Talk:Peter Carmichael

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Incorrect statement[edit]

Moved comment from Revsandy01 from the article (see this edit: [1]):

"The statement: "the only recorded victory of a British piston-engined aircraft over a jet fighter" is incorrect. British pilots flying piston engined aircraft in the Second World War shot down a number of both German Me. 262 and Arado 234. For example in Osprey's Griffon Spitfire Aces by Andrew Thomas page 45 there is a description of a Spitfire shooting down a Me 262. I suspect the line should have said: the only recorded victory of a British piston-engined aircraft over a jet fighter during the Korean War."

No idea about the validity or otherwise but the contributor probably didn't realise this should be raised on the talk page, rather than the article. Anybody know if this is correct? Anotherclown (talk) 06:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is. Spitfire XIVs and Tempest Vs destroyed a number of German jets in 1944-5. But, even with 'during the Korean War' added, the article's claim is slightly misleading. True, but misleading. The reader is invited to conclude that American prop fighters destroyed lots of MiG-15s, but they didn't. The only other United Nations prop fighter to destroy a MiG-15, some weeks after Carmichael's feat, was a USMC Corsair. And the Marine pilot was himself immediately shot down by a second MiG, which sort of spoilt the look of the thing. (Carmichael's formation saw off eight MiGs, killing one and damaging another, and all returned safely to the carrier.) Just one USAF F-51D pilot filed a claim for a MiG, but it was disallowed. Even the F-80 jet only accounted for two MiGs confirmed (out of six claimed). Khamba Tendal (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reassignment of Claim to Smoo Ellis[edit]

FlyPast magazine, October 2017, News p.8, has this: 'Shortly after our September issue closed for press we learned that former Hawker Sea Fury pilot Lt Brian Ellis had been officially credited with shooting down a MiG-15 on August 9, 1952. This had previously been credited to Cdr Peter Carmichael, as stated in that month's Spotlight. We're pleased to set the record straight. With thanks to Steve Jones'

There is a Times article from July, of which the opening paragraphs can be read without registering: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dogfight-s-famous-kill-finally-credited-to-rightful-pilot-9q9wlbdtl

Not sure what new information could have come to hand after all this time, or what 'official' means exactly. Air combat is confusing and it was always stated by Peter Carmichael that Smoo Ellis, and Carl Haines, and Pete Davies, had hit the MiG. There was also the second MiG, which was last seen retiring hurt. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:13, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see that RNAS Yeovilton, who are 'official' if you like, are hosting Smoo to give a talk on 22 September, and they only say that he 'took part in the dog-fight that shot down the MiG-15.' https://www.navywings.org.uk/news-blog/sea-fury-65/ That sounds a little as though the media may be misreporting the Navy's award of a shared claim to Smoo. Unfortunately, buying a £100 ticket, going down to Yeovilton and asking Smoo himself what the state of play actually is... would count as 'original research.' Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Right. This blog post quotes the full Times article. http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10166388 And there's nothing 'official' in it. It's just The Times bigging up what Smoo told their reporter, plus some unfortunate wardroom bitching by another pilot back in the day. (And that pilot, Paddy McKeown, wasn't there and wouldn't know.) Smoo specifically states that he did not see the MiG go down because, with eight MiGs after four Sea Furies, he was a mite busy just then. (He would therefore have no sole claim.) The award of the claim to the flight leader was always something of a formality and it was always known that other pilots had taken pieces out of the MiG. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:50, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The claim is disputed. That’s what the edit reflects. I did not ‘re-assign’ the claim. However, given the nature of the situation, Ellis’ claim should be noted. MWFwiki (talk) 09:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]