Talk:Qadian

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Education[edit]

In the list of education providers

The underlined abbreviations should be expanded, unless they are abbreviations in the official name itself.

"New generation computer centre main bazar qadian" looks like a name or a description, plus a location. If it really is a name the words should be capitalized; and unless "Main Bazar Qadian" is really part of the name of the institution, it should be deleted.

Thnidu (talk) 02:47, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hindi Spelling[edit]

@Anupam: - Yes I know that Hindi Wikipedia has spelt it wrong (and so has Gurmukhi Wikipedia for that matter) - and I was not able to change it. Find images of the 'Qadian Railway station' and you will find that the correct Hindi spelling is 'कादियां' not 'क़ादियाँ'. If not here are the references - [1], [2] and [3]. I'm guessing 'क़ादियाँ' was a transliteration of English 'Qadian'. نعم البدل (talk) 02:10, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Hindi Wikipedia has spelled the name of the city correctly. I will continue to revert you if you insert the wrong spelling of the city again. In practice, nuqtas are often ignored, as I explained to you earlier, though a significant number of sources will use them, such as this one. Here, and on Wiktionary, I see that you are trying to differentiate Hindi and Urdu in every possible instance you can and this seems to be WP:AGENDA-driven. As I informed you in the past, the text Dialect Accent Features for Establishing Speaker Identity, authored by Manisha Kulshreshtha and Ramkumar Mathur and published by Springer, states, with respect to Hindi that "A few sounds, borrowed from the other languages like Persian and Arabic, are written with a dot (bindu or nuktā). Many people who speak Hindi as a second language, especially those who come from rural backgrounds and do not speak conventional Hindi (also called Khariboli), or speak in one of its dialects, pronounce these sounds as their nearest equivalents." The educated class, native to the Hindi-Urdu heartland of Delhi and Lucknow, will always pronounce these sounds correctly and thus, there would be no pronunciation difference between Urdu and Hindi. Please cease edit warring or the solution will probably be to remove the IPA altogether. I note that you are trying to change the spelling of the article on Hindi Wikipedia; you should wait until a consensus is reached there, rather than edit warring here. I should caution you that further reverts will result in you breaching WP:3RR, which will result in a block. I am going to ping User:Hunnjazal and User:AryamanA, who are skilled in linguistics with respect to Hindi to monitor this situation. AnupamTalk 03:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Anupam: Wow - I don't know where to start with your reply. 1. What's there to say that the link did not cite Wikipedia for Hindi names? After all when you search क़ादियाँ on 'google' - no published book comes up with that spelling, on the contrary only Wiki or rip-offs of Wiki links come up, or sub-par news articles. The news article that you cited doesn't even have a body, let alone any sources, and just a YouTube video, which the thumbnail, amusingly, has 'कादियां'. I'm actually quite surprised that you thought that website was worthy of even being cited. 2. Anupam - please bear this in mind, that while I do take an interest in linguistics and topics surrounding the Hindustani language - I do not take it upon myself to bring it into every single debate, like you've attempted to do here, so please, do not turn it into that - you know well this has nothing to do with that. How are you going to say that I am the one that is apparently "WP:AGENDA-driven" when I literally told you that the correct term cited, literally, everywhere, with references, including images from the actual town uses the spelling 'कादियां' - can you prove me otherwise? Well you clearly can't - because the only reference you could bring was a dubious news article. 496 links on Google search mention "क़ादियाँ" (most of which are Wiki links) vs 6960 links which mention the term "कादियां" - mainly non-wiki links.
In fact, the only proper attested source that I could find, which used 'क़ा' was by the Ahmadiya community, who seem to give preference to the Urdu name by using the variant 'क़ादियान'.[1]
