Talk:Providence, Rhode Island/Archive 2

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mainstays, rum and the lash?

"In the mid-1770s, the British government levied taxes that impeded Providence's maritime, fishing and agricultural industries, the mainstay of the city's economy. One example was the Sugar Act, which was a tax levied against Providence's distilleries that adversely affected its trade in rum and slaves."

This doesn't read right. The link between taxing (and taxes tend to be _on_ rather than _against_ although if the intention to close the industry down eg in favour of more loyal areas in eg the W Indies was documentd that would be interesting, I think it is actually just US-centric though) distilleries and impeding the slave trade is wholly unclear to me at least. If the slave trade was a mainstay of the economy it should be in the previous sentence. If not, then unless there is a clear link, it shouldn't be in that sentence, should it?

Propose: sub on for against; Delete and slaves. And on grounds of style, change that adversely affected to adversely affecting. Indeed, since a sugar tax will only significantly affect rum distilleries, not other sorts, just say taxation under the sugar act adversely affected the rum distilleries. Midgley (talk) 10:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Virtually all the history is taken from here. It says:


--Louiedog (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Cityscape

The image or text is blending in with the regular text or the image, just a notice btw nice starred article. --Hotelmoon (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The current version of the Cityscape section has one causality error and a rhetorical devise used that, whether intended or not, prompts a negative perspective of the city's streetscape. The causality error is in the third sentence where density is attributed to the reason why people are able to walk to work. This is only partly true. Density is a contributing factor; however, alone density cannot cause a city to be walkable. Criteria for "walkability" and Providence's score can be found here (http://blog.walkscore.com/2010/08/street-smart-walk-score/) and here(http://www.walkscore.com/RI/Providence). To make matters worse, there is a negative connotation with density, whereas this is not the case for the other components of the walkscore. These include proximity of residences to work, shopping, and recreation as well as the number of intersections, etc. This brings about another point of contention- the use of the word "Chaotic" to describe the street pattern.

Using the words "chaotic" and "haphazard" to describe the streets may fit with the rhetoric of one writer from a website, and is a rhetorical liberty on the part of the author. The same rhetoric can be used to describe similar road patterns in the Greenwich Village, NYC or of the historic district of Rome, Italy- both of which have a high desirability. The problem is that this word has a negative connotation. The roads can be viewed as chaotic, intricate, highly networked, or even as promoting walkability (as seen in the methods for walkscore.com). Each of these has a different connotation, and chaotic is the most negative of these. While a highly networked road system is not optimized for vehicular traffic, they offer pedestrians more opportunities to get places faster and allow segregation of spaces into alleys for deliveries and the like. Connotation is huge when people are looking at where to visit for their next vacation or even children growing up in the area and forming their opinion of the city. It is important to remember that Wikipedia may be used by many who know little about Providence and there are plenty of successes to celebrate for Providence that can be equally represented over the "chaotic" street pattern. I apologize for this long description; however, my changes were rejected and I was told to defend my case here.

Below, I make recommended revisions to expand the incorrect causallity and remove the negative connotation of chaos:

The city of Providence is geographically very compact, characteristic of eastern seaboard cities which developed prior to the expansion of automobile use. It is among the most densely populated cities in the country. This density and the proximity of residential, retail, and office space affords residents of Inner-City Providence with the ability to walk to work and shopping (http://blog.walkscore.com/2010/08/street-smart-walk-score/, http://www.walkscore.com/RI/Providence). Providence has the eighth-highest percentage of pedestrian commuters in the United States. The street layout reflects an organic form like those of Earlier cities that did not have city-wide master plans (http://code.google.com/p/micropolis/wiki/History) with over one thousand streets evolving from traditionally bustling places like Market Square. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.107.46.241 (talk) 19:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

