adapt to all roles, I’ve also played as a offensive midfielder/playmaker.”

Above part is also found in GdS, word for word. Here's where the sources disagree:

• GdS: "I migrated from Tirana to Athens with my family at the age of 2. I still have relatives in Albania, but I’m thoroughly Greek.”
• Sport-fm: ”I migrated from Tirana to Athens with my family at the age of 2. I still have relatives in Albania, but they’re all Greek.”

They're obviously reporting on the same thing based on dates, content and context. Consider the following:

• If you do a google translate of the relevant part (where they disagree) you get "Dell’Albania conservo qualche familiare, ma sono greco in tutto e per tutto" -> "Albania retain some familiar, but are greek in all respects". In Italian, "Sono greco" means "I am greek", and "Sono greci" means "they are Greek". Minor detail that makes a big difference.
• It seems as if Kone was paraphrased by GdS (compare with video). Corriere di Bologna reports Kone saying: "I respect Albania but I feel thoroughly Greek" which is more in line with what Kone acrually said. http://corrieredibologna.corriere.it/bologna/notizie/rossoblu/2011/3-settembre-2011/kone-qui-grazie-moras-diamanti-spero-segnare-molti-gol--1901436032427.shtml.
• Press conference was in Italian, thus I believe it is safe to assume that there is a higher chance of information loss when translated to Greek.

37.46.188.80 (talk) 10:21, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The article says incorrectly that he has Greek origins. He is a Greek, but has Albanian origins. The original article correctly says "greco di origine albanese" (Greek of Albanian origin), can't be clearer than that (see source [6]). The Greek media lied in their translations, saying that he is a Greek originally (but Kone isn't even a Greek last name, it's clearly Albanian), so we have conflicting sources. Perhaps Gjergji Kone will clarify that in the future. He needs to reach peace in his soul, but there is no need to fight it in the article, sources can just be compared with calm and presented with precision. --MorenaReka (talk) 17:28, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

MoReka: Why I have the feeling that the one that's lying isn't the 'Greek media'. Trolling isn't appropriate and if you want to respect wp:BLP his name is Panagiotis Georgios Kone, get used to it.Alexikoua (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@MorenaReka and Alexikoua: The greek article doesn't actually mention anything about Kone's origins as far as I can tell. They just mistranslated him. User:Alexikoua has been a member on Wikipedia for long enough to realize that he can not draw any conclusions about Kone's ethnicity based on a quote by Kone about his relatives in Albania. This is OR. Moreover, User:Alexikoua initially defended his position by quoting Kone as having said: "all of my relatives are Greek, whether they live in Albania or not" and then suddenly it became "some of my relatives live in Albania, they are all Greek". What happened to "whether they live in Albania or not"? Apparently when User:Alexikoua writes "he clearly declares", it's not so clear after all. And I haven't even mentioned the fact that every other source that does not agree with the greek one is dismissed because "he clearly declared that all of his relatives in Albania belong to the Greek minority". Again, OR. Finally, I haven't heard a thing from User:Alexikoua as to why User:Alexikoua believes that it's not a mistranslation. I've presented my evidence, why do you simply dismiss it without countering it with refutations?

As for the precise translation the situation is clear that all his relatives living in Albania are members of the Greek minority there. It's neither wrongly translated nor OR.Alexikoua (talk) 20:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua: All I am saying is that the two sources (Greek and Italian) contradict one another. So that you know, all the Albanian sources say that he is Albanian (some were brought above). Would you agree to say in the article that the sources are contradictory about his origin? We can present the Italian, the Greek and the Albanian sources. This would be compliant with Wikipedia:Conflicting sources. What do you think? And... καλά Χριστούγεννα! --MorenaReka (talk) 02:20, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua:I think it would help if you simply explained why you don't believe the part highlighted above of the translation from Italian into Greek is incorrect? Is my translation of the 2 sources wrong? If not, why is my reasoning wrong? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources:

• The accuracy of quoted material is paramount and the accuracy of quotations from living persons is especially sensitive. To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted
• Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion as they may misquote or quote out of context. In such cases, look for neutral corroboration from another source.
• Any analysis or interpretation of the quoted material, however, should rely on a secondary source (See: WP:No original research).

These points should not be disregarded.DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:05, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Is there anything you want to say with regards to what I wrote above before I request a dispute resolution on the basis of original research?