P.s I feel sorry for Aryaman, who's notifications must be filled by your pings - I find it slightly entertaining that you feel the need involve him here, merely to decide the correct spelling. Which I don't see how he would do, unless he happens to be from the town. نعم البدل (talk) 04:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Every single user who has edited this page, and the version on Hindi Wikipedia, has used the spelling of the city with the nuqta in reference to Hindi (cf. Exhibit A, Exhibit B and Exhibit C). It is only you who attempts to remove nuqtas for Hindi spellings when it was decided on Wiktionary that nuqtas will be retained with respect to Hindi lemmas as they faithfully preserve the pronunciation of the words (cf. WP:RF). To prove your point, you even went to Hindi Wikipedia in order to try to change the spelling of the city (an article which I have never edited before)! You need to understand that nuqtas are usually ignored in typing (hence the Google results), but that does not change the actual pronunciation of the word. Educated Hindi speakers will always pronounce the word properly, as I noted by quoting a textbook above. An example, which I have shared with you before, is the lyrics of the song Kismat Se Tum Hum Ko Mile. Though the lyrics may not contain the nuqta (in this case they do), the pronunciation is always preserved as seen by the singer, i.e. क़िस्मत. As such, Wikipedia will reflect that. You bring up the spelling क़ादियान. I am totally fine with using that too, as that is an accurate pronunciation of the city, and actually the preferred version that I originally added to the article. I have restored the IPA corresponding to the one currently used on Hindi Wikipedia to remain faithful to that. On Wiktionary, you admitted that you do not have much interaction with Hindi speakers; since that is the case, please defer to native Hindi speakers who all have used the appropriate pronunciation across Wikimedia projects. AnupamTalk 05:00, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What? Anupam you're being absurd now. When did I EVER object to nuqtas in being used for Indic scripts on Wiktionary? You are now totally making this stuff up - and I don't know why you seem to think that I assume that Perso-Arab sounds aren't pronounced in Hindi - because I don't. I'll be talking note of this, and I hope you do too as an admin of Wiktionary - @AryamanA:.
Also when I said I didn't have much interaction with Hindi speakers - I meant in regards to the different dialects of Hindi. I would probably leave the Wiktionary discussion to Wiktionary.
Exhibit A and Exhibit B - both use 'क़ादियान' - which is a transliteration of the Urdu spelling - which I mentioned in my reply (in an edit) - which is not the official spelling - ie. spellings used in Newspapers or signboards or by locals etc. The Hindi article (Exhibit C) is nothing but a stub - were there any references given for that spelling? No. Just another contributor who probably assumed the spelling - which is the case for a lot of the articles on Hindi Wikipedia.
Again - I do not know how to make it more clearer to you Anupam - I changed the spelling on Hindi Wikipedia because THAT is that more used spelling, that I've seen and read - why are you just trying to turn it into another linguistics debate? نعم البدل (talk) 05:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And by the way, I've found some videos of the various pronunciations of 'Qadian' in Hindi vs Urdu. Unsurprisingly, none of them pronounce it as 'क़ादियाँ', though I've seen it be pronounced as 'क़ादियान' in one video (where the journalist really attempted to pronounce 'q' - News Nation 1:02. Other videos (vlogs etc, not news) - they pronounced it as 'कादियां' [4] (video NSFW), [5], [6]. And just for reference, here is a video of 'Qadian' being pronounced in Urdu - [7] 1:16 (repeated many times) and skip to for the non-poetic part 3:29. There is a clear difference between the Urdu pronunciation and the Hindi pronunciation, where in the latter the 'q' isn't pronounced. 05:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC) نعم البدل (talk) 05:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In agreement with Anopam, نعم البدل should stop changing the Hindi pronunciation of this city. The assumption, often made by Pakistanis, that Hindi-speakers cannot pronounce "qa" and "za" is false as Hindi has characters for these words. Editorkamran (talk) 06:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran: Again, as I pointed out to Anupam, I have never specifically said or assumed that. Then again, I've noticed that you and Anupam tend to be of the same minds. نعم البدل (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point that you seem to be missing is that words in Hindi are sometimes spelled without nuqtas even though the pronunciation is preserved. Take the sentence "जमीन बहुत ज्यादा गीला है |" for example. When an urban Hindi speaker looks at this sentence, he/she will pronounce it as "Zamen bahut zyaada geela hai", not "Jameen bahut jyaada geela hai", unless he/she is from a rural area. "ज़मीन बहुत ज़्यादा गीला है |" for the untrained eye preserves the way it actually sounds and those