Talk:Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire

Heavy cleanup

Following a conversation with Crimmels, I've heavily pared down this article. Prior to my edits, it was violating WP:COPYVIO and was very much an advertisement. Taken from this last version:

• article: "The Faire also hosts The Celtic Fling’s Highland Games, officially sanctioned by the Mid-Atlantic Scottish Athletics Association. Pre-registered participants – both men and women – compete in judged events including the Scottish Hammer, the Sheaf Toss, the Clachneart and the Caber Toss. The athlete with the best overall combined performance earns the title “Athlete of the Day” and an automatic berth in the East Coast Championships."
• site: "The Celtic Fling’s Highland Games, officially sanctioned by the Mid-Atlantic Scottish Athletics Association, add to the thrill of Saturday’s competitions. Pre-registered participants – both men and women – compete in judged events including the Scottish Hammer, the Sheaf Toss, the Clachneart or “Stone of Strength, and impressive Caber Toss involving an 18-foot tree trunk weighing up to 150 pounds. The athlete with the best overall combined performance earns the title “Athlete of the Day” and an automatic berth in the East Coast Championships."

• article: "In 2000, Scott Bowser founded the Swashbuckler Brewing Company, the first brewery ever on the grounds of the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire. Scott started the brewery on a small 3 bbl system, creating hand-crafted ales and lagers. In one season demand rose to the point that the small brewery was insufficient, so Scott expanded to a much larger 12 bbl system. The Swashbuckler Brewing Company is now in its 8th year of production."
• site: " Starting on a small 3 bbl system, Scott began producing fine hand crafted ales and lagers for all the faire patrons to enjoy. Little did he know, that in just one season his small brewery would be insufficient for keeping up with the demand of the patrons for beer. He then expanded to a much larger 12 bbl system, and has been able to keep all of the patrons happy with a never ending supply of fine ales and lagers. Now in its 8th year of production..."

So I've removed all the copyvio text and knocked out all of the advertisement stuff. Many of the references given before were really just external links to the official site in ref tags, so I've ditched most of those and gotten some actual references. The article is considerably more neutral now, I think. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong and I discussed what needed to be changed with the page, but he was unwilling to work with me. After he edited the page, most of the information was incorrect. I deleted everything other than the first paragraph so no one can possibly dispute that it is an advertisement and so all of the information is correct. CORRECT information can be found at the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire's website, PaRenFaire.com.Crimmels (talk) 15:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Really. Tell me what parts are incorrect, and we can discuss making changes to them. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll freely admit that I'm an employee of the PRF, but we just want the actual facts on the website. How about we work together and discuss this? Yes, we want people to come to the Faire, but we want the facts on here, and as an employee I have the best access to the facts. I'm more than willing to work with you, but instead of cutting down what I spent two days working on, why don't you tell me specifically what you have problems with? I'm more than fine with edits, but rewrites that end up making the whole page wrong don't help anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimmels (talk • contribs) 15:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I removed the stuff you thought was a copyright violation. I'm used to MLA format, so I didn't realize that was a problem.Crimmels (talk) 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so, couple of problems. The first is that your original version was full of text that violated copyrights. On Wikipedia, that is illegal, so all of that text had to go. The second is a question of verifiability. Directly from that policy: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." So even though you work for PARF, the fact that you know something to be true does not mean that we can include it here. That sounds a little funny and somewhat counterintuitive, but those are the rules, and we have to play by them.

Next is WP:ADVERT. Your version - that is, the one with all the subsections (this one, let's say) is that it comes off reading like an advertisement. There is no reason that we need to mention every single event that happens on the grounds. "Green and Growing" does not need to be on the page. So too for every theater event and everything that's ever happened. You're adding way, way too much undue weight to those events.

Now tell me, what in my version is incorrect? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

We employ far more than 35 full-time employees, who spend much more than 5 weeks learning how to perform. There's also no reason to delete the themed weekends, as they were there before I ever started editing.

The pub is not used for any performances during the Faire season. The shows that do take place in the pub are comedic in nature, with very little music incorporated.

There is no reason to delete information about all the festivals, as they are for informational purposes only. The PRF is one of the only Renaissance Faires in the county that has a year-round performance/festival schedule and gets thousands of visitors to almost every outdoor activity, which is why all of the festivals should have their own section.