On the first point, I don't know. It's worthless to have an office building next to a residential neighborhood if (as in the case in suburbs) the distances are large. Density is more important. Given how residential most neighborhoods are proximity is not what makes the pedestrian commute so common. I'd chalk up the majority of pedestrian commuting to the 40,000 college students in the city and maybe a good chunk of professors living in the East Side. No one really lives downtown.
As for "chaos", Wikipedia is not a travel guide and I doubt the word "chaotic" would make the difference between visiting and not, and it may in fact make it all the more alluring to those living in boring circuitboard-type cities. A quick glance at the city's layout shows how haphazard the street layout is: you wind up with approximate grids being wedged between main streets which shoot every which way, in comparison to a city like New Haven, which started with a grid which distorted a bit as it radiated out. It really does speak to the texture of the city that its streets are so randomly laid.--Louiedog (talk) 21:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the IP that the word "chaotic" is not helpful, a description of how and why the streetscape is as it s is more useful. The wording "chaotic" is not neutral or particularly descriptive (unless one presupposes a completely straight street grid which most cities in the world don't have anyway).·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
You're falling into a false dichotomy as there are plenty of examples in between Phoenix and Boston, like for example Dallas or Baltimore. Also, there is an explanation of "how" and "why" in addition to the simple descriptive statement that it's chaotic, as used in the source.--Louiedog (talk) 15:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

"Seemingly erratic streets"?

The streets might seem erratic to Americans who are used to cities laid out on "modern" grid plans. They would seem very normal indeed to most of the rest of the world's population who are used to more organically growing cities. So I think this statement should be changed, but I'm not sure how to word it... -- 77.187.136.231 (talk) 13:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Ref needed for "third largest city"

Clicking on New England#Urban_New_England doesn't work. (Maybe the heading is no longer there?) It means having to hunt through New England for the reference (which I never did find). Why not have it in the article? I question whether it is the third largest city in New England. Please justify why the tag should not be replaced? KennethSides (talk) 18:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not a reference, it's a prominent list in the article. Turns out the New England article has just renamed that section to New_England#Largest_cities. Frustratingly, the reference in question is just given as http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/index.xhtml because the Census Bureau completely messed up their format to the point where no one can find anything.--Louiedog (talk) 18:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Timeline of Providence, Rhode Island

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 11:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Do we need to duplicate the History section

I'm not clear why this "Providence" article has a "History" section which is basically duplicated in a separate history article. Shouldn't the "history" section on this article be deleted, and just point to that other, fuller article instead? (ie, have one, or the other, but not both.) - Kzirkel (talk) 18:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The History section was an exact duplication of the History of Providence, Rhode Island article, as pointed out by Kzirkel above. I have trimmed it back, covering only significant highlights and leaving the smaller details for the history article. The focus on this page should be on providing a current picture of the city today. Dilidor (talk) 16:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Fishy story from June 1725

For Providence pre-Revolutionary history buffs, I ran across this in the July 3-10, 1725 New England Courant and laughed. File:New_England_Courant_July_3_10_1725_p2_Excerpt_Providence_Sturgeon.png "Boston July 10. "We hear from Providence, that on Tuesday Night the 22d past (June 22), some evil minded Persons carry'd into the Presbyterian Meeting House there, a stinking Sturgeon of about 8 Foot in Length, and laid it on the Pulpit Floor, where it lay undiscovered till the Sunday following, when it was so much corrupted and putrified, that it was swarm'd with Vermine, and caused such a nausious Stench, that the People could not assemble in the Meeting House, but were forc'd to perform their Exercise in the Orchard."--Milowent • hasspoken 20:12, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Collage photo alignment

Regarding this edit, @Filetime: another way to get the photos to align would be to crop either the University Hall one to make it squarer or the Weybosset Street one to make it longer. If you don't want to swap out the University Hall one, could you do one of those things instead? (To create the cropped image, just use CropTool.) {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Featured Article in need of review

As part of the ongoing project WP:URFA/2020, that aims to identify and draw attention to older Featured Articles that may not meet the current Featured Article criteria, I'm leaving this brief review of the article.

This is an older Featured Article that has not been reviewed since its promotion in 2007.

  • The lead does not adequately summarize the article's content.
  • There are several statements in need of inline citations, I've tagged a few but there are more.
  • The article is outdated, with several figures in need of updating from 2007.
  • There are some poor sources in the references, such as Article Alley ("Our members get great free exposure for their work and you can too!"), Bikes At Work (that's a blog) or CityRating.com.

This article is in need of updating. RetiredDuke (talk) 16:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Providence does not meet FA criteria

This article has 13 "citation needed" paragraphs in the article. Even most of the sports section has "citation needed". Also many parts of the article seem to be outdated. I think the article is a C or B-class article.

Areas with Citation Needed

One of the oldest cities in the United States,[citation needed] it was founded in 1636 by Roger Williams, a Reformed Baptist theologian and religious exile from the Massachusetts Bay Colony. He named the area in honor of "God's merciful Providence" which he believed was responsible for revealing such a haven for him and his followers.