Why could not "familiare, ma sono greco" mean "family, but they are Greek"? Greco means Greek, Greci means Greeks, as you've put it, but is it necessary to use the plural form for this identification to be correct? Confusing. Also, that his name would be Albanian is also OR, btw, his name and those of his parents clearly shows Greek heritage. Do you have any information from where his family hails?--Zoupan 15:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Because grammar. Yes, it is necessary. Of course it's confusing if you don't understand Italian. "[Io] sono greco" means "I am Greek", while "[Loro] sono greci" means "they are Greek". Regarding his name, what do you mean? Perhaps you're confusing me with User:MorenaReka? "his name and those of his parents clearly shows Greek heritage". You should be careful with how you word certain things, just like Alexikoua. Are you saying that everyone named Isac and Leontina in Albania are greeks? Don't take me for an idiot, I can assure you that I am not. Moreover, concerning Kone's name: "il nome, Gjergj, è poi diventato Panagiotis Giorgios" from Corriere di Bologna. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 15:29, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

But he doesn't use Io or Loro. Why would he mention his family members in Albania and then identify himself as Greek, rather than mentioning his family in Albania and that they are Greek? That doesn't make sense. The note of Greek heritage of his name was a counter to the OR that his name was Albanian. I hope you're not, but it is kind of idiotic to misinterpret this into that I'm claiming that all Isacs and Leontinas are Greeks.--Zoupan 16:07, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Because it's not necessary in Italian, it's redundant. Look, there's no wiggle room here. "Sono greco" means "I am greek", while "Sono greci" means "they are greek". It's not a matter of interpretation, that's what they mean by definition. Clutching at straws does not help your case. Further, nor his, or his parents' name clearly show Greek heritage. That's a baseless assertion, and is intellectually dishonest. In case you missed it before: "il nome, Gjergj, è poi diventato Panagiotis Giorgios" DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Right, Panagiotis, and Leontios are hardly Greek heritage? Gjergj is simply the Albanian version of George (gr. Giorgios), and as far as I know, non-Albanian forms of names were strongly discouraged by the government (i.e. "In addition, governmental pressure to change foreign and religious names to Albanian forms had a deleterious impact on Greek families"). Also, from where is his middle name sourced from?--Zoupan 18:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

While I don't believe for a second that's what you meant initially, I'll play along. This: "his name and those of his parents clearly shows Greek heritage" is not necessarily the same as "his name and those of his parents clearly are of greek origin." The latter is a pointless assertion. Names of Greek origin are very common in Albania and the rest of the world. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: You didn't explain your recent revert. Why? And why the removal?DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: You need to understand that "origense Albanese" has a very specific meaning in Italian, no matter how much try to obfuscate its meaning because of the fact that you don't like it. It does not say "centrocampista greco nato in albania" but "centrocampista greco di origine Albanese". I will add corriere di Bologna as well, that reads: "very rare for a player that's Albanian by birth, it also happened to Ninis of Panatinaikos, but he was born in Albanian to Greek parents.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DevilWearsBrioni (talk • contribs)

DWB: You didn't explain why you manipulate the current version by adding a supposed alternative hypothesis that "he is of Albanian origin". Off course all source point that he is from Albania (geographically speaking) since he comes from the Greek minority of Albania. That's not a contradicting fact.Alexikoua (talk) 19:24, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

No, "albanian origin" does not mean what you suggest it means. It means he is of "Albanian origin", not that he was born in Albania. Corriere di Bologna supports this as well. Stop this madness. There are conflicting sources, all material should be presented. You are deciding that your source somehow takes precedence over perfectly valid sources. Moreover, the DRN (as well as the RfC) was about the ethnic Greek part, not this. This is new material that was not presented in the DNR. I have not made any changes to the "ethnic greek background" part. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually the "conflicting sources issue" is your personal opinion. Since you chalenge the statement of Kone (for future reference a member of the Greek minority of Albania always originates from Albania, those both statements are not contradicting) such kind of continuous manipulation is one of the worst wp:BLP disruptions. Moreover, you ignored the fact that the DRN never reached such a decision you claim.Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