Because my version is more informational, let's go back to that and we can work together to delete the parts that are unacceptable.Crimmels (talk) 16:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If I might interject a point, one of the areas in which this article is sorely lacking is references from reliable third-party sources, such as newspapers, TV news, magazines, and the like. I'm sure you (Crimmels) are much more aware of what media and others are writing and saying about PRF; can you point us to some news and other reports on the Faire (from organizations not associated directly with PRF)? Preferably a variety of reports, not just multiple copies of a single AP story. Thanks, cmadler (talk) 16:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Look, Crimmels, this is a non-negotiable point. Your current version - the one that you've reverted to many times now - contains a great deal of copyright violating text. And it can't stay that way. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

We need to start from the version with no copyright violation and add information, rather than starting from the version with copyright violation and removing. Also, keep in mind that statements need to have reliable, third-party sources - not just links to the PRF site. cmadler (talk) 16:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I can't find a source for the Bowsers purchasing PARF. No articles mention it, and there isn't anything on the official site about it. All I can find is stuff on Bowser making beer. This book has some stuff on that, but not much. Can you find anything, cmadler? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

This press release says "Scott Bowser is managing partner of the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire. Bowser, along with his wife, established the Swashbuckler Brewing Company at the Faire and now owns 14 of the food and beverage venues on the grounds. The Bowsers also opened the Summy House Restaurant in Manheim." But that doesn't say owner of the whole thing. Hmm.. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I've added that book as a better (independent) citation for the history of the brewery. cmadler (talk) 16:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I just found this article which says that they have 100+ actors, so I added that in. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

As for ownership, I think "managing partner" suggests a co-owner in a partnership, but I'm a bit wary of using that as a citation for the ownership of the faire. cmadler (talk) 20:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Should we ditch the line about a change of ownership, then? Seems a little too contentious to have in without a source. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Doing a little primary research...[1] lists the owner as "MAZZA VINEYARDS INC". That in turn lists "Heather M. Bowser" as "President" [2] but now ownership information is given. Still looking... cmadler (talk) 16:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Images

I've added a (very) low resolution copy of the logo, and one photo from Flickr. There are a lot of appropriately-licensed photos of the faire on Flickr, but I've never been there, and I don't really know what should be illustrated. I think this article is coming along nicely, but I also don't know if there are key aspects of the faire that the article is overlooking. Thoughts? cmadler (talk) 20:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It's a good question. The Maryland Renaissance Festival article has a line about number of stalls, bars, and so on. Maybe something like that? I'm not really sure how much else there's to add here without sourcing.. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess part of my question is, if we assumed we could find sources for any information we wanted to include, what other information would we want to include? This is already one of, if not the most complete and thoroughly sourced renaissance fair/fest article on Wikipedia, and if we think of this as a "model" for this type of article, what else should it include? I'm going to look at articles about other types of fairs and events to see if I can get any ideas. cmadler (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at a bunch of the other articles, and none of them are particularly good. One thing I've seen is a list of notable people involved in faires, like famous alumni and such. But is it worth mentioning the normal things like "they have food and games and toys and shows"? Probably not. And I don't really think it'd be very encyclopedic to have a list of people who perform there, unless they're really notable. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't list performers unless they are truly notable. I've been adding some details about the activities, but only to the extent that I can find specific information from sources. (See my last couple edits in the "Attractions" section relating to number of restaurants, specific performances, etc.) cmadler (talk) 17:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Added a Commons category for the Faire, added several of the better photos with appropriate licenses from Flickr. I still don't know if these photos are at all representative of the Faire, or if there are key things that should be illustrated that are missing. There are a lot more photos on Flickr which we could use (see here). cmadler (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic Scottish Athletics Association