The Providence city limits enclose a small geographical region with a total area of 20.5 square miles (53 km2); 18.5 square miles (48 km2) of it is land and the remaining 2.1 square miles (5.4 km2) is water (roughly 10%). Providence is located at the head of Narragansett Bay, with the Providence River running into the bay through the center of the city,[citation needed] formed by the confluence of the Moshassuck and Woonasquatucket Rivers. The Waterplace Park amphitheater and riverwalks line the river's banks through Downtown.

Downtown Providence has numerous 19th-century mercantile buildings in the Federal and Victorian architectural styles, as well as several postmodern and modernist buildings. In particular, a fairly clear spatial separation appears between the areas of pre-1980s development and post-1980s development; West Exchange Street and Exchange Terrace serve as rough boundaries between the two.[citation needed]

Monthly precipitation in Providence ranges from a high of 4.43 inches (112.5 mm) in March to a low of 3.17 inches (80.5 mm) in July.[47] In general, precipitation levels are slightly less in the summer months than the winter months, when Nor'easters can cause significant snowfall and blizzard conditions. Hurricanes are not frequent in coastal New England, although Providence's location at the head of Narragansett Bay makes it vulnerable to them.[citation needed]

The Port of Providence (branded as ProvPort) is the second largest deep-water seaport in New England.[84][citation needed]

Providence is also home to some of toy manufacturer Hasbro's business operations, although their headquarters are in Pawtucket.[citation needed]

In addition, the Community College of Rhode Island, Roger Williams University, and University of Rhode Island have satellite campuses in the city. Between these schools, the number of post-secondary students is approximately 44,000.[93] Higher education exerts a considerable presence in the city's politics and economy, compounded by the fact that Brown University is the city's second-largest employer.[citation needed]

Providence is home to the American Hockey League (AHL) team Providence Bruins, which plays at the Dunkin' Donuts Center (formerly the Providence Civic Center). From 1926 to 1972, the AHL's Providence Reds (renamed the Rhode Island Reds in their last years)[131] played at the Rhode Island Auditorium. In 1972, the team relocated to the Providence Civic Center, where they played until moving to Binghamton, New York, in 1977.[citation needed]

The city has two rugby teams, the Rugby Union team Providence Rugby Football Club, and the Semi-Professional Rugby league team The Rhode Island Rebellion, which play at Classical High School. In 2013 the Rebellion finished the USA Rugby League (USARL) regular season in third place. Their playoff run took them to the USARL Semi-Finals, the first time the Rebellion made the playoffs in its short three-year history.[citation needed]

The Providence Hurling Club was founded in 2015 by Michael Kennelly, David O'Connor, and Michael Walsh. The club is part of the Boston Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA). Since their inauguration the team has captured three cups. The league comprises Worcester, Hartford, Portsmouth, and Concord. UConn Huskies also put forth a team in various play and other university teams are in the process of being established. Home games are played at a pitch located at 50 Obediah Brown Road behind Pleasant View Elementary School. In November 2018, for the first time playoffs were hosted in Providence and Providence took the cup by defeating Worcester.[citation needed]

Major colleges and universities fielding NCAA Division I athletic teams are Brown University and Providence College. The latter is a member of the Big East Conference. Much local hype is associated with games between these two schools or the University of Rhode Island.[citation needed]

Providence is served by T. F. Green Airport in Warwick, and general aviation fields also serve the region. Massport has been promoting T. F. Green as an alternative to Boston's Logan International Airport because of over-crowding.[138] Providence Station is located between the Rhode Island State House and the Downtown district and is served by Amtrak[139] and MBTA Commuter Rail services, with a commuter rail route running north to Boston and south to T.F. Green Airport and Wickford Junction.[140][141] Approximately 2,400 passengers pass through the station per day.[142][143] I-95 runs from north to south through Providence; I-195 connects the city to eastern Rhode Island and southeastern Massachusetts, including New Bedford, Massachusetts and Cape Cod. I-295 encircles Providence, while RI 146 provides a direct connection with Worcester, Massachusetts. The city began the long-term project Iway in 2007 to move I-195 for safety reasons, to free up land, and to reunify the Jewelry District with Downtown Providence, which had been separated by the highway.[144][needs update] The project was estimated to cost $610 million.[citation needed]

Areas that are outdated

Cited needed tags for publicly observable facts

This seems to be a follow-up from discussion on this article's Featured Article Review: the Wikipedia:Common knowledge page has long and uncontroversially included "Plain sight observations that can be made from public property ("A tall spire sits atop the Empire State Building.")" as not requiring citations. As such, let's do a blow-by-blow on all [citation needed] tags just added so we can decide which to keep and which to discard:

1. "The Waterplace Park amphitheater and riverwalks line the river's banks through Downtown". In addition to not being controversial and easily verifiable, it is a plain sight observation observable from public land. Whatever, I added a source anyway.

