Talk:Proposed Illyrian vocabulary

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Sound series[edit]

"the Indo-European voiced aspirates /bʰ/, /dʰ/, /ɡʰ/ became voiced consonants /b/, /d/, /ɡ/". Well, that one is the traditional or Greco-Sanskrit theory. The glottalic theory states that there was not a /bʰ/, /dʰ/, /ɡʰ/ series, but instead a /b/, /d/, /ɡ/ one; and that the traditional /b/, /d/, /ɡ/ series was instead a /p'/, /t'/, /k'/ glottalic one, later becomen a pre-glottalized one (/'p/, /'t/, /'k/) that finally yielded a /b/, /d/, /ɡ/ series. This would account for the "/bʰ/, /dʰ/, /ɡʰ/ becomen into /b/, /d/, /ɡ/" phenomenon in some of the IE language families, and for the scarcity of "original [b] sound" (according to traditional theory), because of the difficulty in articulating [p'].--Manfariel (talk) 13:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Teuta, Teutana[edit]

In one part of the article, it is related to PIE teuta, but in the section South Illyrian it reads "means Queen in Illyrian". Perhapas Classical sources (not desire to check them just now) mention a "Teuta Queen" or "Queen Teuta", meaning "queen of the people", but misunderstanding "Teuta" for a personal name? Cf. the Gaulish god Teutates, "national god of the Gauls, father of the men", meaning father of the people (teuta-people, Brythonic tad-father; albeit people is reconstructed for Proto-Celtic as touta).--Manfariel (talk) 13:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Illyrian: Teuta(na) ('mistress of the people', 'queen')". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language#Inherited --Manfariel (talk) 13:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*bagaron (βαγαρόν)[edit]

I have researched extensively this term but I've found nothing that suggest it is an Illyrian word. This lemma seems to be considered Illyrian solely thanks to Pokorny, which lists it as "Gk.-Illyr". But it is indeed a Laconian word, not Illyrian (Here and here). If I'm missing something feel free to correct me, otherwise I'll just remove this word. Herakliu (talk) 10:48, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*abeis (ἄβεις)[edit]

This term is likewise very problematic. In Hesychius we have <ἄβεις>· ἔχεις but nowhere he states that this word has anything to do with Illyrian. The usual Pokorny talks about "gr. (illyr).". Moreover the translation is incorrect! "ἔχεις" doesn't mean vipers but it is the second-person singular present active indicative of ἔχω, which means "to have". If there aren't any objections, I'll procede to remove this bad entry. Herakliu (talk) 12:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*brisa (brisa)[edit]

Last but not least, *brisa from Latin "brisa" where Pokorny "derives Illyr. brīsa ‘skins of pressed grapes”; no further explanation and no other reference. If there are no objection I'll remove it Herakliu (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bosna and bostan[edit]

About 1970 I was in Sarajevo for three days, and was lead through the city and around everyday by a lady working at city/national library (I don't recall the name). She explained a lot of toponymes of Turkish origin (bezistan, bazar etc.).

She also explained Bosna ("Vrelo Bosne", en. source of river Bosna) as "cold water" (which at the source really is cold even in the hottest part of the year), with analogy of "bostan", en. watermelon; the explanation implied "bos-" would mean water, "-na" would imply cold and "-tan" a bulbous, mellon like fruit, and both words as pre-Turkish and pre-Slavic, possibly Illyrian.

It seemed to make sense, because I encountered watermelon called "bostan" besides "lubenica" in most of the Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in Serbia around Niš, and in Montenegro, that otherwise have significant differences in vocabulary etc.

So it seemed to be at last transdialect if not translanguage (I recall it to be used also by medresa schooled people in Bosnia, and by Albanians from Kosovo), which could imply loanword from previous source into several languages.

Lately, I loked a bit into words for watermelon in other languages around, and

I am sorry to not know anything about her sources, and her possible linguistic background for her reasoning and interpretation of those sources. The nationl library in Sarajevo was targeted in war in late 20 century and even if she documented her research I don't know if the documents, or even she, survived, so this is out of article stuff, and just meant to motivate other people to be on lookout for possible sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marjan Tomki SI (talk • contribs) 01:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dassa/daksa and det[edit]

In one of the table the Albanian "det" is shown to be a cognate with the Illyrian *dassa/*daksa, and is unsourced. As far as I know det has been reconstructed as *deubeta in Proto-Albanian, from PIE *dʰéubetos meaning "deep", I don't know exactly if the Illyrian term has the same etymology or if the two were just put their without care for looking as any source, could anyone check that? ALBA-CENTAURI (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian "det" being a cognate of Illyrian "dassa/daksa" does not have any reliable source in the article. "Dassa/daksa" being an Illyrian word for "water/sea" has an academic source there. IMO, the connection with water bodies might be reasonable, but the connection with the sea specifically is frivolous. The root dassa/daksa was in the name of a river (Ardaxanos) and a tribe that lived far away from the sea (Dassaretae). Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ALBA-CENTAURI and Ktrimi991, this entry is a mistake of mine, please feel free to delete it. Actually I would say that almost the entire proposed cognates column is problematic since it cites little to no sources. I didn't delete it in the hope that somebody would add more citations, but some of the entries there look absolutely random.

Feel free to correct it, in the limit of common sense of course. Herakliu (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, I will take a careful look at what various academic sources say and will try to improve the article. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]