It's not just a personal opinion, it's a fact. Both GdS and Corriere di Bologna claim he is of Albanian origin. What decision am I claiming? For future reference, someone of Albanian origin is of Albanian origin, and not merely someone who was born in Albania. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: Look, there's no wiggle room here if Kone calls himself or his family Greek. di origine Albanese should not be interpreted as "of Albanian ethnic origin".--Zoupan 20:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Zoupan: What do you think I meant when I wrote "there's no wiggle room here"? Do you think it somehow applies to this discussion? Does it help your case to quote me out of context? Let me be perfectly clear. There's no wiggle room with regards to the meaning of "Sono greci", as I explained in our previous discussion. As for the point you're trying to make: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here." Albanian origin means Albanian origin whether you like it or not. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

No wonder the DRN outcome was not in favor of this so-called manipulation attempt of cherry picking specific phrases in order to create a contradicting statement. Even if a person originates from country X doesn't mean he is ethnic X, this applies even if the country of origin is Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: There was no DRN outcome, and there's no manipulation or cherry-picking. Now, back to the issue at hand. "Even if a person originates from country X doesn't mean he is ethnic X." The source does not say that he originates from Albania, but that he's of Albanian origin. This has been pointed out to you how many times now? 3? Are you ever going to address this or are you going to keep attacking a straw man? What's the most common way to describe someone's ethnicity in Italian? By the way, interestingly though, when I posited on the NOR noticeboard Zoupan changed "ethnic Greek parents" to "ethnic Greek family", and after the DRN request you changed it to "ethnic Greek background". Apparently my "manipulation attempts" triggered both you and Zoupan to play this game of semantics. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Zoupan: You once expressed this very noble opinion on another talk page: this is exactly up to us, as a community, to resolve. Seeing that you're active on this article, I believe you have an interest in filtering out poor sources (just like you did with the Dukagjini article). So, what's your opinion on the Greek source vs Gazzetta dello sport? Is the greek source a translation? Why or why not? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 22:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Aren't we trying, at least, to resolve this? Dukagjini cannot be compared to this, just stop. What does ma sono greco in tutto e per tutto mean, and how can it be interpreted?--Zoupan 22:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Zoupan: You have showed very little interest in addressing the points I've made. And I'm not comparing it to Dukagjini, rather it's about consistency. It means "I am thoroughly Greek". He was paraphrased. The same article labels him as someone of "Albanian origin". In Italian this has a specific meaning, and can't be obfuscated to mean "originating from Albania". Corriere di Bologna reads: "Rispetto l’Albania ma mi sento in tutto e per tutto un greco" which means "I respect Albania but I feel entirely Greek". Corriere di Bologna labels him as an ethnic Albanian by differentiating him from Ninis "who was born in Albania by Greek parents". It's not even a matter of interpretation. In my original post under this section I have provided the link the press conference on youtube. Moreover, you never answered my question. To help you out, translate the parts from the Greek source on Google translate, and do the same with Gazzetta dello Sport. if you address all of these points I've made, I believe we can get somewhere. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 22:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

If we judge by the newspaper articles, Kone himself espouses a Greek identity, "i am fully Greek" (Gazzetta, 3-Sep-11), "respects Albania but feels entirely Greek" (Corriere di Bologna, 3-Sep-11), "is not an Albanian but Greek" (Lajme, 19-Mar-13) and is mentioned by Italian newspapers as "Greek of Albanian origin" (Gazzetta, 13-Aug-14). Now, as per BLP, we cannot interpret di origine Albanese as "ethnic Albanian origin" (which we don't know), rather than "[national] Albanian origin" (which we know), and use the former interpretation in the article. Btw, are there any filmed interview in Albanian?--Zoupan 00:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

@Zoupan: Let me remind you of RS. Any analysis or interpretation of the quoted material, however, should rely on a secondary source. There's a very good reason why these policies exist. You're trying to dilute the meaning of "Albanian origin" by assuming the position that he is not of Albanian origin, and that somehow it's on me to prove that "Albanian origin" doesn't mean "born in Albania", which is absurd. In Italian, "di origine Albanese" is commonly used to refer to someone who is of Albanian ancestry. Someone who belongs to a minority in Albania would certainly not be labeled as being "di origine Albanese" (unless there is a misunderstanding of said persons origins). Cherry-picking sources is easy. I can do it too. I am 100% Albanian. I am of Albanian ancestry. Why do you keep ignoring the relevant part in Corriere di Bologna: "which earned him a spot in the greek national team, very rare for a player that is Albanian by birth, it also happened to Ninis of Panathinaikos, but he was born in Albania to greek parents". What does this mean? As for your question, I haven't seen any, but I haven't looked for them either. Oh, by the way, you still haven't answered one important question. Do you believe the article on sport-fm is a translation of the one in Gazzetta dello Sport? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:27, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Here's another source for you Zoupan: "I have never forgotten my origins, but in Greece I haven't been discriminated. On the contrary, whenever they used to ask me, I would answer convincingly: 'I am Kone, the Albanian' and because of this they all respected me." Are these the words of someone that belongs to the Greek ethnic minority in Albania? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:56, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