The reason I had put the fact tag there was because I can't actually find any secondary sources on the organization, or that the PARF is sanctioned by them. Bing only returns 5 hits, all of which look like they're from the press release, and Google isn't any better really. Just seems very strange... — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 19:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will be reviewing this article. I see some serious problems. First, the article reads like an advertisement rather than an encyclopedic entry. Second, some material in the History section and all the material in the Events section are digressions and should to be removed. They belong in an article on the Mount Hope Estate and Winery rather than this article. Phrases like "the largest in the world" need citations. Whenever claims to being the largest, the smallest, the most popular, the richest, etc., a source for the claim must be cited. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 13:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• I removed the claim about the jousting arena being the largest outside Europe, because it is uncited. I reworded the phrase about the attendance of the faire in attempt to make the citation more clear. cmadler (talk) 14:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I've copyedited and revised the article. Let me know what you think. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• I've moved a lot of the other material to a newly-created article on the Mount Hope Estate. cmadler (talk) 15:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Hey I don't know if matters too much, but the Commons category box was removed in the copyedit that Kathy did. It doesn't matter to me if you guys don't want it; just wanted to point that out in case nobody noticed. Killiondude (talk) 17:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm guessing that was a mistake, but I'm not sure where to put the Commonscat box now. cmadler (talk) 17:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I tossed it into the External links section, as it seemed to be the best place for now. Any objections? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 19:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
• Kathryn, you were right - a lot of that stuff did belong in the Mount Hope article. I noticed you removed the image from the article; would you advocate putting it back in, or was it removed because it violated WP:ADVERT or something? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 19:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I agree. See my comment in the next section regarding the apparent operational structure. cmadler (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

FINAL REVIEW:

• I'm not entirely satisfied with the sources. Some are at least decade old. Surely, more recent sources exist and should be cited.
• The article is not entirely stable. Some discussion exists.
• The article fails most significantly in broad coverage. A lot of questions remain unanswered. For example, what is the faire's annual "take at the door". How does this compare to other faires in the US and worldwide? What impact does the faire have environmentally with 250,000 spectators trampling about 35 acres for 12 weekends? Do locals complain of traffic, trash, noise? What impact does the faire have culturally? How is it ranked artistically among other faires of its kind? I would like to see a review of the faire from a competent critic. What are the "good things" about the faire, and what are the "not so good things"? Some "production details" would be appreciated. Who designed the faire? How are the various structures designed, built, and completed? An aerial photograph of the fairgrounds would give the reader an idea of its magnitude. These are only a few of the many such questions that should be asked and answered.

With some reluctance, I feel the article fails some significant criteria and needs much work before it can be deemed a GA. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

Uh.. why did we merge this article into the Mount Hope article? It's not like this article wasn't established in terms of notability... — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 23:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I'm reverting for now. I think each deserves their own article, a little bit of overlap in information is inevitable. 23:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I just reverted, but... the article seems to have been hacked down... :-/ I haven't been following too closely, but this merger should have discussions. Killiondude (talk) 23:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

It was cut down as part of the GA review. By and large I agree with the cutting down, as about half of that stuff was only tangentially related to the faire itself; it was moved to Mount Hope Estate, which is where this was redirected. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 23:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This stand alone article on the PA Ren Faire, in this reviewer's opinion, does not warrant a stand alone article as there is insufficient reliable secondary sources. The Faire is part of "something bigger" and properly belongs with that "something bigger" until it expands to such vastness with appropriate reliable secondary sources that breaking it off to a stand alone is warranted. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 00:38, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The PARF appears to me to easily meet WP:N with multiple instances of significant (non-trivial) coverage in a variety of reliable sources independent of the subject. I suspect, in fact, that were it not NRHP-listed, Mount Hope Estate wouldn't merit its own article, but would continue as a section of this one; a Google search for "Mount Hope Estate" turns up mostly links relating to PARF. Consider also that the other activities (mentioned in the recently removed article content) appear to be operated (publicity, ticket sales, etc.) through PARF rather than directly by Mount Hope Estate and Winery. This organizational structure becomes apparent after just a minute or two of poking around on the PARF website and Googling the various activities and entities. After thinking the matter over a while, I'm beginning to think that Mount Hope Estate should deal primarily with the historical (NRHP location) elements, while the modern tourism and entertainment elements (including the brewery and the winery) should be consolidated into this article. If there must be a merge, I wonder if it shouldn't be into this article (most commonly used name). cmadler (talk) 01:56, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure I agree with you on merging the Mount Hope stuff into this article. For example, the stuff about tours and the Celtic Fling are only tangentially related to PARF. In an ideal world they would be notable enough to have their own article, and the Mount Hope Estate article would be the one to tie all of them together. But in this case, I think we need to keep things separated. I guess my question would be, is Mount Hope really notable enough to have its own article? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:06, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that the NRHP listing establishes, not definite notability, but a presumption. The NRHP Inventory/Nomination form (official record of the listing) gives two pages of sources (mostly secondary, though some primary) relating to the history of the site and geneaology of its residents. For 100 years it was a major iron-producing center in eastern PA, and for about 30 years it appears to have been the most important in PA. I'm no architect, but from what I've read, it has some architectural significance as well, something to do with the construction of the original Federal house (1800-05) and then with the way the 1895 Victorian-style additions and alterations mesh with the original house. cmadler (talk) 03:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Newspaper articles cited are essentially schedules, admittance fees, performance times, etc. and such material makes the article and advertisement rather than an encyclopedic entry. Some date to 1998 and 2003 and are surely outdated and should be replaced with reliable sources from 2008 or 2009. I haven't time at the moment to pursue this but will get back to you. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 00:38, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Post GA...

