Talk:Ratter (dog)

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Rat killing[edit]

You deleted and I restored:
"In conjunction with the American rat terrier, it was reported that one of the sports of owning them was making competitive wagers about whose dog could kill the most mice or rats within a given time. According to the 1993 Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World, a terrier was released into a barn and in 7 hours it killed 2501 rats."[1] The source says what it says. That you don't like it carries no weight. WP:Verifiability not WP:Truth. You cast aspersions without any source. Your claims at to size, timing and frequency aren't in the source, and are just mere speculation on your part. I've documented the source. 'nuf said. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]


2501 rats per:

TERRIER] rat attack of North Carolina.

And we have some specifics of the event in the following:

Most rat hunting is done with dogs, commonly with varieties of terriers that catch and kill the vermin. The human hunter’s job: flush the rats from cover. The rat hunting record for that method supposedly occurred in England in the 1820’s, when a rat terrier killed an incredible 2,501 rats in seven hours in a barn infested with the rodents. The dog was the renowned Billy, whose career was legendary. I haven’t found contemporary records of the 2,501 rat killing, but they may exist. Most of his records are for killing 100 rats in a rat pit against the clock. Billy’s best was 100 rats in 5 1/2 minutes. I haven’t seen any records for human hunters killing rats . . . [2]

As further context, we can watch or read the following:

1. rat catching with farm dogs about 250 rats part 1 rats fail

2. Rat Terrier “Exterminator dog” per the AKC.

3. Robertson, Elizabeth, D.V.M. (April 21, 2021) The Best Dog Breeds for Killing Rats [[National Canine Research Association of America]

4. Amazing Rat Catching With Farm Dogs Kill About 500 Rats!

5. Ratting Dogs: Dogs, Not Cats, Are the Ultimate Rat Hunters! “Ratting dogs or ratter dog breeds are glorious. It’s funny that cats get all of the attention for being rat killers when, in reality, the terriers are absolute killing machines.”

6. Rat Terrier savearescue.org

This ought to end your Tilting at windmills for today. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:41, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Wilcox, Bonnie, DVM; Walkowicz, Chris (1993). Rat Terrier. Vol. 2 (4th ed.). Neptune, New Jersey: T.F.H. pp. 714–715. ISBN 0-86622-873-X. ISBN 0-86622-855-1. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ Weingarten, Dean. (May 25, 2016) Record Wisconsin Rat Hunt in 1957 The Truth About Guns
User:DragonflySixtyseven: Your wrote: "for something that unbelievably stupid, you need to not just cite your source, but attribute it." I've attributed it. Your retraction can be put here. Happy holidays. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:16, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
7 hours equals 420 minutes, which equals 25200 seconds, and therefore 2501 rats in 25200 seconds is an average of one rat every ten point zero zero one seconds. That is how arithmetic works. Rats have mass, which does not disappear once the rats die. That is how rats work. Even the most enthusiastic and energetic dog experiences fatigue. That is how dogs work.
I note that SaveARescue uses the word "reported", and that Weingarten includes the word "supposedly". I note that Weingarten describes the record of 100 rats in 5 1/2 minutes (attributed to the same dog) as having been in a "rat pit", which one can reasonably assume was pre-filled, instead of in a barn where the dog would have to not only catch and kill the rats, but find them. I note that he describes these incidents as having taken place in the 1820s.
The videos show farm dogs − not all of whom are rat terriers − very energetically and enthusiastically catching and killing rats. I have never disputed that this is something that happens. What I'm saying is that for one dog, by himself, to catch and kill 2501 rats within a seven-hour period, is an order of magnitude away from what's plausible. The anecdote about Weingarten's friend is, interestingly, about an order of magnitude away from the tale of Billy the Terrier: 365 rats shot in an 8-hour period − and Weingarten's friend used spotlighting to draw the rats out.
Guinness credits Billy with 4000 rats in a 17-hour period, which is still one rat every 15 seconds over a 17-hour period. However, the incident for which it gives details is 100 rats in 5 1/2 minutes, "at the Cockpit in Tufton Street, Westminster, London, UK, on 23 April 1825." 100 rats in 5 1/2 minutes is an average of one rat every three point three seconds, which would be even less plausible if it were to continue for 7 hours. A five-minute killing frenzy, sure, I can accept that, but sprints are not marathons and marathons are not sprints.
"The Guinness Book of World Records states that the 'fastest canine rat catcher' was a "bull and terrier" dog named Billy, who killed 100 rats in 3 minutes 30 seconds (average of one rat every 3.3 seconds) at an event in 1825. Guinness also credits Billy with having killed 4,000 rats within a 17-hour period (average of one rat every 15.3 seconds) on an unspecified occasion; other sources credit him with killing 2501 rats within a 7-hour period (average of one rat every 10 seconds)." How's that?
I wouldn't have been able to find this without you linking to Weingarten, who provided the detail that the dog's name was "Billy", so... thank you. DS (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What we started with here was the simple statement of a report in a dog encyclopedia. You folks beat me down before on this, and I let it go at the time. I chose to respond to your reopening missive on my talk page. We now know what the reports are; and they are higher than the challenged language. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The detailed report (100 in 3m30) is the most credible, if only because it is the most detailed, and so should be first; the others can be mentioned as other claims. Good? DS (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, 7&6=thirteen, DragonflySixtyseven, this is another fine mess! We have reports from the early nineteenth century of a dog called Billy and a bitch called Jenny Lind killing prodigious numbers of rats in a short time. Billy's time is not reported as 3m 30s in any source that I can see. Guinness gives 5m 30s, but historic sources (this from 1822, this from 1857) don't seem to support that claim, giving various other slightly higher numbers. My interpretation of the other claim in the Guinness text ("Billy dispatched 4,000 rats in 17 hours") is that over the five years 1820–1824 it's claimed that he killed a total of 4000 in a total time of 17 hours.
Then we have a different claim relating to a undated feat in an unknown place by an unnamed Rat Terrier – a breed that, as I understand it, has early origins going back to the late nineteenth century, and breed recognition dating to a decade or so ago. I can't really imagine that a record-breaking rat-killing contest in the United States within the last 25 years or so could have escaped the notice of the American press, so if there was one it shouldn't be hard to find some solid WP:RS that discuss it. It seems more likely that this is just so much eyewash, attribution of the achievements of early nineteenth-century British dogs to a modern American one in order to legitimise its history (or compensate for the lack thereof). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your disdain and suspicion amounts to ZERO. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 01:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
("3 minutes" was a braino on my part, because 5 minutes = 300 seconds. Corrected.) DS (talk) 04:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Breeds that have the word "ratter" in their name?[edit]

I removed from the article the text "... sometimes it only includes the breeds that have the word "ratter" in their name ..." because as far as I can see there is no such breed, which makes it kind of superfluous to mention. 7&6=thirteen reverted that. So now I'm interested to know which breeds do have the word "ratter" in their name; none is listed here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen any breed with such a name. But there could be. Lots of languages and dog breed names change and vary over time.
"Ratter" describes a type, purpose, use and a behavior. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:17, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So you don't actually have a source that says that such breeds exist? There could be breeds with any word in their name. If you don't have a source, out it comes. DS (talk) 14:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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