It happened to look at this article: http://www.fishmedia.info/sport/gjergji-kone-mos-me-thoni-shqiptar-sepse-jam-grek/, it's too obvious that Kone declares that Don't call me Albanian, because I'm Greek & this should be repsected here too per wp:BLP. Alexikoua (talk) 15:12, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: The link you just provided, apart from being dead which I'd argue is a testament to the fact that you're clutching at straws, brings nothing new to the table. As a matter of fact, Zoupan (talk · contribs) brought up the same interview from a different website. Compare: your link (from web archive), the one Zoupan presented. In the interview Kone says (I'll paraphrase him to not make it as lengthy): "Greece has given me and my family so much, therefore I am not Albanian." Seeing that tabloid journalism is not a problem for you when it suits you, you wouldn't mind if I brought up the following interview: "I have never been a Greek. I am Albanian and you (Greeks) need to show appreciation because of what I bring to your national team." After all, it's from the same website you just cited. I'm certain that, even with what I just wrote in mind, you still won't refrain from making interpretations of quoted material, which in the case with Kone is extremely problematic. Either way, you didn't address any of the points I made, and the straw man you tried to pull just ended up backfiring at you. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 17:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

No wonder as I've imagine: DRN didn't make the job for you and now you are into usual trolling and wp:ninja actions. Kindly saying you are one step before being reported for this kind of contiuous disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Please refrain from Ad hominem attacks. It's not very constructive; you should address my arguments instead. As I've said previously, I welcome intervention, so go ahead and report me. I will present my case accordingly. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Does the source support labeling Kone as ethnic Greek?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Is the opening sentence under the section "Early and personal life" supported by the source? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

To clarify, source is in Greek, and the only relevant part is: "Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks." DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid that asking for yet another time for input doesn't offer you the opportunity to manipulate the available material.Alexikoua (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

In what way has the available material been manipulated? Go on, let's hear it. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 19:26, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support the statement that he is Greek. He is of Greek ethnicity and of Greek citizenship. What more is there? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:37, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Kone was born in Tirana, Albania, of ethnic Greek background"

@Zoupan and Alexikoua: Help me understand: why is it not considered original research to assert that Kone's of ethnic Greek background based on a quote in which he supposedly states that all of his relatives in Albanian are Greek? Why does the following not apply here: "Any analysis or interpretation of the quoted material, however, should rely on a secondary source"? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok. Removal of "ethnic Greek background" on the premise that no ethnicity be interpreted (meaning, no addition of "ethnic Greek", "ethnic Albanian"). He may be of Northern Epirote (Greek), or Tosk or Lab origin, or a mix of these, we simply don't know yet. Media is confused on the matter. I personally believe that he is of Northern Epirote parentage, though. Leaving statement about his identity.--Zoupan 14:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily mind this. However, you are setting a dangerous precedent by neglecting two non-partisan sources, Gazzetta dello Sport and Corriere di Bologna which are pretty clear on the matter. There are conflicting sources, no doubt, but the conflicts arise from the declarations by Kone. Although I'd argue that it make's sense for an ethnic Albanian who's lived most of his life in Greece to self-declare as Greek (just as Zlatan Ibrahimovic self-declares as Swedish), it would however not make sense for an ethnic Greek to talk about "discrimination in Greece because of origin", "not forgetting his roots", or to say "I am Kone, the Albanian". These don't justify adding "ethnic Albanian" though, as that would be considered original research, but at least for me, it paints a picture. Now, if there are sources in which Kone explicitly declares being of Greek origin, I would certainly not mind dismissing both Gazzetto dello Sport and Corriere di Bologna. With that said, here's what I propose (one of the following): 1. Although of Albanian origin, he has said regarding his identity that he solely feels Greek. 2. Regarding his identity he has said that although he respects and will not forget his roots, he feels solely Greek. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 16:23, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