2. The 3 tags added to the neighborhood section... the source was... you guessed it! The only source in that section. Whatever, I added it again anyway.

3. "Spatial separation appears between the areas of pre-1980s development and post-1980s development; West Exchange Street and Exchange Terrace serve as rough boundaries between the two." In addition to not being controversial and easily verifiable, it is a plain sight observation observable from public land. Whatever, I added a source anyway.

4. "Interstate 95 serves as a physical barrier between the city's commercial core and neighborhoods such as Federal Hill and the West End". In addition to not being controversial and easily verifiable, it is a plain sight observation observable from public land. Whatever, I added a source anyway.

5. There was a [citation needed] tag apparently on Providence being one of the "earliest towns" in Colonial America at the end of the sentence, despite there being a direct citation for that claim 3 words prior.

So, as a personal request: instead of getting trigger happy with those cite needed tags, spend 1 minute and look first. Louiedog (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

I have a couple easy changes I'd like to make. I'd like to make the decennial census data like literally every other siginifcant US city article: Single-column, right-aligned, first item in the Demographics section. User:Nikkimaria objected to this because of formatting issues - the other right-aligned images are pushed further down. IMO, that means other items should get changed to fix the formatting, to bring it in line with the vast majority of US city articles.

The second change I'd like to make is move the crime statistics out of Demographics. "Demographics" is the study of populations. Crime statistics don't really fit in that, unless you want prison populations. User:Magnolia77 objected to this, and I'm trying to reach a concensus at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. Nobody has proposed anything else. I want to emphasize that a consensus over there is not needed to edit the article here. But that guide needs help.

One alternative for the crime states is to put it in its own "crime" section for the time being, until the government/public safety parts of this article get improved. I'm also not sure why we even need the table of crime stats. featured articles of major cities with a much more notable history of crime don't have that table, I' don't see what it adds to this article, and removing it would fix the formatting issue User:Nikkimaria .

This article isn't considered "good" and it's a very very long way from featured. Can we be a little bold,and stop reverting every minor edit? Also, I've been waiting for 6 days so far for anyone to give me reason to keep crime stats in demographics. I've yet to see a single reason! 

AlleyRegent69 (talk) 15:32, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
No comment on the placement of crime, although if you're seeking consensus at the WikiProject it'd probably be best to let that play out rather than discussing it here simultaneously. But I did make an alternative suggestion on the census data: move it to a subarticle and keep an appropriate summary here. Particularly given that, relative to typical US city articles, this table is quite long. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:16, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Boston is a featured article with a slightly longer historical census table. It's single-column right-aligned, first thing in the demographics. I don't think any cities have a subarticle for the census data. It is possible to collapse the table, which I'll try out after posting this.
I think it makes sense to have a separate discussion here, because WP:USCITY#Demographics is inconsistently applied across wikipedia. There never was a discussion where to place the crime statistics, and WP:USCITY is only a guideline. I think we should develop better guidelines, but until then we should get the crime stats out of demographics since it's just abusing the definition of the word "Demographics". The only reason so many pages have crime stats under Demographics is inertia. Until that guideline is sorted, I'll invest time in improving the Providence article. AlleyRegent69 (talk) 23:53, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
There are many examples of subarticles for demographics - eg Demography of London. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:13, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
Good point! But I think that might only work for very large, historical cities like London and NYC. Maybe there's enough info for a Demography of Rhode Island article? I think it would be difficult to make a Demography of Providence (or RI) article without becoming a database. With enough secondary sources that add context I think it could be done, but IDK. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 18:21, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
I just picked a random example - there are certainly also instances of such articles for smaller less-historical cities, such as Demographics of Utica, New York or Demographics of Holyoke, Massachusetts. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples! I was looking, and the smallest city I saw was Philly, but the utica and holyoke articles look good to me. Some of the references on the Holyoke page look like they could be a help for Providence, too. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 23:15, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
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