So where do we go now? I think Cmadler and I pretty thoroughly exhausted the sources for this article. I don't think we're going to be able to add the type of info that Kathryn suggested in the GA review - at least, not without violating a great many rules. But I'm at a loss; what now? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 05:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested content follows, broken down into points, as a to-do list. cmadler (talk) 13:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• What is the faire's annual "take at the door".
  • It's a privately-owned business, so there's no way to know unless they tell someone. The Central Penn Business article (1998) says, "Gross sales for wine purchases and tickets for shows at the Mount Hope Estates--including Christmas, Halloween, Roaring '20s and other theme performances--hover around $4 million, according to Romito. The budget to produce the faire is $2 million."
    • This could be integrated into the article. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Done. Feel free to adjust the wording. cmadler (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
• How does this compare to other faires in the US and worldwide?
  • Most such faires are privately-owned, so there's no way to know unless they tell someone. In terms of worldwide attendance figures, Consuming History (2008) implies that it is among the largest in the world; after discussing faires in Europe and mentioning that the largest in the UK draws 30,00 annually, it says, "In the USA, Renaissance Festivals and Faires...are much larger in scale: the Maryland Renaissance Faire covers 25 acres and attracts 225,000 visitors over three weeks; the Pennsylvaniai Ranaissance Faire attracts 250,000 over 12 weekends; the Bristol, Wisconsin Renaissance Faire - 'Where Fantasy Rules!' - had a highpoint of 400,000 over seven weekends in 1990."
    • This entire passage could be cited as a comparison of the various faires and the PARF's place among others. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 19:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Done. Feel free to adjust the wording. cmadler (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
• What impact does the faire have environmentally with 250,000 spectators trampling about 35 acres for 12 weekends?
• Do locals complain of traffic, trash, noise?
• What impact does the faire have culturally?
• How is it ranked artistically among other faires of its kind?
• I would like to see a review of the faire from a competent critic.
  • Are there any serious Renaissance faire critics?
    • A journalist apparently reviewed the Bristol Faire so there are reviews of these sorts of events "out-there".Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
• What are the "good things" about the faire, and what are the "not so good things"?
• Some "production details" would be appreciated.
• Who designed the faire?
• How are the various structures designed, built, and completed?
  • Pennsylvania Breweries has a brief mention of this, inasmuch as Bowser, the brewer, is also the general contractor for the faire.
• An aerial photograph of the fairgrounds would give the reader an idea of its magnitude.
  • Yeah, this would be nice; how can we get one?
    • If there is not one on the Official Website (that they would be more than glad to have posted to WP) then we have to "snap" one ourselves! Material from the Off. Web can be cited here as long as it is not "analytical". List of happenings, who designed the buildings, etc. are fine but statements like "the most popular faire in the Northeast" cannot be cited from the Off. Web. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
      • There's this one, but I don't think we can get it in, as it's not particularly clear on its copyright. Can I just snap it from gmaps? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 19:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
        • I don't think we can use Google Maps. See Google_Maps#Copyright. cmadler (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
          • You could use a shot from NASA World Wind. It has a layer where you can use USGS images, which are in the public domain. I just heard about this program a day or two ago, but haven't gotten a chance to download it and check it out. Killiondude (talk) 20:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Sections

I've started adding sections to the page. If you can give them better names, feel free to. May make the article easier to explore. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so if there are any suggestions you have, please let me know. Thanks. Gehrc (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

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Municipality error

I changed the location to reflect "Rapho Township" instead of "Manheim Township." While the faire has an address in the community of Manheim, that is not the same thing as Manheim Township, which is a direct suburb of Lancaster City. The faire is located much further north, on the border of Rapho and Penn townships. I am very familiar with this area, not only as a resident, but also as a first responder and former 911 employee that utilized GIS mapping for that area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.84.129.124 (talk) 06:43, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

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