If his ethnic background should be avoided, there is still no reason to hide the fact the his relatives in Albania are all Greeks. This kind of info is essential since it offers verbally Kone's statement (I assume there isn't a false-translation conspiracy theory behind that).Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: It IS a mistranslation, and I'm not sure you understand what conspiracy theory means. The quoted material is identical, apart from the part that is underlined. If you want to play hardball, then I'd say there is no reason to include facts about his relatives in Albania at all. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni:, amongst the Orthodox Albanian population of both Albania and those that migrated to Greece, sizable portions of them are "in between" identities. This is due to a multitude of issues which i am sure you would be aware of, due to various geo-political and religious matters. Regarding Gjergj or Panajot(is) here, there was a similar case, that of singer Eleni Foureira. For years there was identity denial (she even said she was "Brazilian" !), obfuscation and eventually it came out she was of Albanian Orthodox heritage from Myzeqe. I don't know if it is a similar case here. In the Korca area, sizable numbers of the Vlachs now call themselves "Elieno" or "Helleno-Vlachs". Whether they have done this to access to Greek employment, citizenship and benefits or they have done this because they really feel Greek, who knows but them. I am not sure if this Kone fellow belongs to them or if he is from the Orthodox Albanian population there with similar feelings. But considering he has expressed different views in recent times, just like Foureira did before it all came out with her, probably some kind of mention is needed of the dualistic views about himself that he has expressed. Greece no longer has the economic clout it once did like before and studies on identity changes sadly have not been done in a post 2010 environment to determine what is occurring with the Albanian Orthodox now. Though such people like Kone don't concern me as i have interacted with them and they want the best of "both worlds" or "to have their cake and eat it" as the saying goes, i do admire your passion for the matter. I agree with your changes and some thing here of the kind is warranted. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Does Fereira officially represent Greece somewhere like Kone? or had Fureira the opportunity to choose between Greek and Albanian national teams or being official representative of a country in an international contest? I'm not a fun of Fereira's field but each case should be treated with caution.Alexikoua (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Kone is presenting similar views to Foureira. "I am this but not that" and " I am that but not this" etc etc. I have interacted with such people in Albania and there are many here in Melbourne from the Macedonian community (especially those from the Florina area) who are also "in between" identities. "My family spoke Macedonian at home but they are Greek", "my so and so cousin is a Skopiani" etc etc and vice versa. I had them at high school, i still interact with them, i have seen some of these people get into brawls with even their family sometimes at family gatherings etc while speaking Macedonian about whether Alexander was Greek or "Macedonian" etc etc. Anyway this type of phenomenon pertains only to Greece and those associated with the Greek socio-cultural and religious orbit. Who knows with Kone. He is making eagle signs these days. It took a long time before Foureira was revealed not to be Brazilian, or a Greek, but of Orthodox Albanian heritage. Surprise in Greece, barely a shoulder shrug of shock in Albania. With Kone time will tell....or maybe not. Who knows ?Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Each person has its own personality and background. I assume that making a nationalist gesture, as you say, someone feels proud of it & not lauphing and joking as Kone obsiously did in the specific picture. In Kone's case it appears more like a butterfly gesture, seen in kindergardens & among Greek footbal fans.Alexikoua (talk) 08:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Hehe. Nice interpretation. As the saying goes Whatever floats your boat. :-)Resnjari (talk) 15:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Butterfly gesture? You have to be kidding me.

Μία μέρα μετά την ήττα της Εθνικής ομάδας στα Νησιά Φερόε, έκανε τον γύρο του διαδικτύου μία φωτογραφία του Παναγιώτη Κονέ να κάνει με τα χέρια την γνωστή κίνηση με τον αετό της Αλβανία, προκαλώντας αντιδράσεις

. Not even Kone tried to use that as an excuse. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:29, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

You are certainly right about the orthodox community in Albania. And I don't even contest the fact that Kone feels Greek. I would be surprised if he didn't feel Greek considering he has lived in the country since he was 2 years old. But I think it's a different case than Albanians who identify as Greek simply because of their orthodox religion. At least Kone has a good reason to identify as a Greek. With that said, he has never expressed that he's of Greek origin. There are however declarations by him in which he either directly says or implies that he's of Albanian origin. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 18:44, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Religion here plays a big part. You know very well that not all religions institutions are in Albanian hands and that can influence the outcomes of swaying some in certain communities to distance themselves from Albanian identification. Even though Albanian nationalism down plays the role of religion, as a socio-cultural force it plays a big role in determining, upholding and shaping Albanian identities. Former intelligence chief Fatos Klosi who gave a frank assessment of one of the religious institutions that is no longer espousing such a role. Though he has been condemned for his assessment, no one in Albania refuted him to offer a counter view. See the interview [7].Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

It appears that this so-called mistranlation was a common tendency by several sites on the net, to name a view:[[8]], [[9]], [[10]], [[11]], [[12]]. It's hard to believe that so many sites made the very same mistranlation.Alexikoua (talk) 19:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

It's incredible that I even have to explain this to you.