who are careful will write it this way even though most do not as people are usually in a hurry. Hindi does not assert any separate pronunciation than Urdu for this city, as you seem to want the article to claim. We have the character "क़" and so it's better to use it in this situation. A government of India website uses the nuqta form as well [8], but even if it didn't, the Wikipedia still should for the correct way of enunciating the word. Editorkamran (talk) 18:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran and Anupam: Yet, you've not been able to prove that the term "क़ादियाँ" is used in official cases - or anywhere really. The website you provided isn't a government website. I mean, just look at the footer of the website, nor is it a .gov link. The only variant that uses 'क़' is 'क़ादियान' - which is transliteration of the Urdu, propagated by the Ahmadiyya community - which I gave a reference for. Here are images of Qadian's railway station: [9]; [10] - it even has the Urdu spelling, yet no 'क़'. I have given you links to videos (of pronunciations), references to news articles, and even a comparison of the usage of the lemmas. All say that "क़ादियाँ" is pretty much a made up variant. Otherwise the actual dominant Hindi spelling, along with the pronunciation is in fact 'कादियां'.
I don't understand what there is left to discuss - and please do not keep banging on about how the nuqta's aren't written - YES I AM AWARE, and I have taken it into account! The Hindi variant never had a nuqta to begin with! On the other hand, you can't seem to understand that sometimes misspellings can occur or people sometimes don't know the spelling and can sometimes guess it! نعم البدل (talk) 23:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:نعم البدل, क़ादियाँ, क़ादियान, and क़ादियां are all widely used. We have discussed sources for the first two spellings, and for the latter, there are several sources (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, and Exhibit D for example). I am willing to accept any of these three forms, but will absolutely not accept a spelling without the nuqta. Hindi and Urdu have the same pronunciation for this word, given that Hindi-Urdu is one language with two standard registers. Though you state that you "have taken it into account", I will repeat this again: in common practice, many people do not write the nuqta in Hindi lemmas in the same way that many people do not write vowel markers for Urdu lemmas. Qadian begins which a q, not a k; in the Devanagari script, this is rendered by क़ and in Nastaleeq, this is rendered by ق. You can take your pick out of the three spellings I offered above, as the pronunciations are equally valid, and are used, as evidenced by results in any search engine. With regards, AnupamTalk 00:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Anupam:
> I will repeat this again: in common practice, many people do not write the nuqta in Hindi lemmas in the same way that many people do not write vowel markers for Urdu lemmas.
Oh no, not this argument again.
> I am willing to accept any of these three forms, but will absolutely not accept a spelling without the nuqta.
Meh. Why do I not get to present the options?
Alright, let me explore the options then. I would've even considered removing IPA altogether but people would add them back in so:
> क़ादियाँ
Definitely not.
> क़ादियां
This one suffices for the Hindi Wiki page title, but not for the IPA pronunciation. The locals definitely don't make the extra effort in pronouncing 'q'. So I'd have to pick क़ादियान for the IPA pronunciation.
So, all in all, it could look like this? (Punjabi pronunciation: [käːd̪ijä̃ː]; Hindustani pronunciation: [qɑːd̪ijɑ̃ːn]) نعم البدل (talk) 15:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in agreement with your last suggestion User:نعم البدل. Feel free to go ahead and make the change! As far as your suggestion to use क़ादियां on Hindi Wikipedia, I am fine with that too and have replied there expressing my agreement. Thanks for your efforts in helping to reach consensus here. With regards, AnupamTalk 15:35, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Glad we could come to an agreement. نعم البدل (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Anupam On a sidenote, as i can't bear misinfo, No. most Hindi speakers don't pronounce the nuqta sounds, even the L1 ones. You are surely mistaken in this case. Even most Urdu speakers don't the pronounce guttural sounds. कालमैत्री (talk) 04:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You don't pronounce ज़ and फ़? 178.120.22.167 (talk) 06:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "क़ादियान: अहमदियत का आध्यात्मिक जन्मस्थान". Light of Islam (in Hindi). Retrieved 2023-01-03.
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