Ήρθα σε έναν σύλλογο που έχει ιστορία και φήμη, στόχος μου είναι να διατηρήσω την εικόνα που “έχτισα” την περασμένη σεζόν και ίσως να πετύχω κάποια τέρματα. Στην Μπρέσια σκόραρα μία φορά, αλλά τα προηγούμενα χρόνια είχα μέσο όρο 7-8 γκολ ανά σεζόν. Είμαι ένας δυναμικός μέσος, ταιριάζω σε όλους τους ρόλους, έχω παίξει ακόμα και πλέι μέικερ

was found in all of the sources you just provided. This exact quote. If five independent persons were to translate something, what are the odds that there would be a 100% match between their translations? What does this tell you, Alexikoua? All of the Greek sources were published a day after Gazzetta and Corriere di Bologna. The original sources are in Italian, and not a single one of them mentions anything about his relatives in Albania being Greeks. I have even given an explanation of how the mistranslation arose. Have you seen the press conference? Do you understand Italian? Per BLP:

The accuracy of quoted material is paramount and the accuracy of quotations from living persons is especially sensitive. To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted

. Apart from this, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that facts about his relatives are "essential" in an article about him. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@Zoupan: I have a hard time seeing how the fact that his brother owns a bar in Athens is anything other than trivia? Moreover, does it not fall under WP:SELFPUB? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:08, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Paradoxically you insist that a mountain of Greek newpapers translated his comments from Italian text and they translated it wrong (both claims are too hard to be believed). As far I know Kone speaks Greek in his interviews, thus the Greek press doesn't need a translator to understand what he says in a press conference. No wonder the entire Greek press agrees about Kone's comments, anything else would be wp:OR and wp:SYNTH.Alexikoua (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: There is no paradox here. All the greek newspapers use the same translation. It's pretty obvious that someone translated some of the words wrongly ("Sono greco" became "They are Greek"), then this translation was recycled in Greek media. How do you otherwise explain that they are EXACTLY the same? Not a single word differs in their translations of Kone's words. And not only that, these translations are literal translations of the quotes you'll find in Italian media. LITERAL. Even some of the Greek sources you mention link to the youtube video of Kone's press conference, in Italian. You would have a case if the Greek sources presented some new information, but they don't. It's the same information, apart from the mistranslation. It's the same dates (Greek sources are one day late). What are the odds for this? It's not OR to follow procedure with regards to identifying reliable sources. You have yourself claimed several times that some sources aren't RS. There's no difference here, on the contrary, I provide evidence while you instead have a tendency to dismiss sources as "tabloid journalism" or unreliable without providing evidence. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 13:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@User:DevilWearsBrioni: Sure there is no paradox in this case. However, your case is problematic: you claim that the entire Greek press used the same wrong translated comments of a soccerplayer who happened to speak Greek during a press conference. It can't be more clear than that. No wonder not a single editor couldn't understand this theory in all noticeboards so far.Alexikoua (talk) 14:08, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: If there's no paradox, then you shouldn't write "paradoxically" because deciphering what you mean can get confusing at times. What parts of the press conference were in Greek? Why is the quoted material in Greek media the same throughout, word for word? Is is plausible that 5 independent sources use the exact same syntax and words when quoting someone? Why is the quoted material in Greek media literally the same as the quoted material in Italian media (apart from the part that I argue is a mistranslation)? Either Greek media translated Italian media, or the other way around. But the latter is highly improbable due to the simple fact that GdS and CdB published their articles 1 day earlier than all of the Greek sources you put fourth. Moreover, the press conference was in Italy and the clip linked to even by Greek media is entirely in Italian. By the way, which noticeboards? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 17:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

I comment to your extraordinary claim that all Greek newspapers translated the same text from Italian with the very same error. Since Kone spoke Greek in this press conference it's chidlish to claim that the Greek press translated the Italian translation back to Greek instead of writing down Kone's original Greek comments. Noticeboards are all those (DRN etc) where your arguments have been completely ignored & now you resort to wp:OWN to promote your POV.Alexikoua (talk) 10:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I comment to your extraordinary claim that all Greek newspapers translated the same text from Italian with the very same error. Straw man. This has never been my argument and you should know that. What I argue instead is that one of the Greek sources mistranslated the Italian source and this material was recycled in greek media. If you don't believe this to be the case, then you'd have to argue that 5 independent sources all came up with the exact same translation, word for word. How plausible is that? Since Kone spoke Greek in this press conference it's chidlish to claim that the Greek press translated the Italian translation back to Greek instead of writing down Kone's original Greek comments. Again, what parts of the press conference were in Greek? Have you seen the press conference? Noticeboards are all those (DRN etc) where your arguments have been completely ignored & now you resort to wp:OWN to promote your POV. I know what noticeboards are, I asked which noticeboards. Now, I posted a question in the NOR noticeboard, and the responses I got did not favor your position one bit. That's why Zoupan went ahead and changed the sentence from "ethnic Greek parents" to "ethnic Greek family" which you obviously didn't mind. The DRN was closed due to no volunteers. Here, Robert explains why he chose to not get involved. Arguments weren't ignored, people simply chose to not get involved. By the way, an administrator actually agreed with me that the entry was troublesome and that the article "may be potentially misleading". These discussions tend to go the same way. You make assertions, I answer them. I ask questions, you make assertions again. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Kone' conference was in Italy and was held in Italian. The Greek newspapers would publish material based on the Italian transcript, because I don't believe the Greek portals sent people there at the press conference. As DevilWearsBrioni mentions, all the Greek portals refer to the Italian text, therefore the same bias can be expected. Unless they translated the questions from Italian and place the answers directly from Kone. Does it make sense?

Keeping in mind that the Greek portals claim that Luan Shabani, son of Izet Shabani from Krraba, is a Vorio-Epirot, not wonder they would claim Kone too.

The Italian text says "I am Greek in all and for all" not "they are Greek in all and for all". He is talking about himself, not his next of kin. All he said is that he has family in Tirana. Not that they are Greek. Simple misinterpretation. And you know that Kone is not a Greek surname btw.--Mondiad (talk) 02:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It's the most childish claim to insist that a mountain of newspapers are mistranslating Kone's supposed Italian words because it doesn't fit someone's personal nationalist taste. It appears that the so-called "non-Albanian sources conspiracy" is the personall nightmare of specific editors.Alexikoua (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It's in fact you who's playing a childish game. According to your fellow friend Athenean, an ethnic Greek from Albania would never refer to himself as an "Albanian" ("I am Kone, the Albanian!"). At the very least, it's a complex issue and Kone's statement should at least made you reconsider your position. But no, you're still pushing that Kone's an "ethnic greek" and dismissing everything that come's your way that points to him being an ethnic Albanian. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 10:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

(Ignore excessive wp:NPA violations) Kone declared that all of his relatives in Albania are Greeks, that's well established in the press. If you have a personal disagreement with that this isn't the right noticeboard to express your feelings. Until now all your attempts to remove this were a complete failure (off-wiki included).Alexikoua (talk) 12:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It might appear as a large scale conspiracy to you but refuting the entire press can't be considered a serious argument, let's sum it up:

• Παρουσιάστηκε ο Κονέ (in Greek). http://www.onsports.gr. 4 September 2011. Retrieved 17 January 2015. Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks) {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)
• Παρουσιάστηκε ο Κονέ (in Greek). http://www.gazzetta.gr. 4 September 2011. Retrieved 17 January 2015. Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks) {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)
• Π.Κονέ (in Greek). http://www.ishow.gr. 25 February 2012. Retrieved 17 January 2015. Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks) {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)
• Π.Κονέ (in Greek). http://www.difernews.gr. 4 September 2011. Retrieved 17 January 2015. Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks) {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)
• Κονέ: «Ομάδα με ιστορία η Μπολόνια» (in Greek). http://www.novasports.gr. 4 September 2011. Retrieved 17 January 2015. Έχω ακόμα κάποια μέλη της οικογένειάς μου στην Αλβανία, αλλά είναι όλοι τους Έλληνες (Some members of my family still live Albania, but they are all Greeks) {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)

After all the above you still insist that this is simply an error.Alexikoua (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you answer my questions instead of polluting the talk page with these sources? Linking to them is enough, there's no need to copy/paste because it brings nothing new to the table (you had already linked to them). Answer my questions instead. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Intentional or not, the most reliable text here is the Italian one. Since most of the material from Greek portals is copy-paste-translate (it happens with Albanian ones as well), the most reliable piece is the interview in Italian. Any Greek material was based on that since the conference was held in Italy. The Italian piece says "I am Greek..." not "they are Greeks..." ("...Greco in tutto..." not "...Greci in tutto..."). If it was an Italian translation of a press-conference with Greek journalists I would understand, but this is the other way around.--Mondiad (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

In fact the most reliable text is Kone's Greek original statement in the specific press conference. Moreover, the vast majority are not "portals" but serious online sports newspapers (novasports, sport-fm, onsports etc.)that avoid idiotic-style mistranslations of that kind (from Greek to Greek there is no need for translation by the way).Alexikoua (talk) 16:21, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Please clarify: what part of Kone's statement was in Greek and how do you know this? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:33, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing to clarify further. In fact you need to explain this so-called "mistralation conspiracy hypothesis" of the entire press. Although Kone's Greek origin has been removed, you still insist to remove his exact comments. I'm afraid that's the epitomy of disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 14:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Of course there is. You claim that Kone's Greek original statement in the specific press conference. The press conference on youtube is entirely in Italian. So, that's why I ask: which part was in Greek? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 15:05, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Well for those interested, the late Georgina Kretsi did fieldwork in Southern Albania and in Greece regarding Albanian migrants and name changes. For more see: Georgina Kretsi, ‘Shkëlzen ou Giannis? Changement de prénom et stratégies identitaires, entre culture d'origine et migration [Shkëlzen or Giannis? Change of Name and Identity strategies, between Culture of Origin and Migration]’, Balkanologie IX, Vol.1, No.2, 2005. [13].05:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Personal Life Trivia

@Alexikoua and Mondiad:

• To prevent being discriminated in Greece he says "I'm Kone, the Albanian"
• Some of his relatives still live in Albania
• His brother, Sotiris, owns a bar in Athens.

are all trivia.

And I'd argue that "He changed his name to Panagiotis because of naturalization process" should somehow be included earlier, just after his birth name. Maybe it's not even necessary to mention the "neutralization process". I suggest something along the lines of: Panagiotis Kone (born as Gjergji Kone).... DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

No. 1&3 are not necessary indeed, but guess you are kidding me about #2 which should included with the addition "Although Greeks... ", which you are eager to remove.Alexikoua (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

That piece is a wrong translation of the Italian text "ma sonno Greco in tutto e per tutto...". All Greek sources are copy-paste. Instead of putting "eimai" they put "einai". Intentional or not, I don't know. But the Italian source says "I have still relatives who live in Albania, but I am Greek in all and for all", not "they are Greek in all and for all". A mistranslation is used to derive the ethnicity ok Kone's relatives against the primary sources (Italian ones), and from there go back and derive Kone's ethnicity.--Mondiad (talk) 01:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to matter how many times I ask questions with regards to this part, you won't bother answering them. For example, which parts of the press conference were in Greek? Why is the quoted material literally the same in Greek media? Is this plausible? Why is the material in Italian media identical (apart from "I am Greek" in Italian media, and "They are Greek" in Greek media). Why did Italian media publish it one day before? You could either answer these questions, or keep being evasive about it and use words such as "conspiracy". I'm not too worried though, I think it will be settled sooner or later. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Moreover, why in a naturalization process in Greece someone should change Georgios to Panagiotis, as I know both names are common among Greeks.Alexikoua (talk) 21:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Read the Kretsi article i have placed above. Albanian immigrants have been taking on names which they think suits their interests at that moment. Kone's parents may not have known the Greek equivalent of Gjergj at that point in time as they probably knew no Greek.Resnjari (talk) 05:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Edit-warring changes by IP

The matter of Kone making the gesture of the Albanian eagle was discussed in the past and the consensus was not to include it. However an edit-warring IP will not stop reverting and adding POV material to the body of the article and at the lead. These are the usual edit-warring methods by socks and IPs plaguing these articles. These changes must be reverted as they reflect no consensus and were done by edit-warring instead of discussion. Dr. K. 14:50, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I assume it's a well known block evading account behind this. Maybe a protection request will solve this kind of disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 05:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)