Talk:Richard Avedon

High school/University?

Many of the sources I've found say that he dropped out of high school and went to work for a photo company before joining the merchant marines, while others say that he went to high school (no mention of graduating, though) and then attended Columbia, and then joined the merchant marines.

Can anyone shed any light on this subject?

Edit: I contacted both the DeWitt Clinton Alumni Association as well as the Columbia University Department of Public Affairs. A representative of the DeWitt Clinton Alumni Association replied with the following email:

"I am responding on behalf of the DeWitt Clinton Alumni Association.

Richard Avedon left Clinton in the spring term of 1941 without receiving a diploma. I have never seen his permanent record to know if he would have graduated in June 1941 or if he was missing credits that would have held him back a semester or so. He is not listed in any graduation program, naturally.

I have no doubt that the appearance of DeWitt Clinton in all his biographies has to do with his friendship with classmate James Baldwin.

I cannot answer about Columbia."

Would it be possible to cite this somehow in the article?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kari marie (talk • contribs) 19:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC) 

Untitled

Why is he in bisexual? There is no info or source only mention of wives...where are the boyfriends?

• Good point, perhaps we should remove the tag until some documentation is offered. SteveHopson 15:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
• As an archivist at the Richard Avedon Foundation who has access to personal correspondences, tape and video recordings of conversations with friends and colleagues, and candid photographs of private moments, I can say that there is nothing in the collection that points to Avedon's supposed bisexuality. He has, however, taken a few beautiful photographic portraits that depict intimate, not graphic, moments between homosexuals that have since become iconographic images. Perhaps some admirers of these images have confused his work with his personal life.(Audreynevada (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)audreynevada)

my contribution was removed

hi...

this site is great and i love it but i have a question...(i'm not really upset, just confused..)

i contributed 2 pics to Richard Avedon's page 1st one was the Time cover with Cher (it was moved but it looks ok where its at)...

and i put a pic of Nastassia Kinski with serpant which is nowhere to be found on his page..why was it removed?

i placed it next to the list of famous Avedon photos and that one is named, so i figured to put it there...

i'm pretty sure i added the right tags to keep it there...who removed it and why?

also...did the same person move Cher to a different location...not that it matters but Cher really should be up top (along with Avedon's pic of course).

First: Welcome! Do, please sign your remarks on the talk page by using four tildes (~) That will place your name and datestamp. I'm the one that move the Cher photo and someone else made another improvement leaving my placement. I don't believe that it should be at top as the book cover is more representative. Also it was too large, so I scaled it to be similar to the other images. This makes a better layout. Don't know about the other photo. Doc 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Restored the other photo, not sure how it got deleted. Doc 22:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove the Kinski photo earlier but just removed it now, because it's a copyvio and not a legitimate fair use. The photo is copyrighted and not licensed under the GFDL nor in the public domain; and we can't just say "fair use" and post any photo we want on Wikipedia because it's a great photo. See Wikipedia:Fair use. Tempshill 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Avedon's pic of Cher: "famous"?

We read in a caption: Richard Avedon's famous Time cover of Cher. I'm no expert on Avedon (or Cher), but I'd never heard of this. Moreover, it seems (by Avedon's standards) peculiarly uninteresting. I'm sure that the resolutely middlebrow Time prevented him from doing anything out of the ordinary, and that he earned his fee, but I don't see what this image is doing in the article at all, let alone why it's called "famous". -- Hoary 02:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I can definitely scan the liner notes if need be, but here's even more compelling evidence: John Kelly's own website, featuring his famous photographs. No doubt he wouldn't take official credit on his own website if they weren't his!

http://www.johnkellyfilmsfotos.com/Work.html

'Personal Life' Section

I've merged the 'Marriages' and 'Death' sections into a 'Personal Life' section. I think this is neater and more in keeping with other biographical entries. Hope there's no objections. JMalky (talk) 09:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Norma Stevens, Avedon’s longtime studio director, Avedon confided in her about his homosexual relationships, including a decade-long affair with director Mike Nichols. This was reported in today's New York Times in a review of Stevens' new book about Avedon (http://nyti.ms/2BdXu3X). Before adding that to the 'Personal Life' section (referencing the book) I figured I'd check with veteran editors here because I know how sensitive the topic of sexuality can be. Any reason I should not update the article with that information? Thanks. Benccc (talk) 02:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC) Update: I have added the information to the article, sourcing both the book and the New York Times review of the book, which mentions that passage in particular. Benccc (talk) 18:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Stevens' allegations may be questionable. The reviewer of her book seemed to think so: "The most intimate detail Stevens was conscripted to reveal was Avedon’s homosexuality. Stevens alone, of all his friends, knew of it (or so she alleges)." Furthermore, in Wikipedia's article on Nichols there is no mention of Avedon, or any suggestion that he was gay. I won't remove the last paragraph of the section because I don't have any proof that Stevens was unreliable in her story. Cunningpal (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Further to what I wrote above, here is a specific rebuttal to Stevens' story by Mark Harris, the author of a comprehensive biography of Nichols:

• In the 2017 Avedon biography Something Personal, Avedon’s former assistant Norma Stevens asserts that Avedon, who was either bisexual or homosexual, told her that he and Nichols had a romantic relationship that lasted ten years, quoting him (via Stevens’s memory) as saying, “At one point we even thought about running away together. Eloping, we called it—leaving our wives and our lives and moving to Gay Paree . . . We chickened out, but we were together for years.” Rumors of Nichols’s bisexuality persisted throughout his career and were a subject of speculation by some of those who knew him, and he and Avedon certainly could have had an affair. But nothing in the circumstances of Nichols’s life suggests they had anything like a long sexual relationship. The notion of two well-known, careerist men in 1962 discussing “eloping” feels anachronistic. And the remarks the book posthumously attributes to Avedon—“He’s above me intellectually, but I’m the artist, so it evens out . . . We’re equally corrupt. We were made for each other”—owe more to All About Eve than to reality. In researching this biography, I remained open to any information about Nichols’s history with men that was specific and/or confirmable; I found none. If I had, I would not have considered it to be embarrassing, scandalous, or necessary to suppress—nor was I ever asked to.

Harris, Mark. Mike Nichols (p. 673). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. Cunningpal (talk) 16:41, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

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Questions concerning Richard Avedon's birth name and year of graduation from DeWitt Clinton High School

Some Internet biographies state that Richard Avedon graduated from DeWitt Clinton High School in 1941, while other biographies state that he dropped out of the school. If you go to Classmates.com, you can peruse the 1941 DeWitt Clinton High School yearbook online. There is a listing for Richard P. Avonda and a listing for Frank P. Avonda; the two people are identical twins. The photograph of Richard P. Avonda looks like Richard Avedon, and I am fairly certain that Richard Avonda and Richard Avedon are the one and the same person. It looks like Richard Avonda changed his name to Richard Avedon after he graduated (left?) DeWitt Clinton High School. Many professional people don't like to use a surname that ends in a vowel.

I find it impossible to believe that there were two different people named Avonda and Avedon at DeWitt Clinton High School in the same graduating class. There is no listing for a Richard Avedon in the 1941 DeWitt Clinton yearbook. I am fairly certain that he changed his name at a later date. For these reasons, I edited the article to show that his birth name was Avonda and his father's name was Avonda.

Once again, the ONLY way that you can positively verify this information is to go directly to Richard Avedon himself. Since he is no longer with us, you need to contact his immediate family for secondhand information. Yearbooks don't tell lies; I firmly believe that Richard Avedon (aka Richard Avonda) left DeWitt Clinton High School in June, 1941.

In an amazing coincidence, I know someone who was in the class of 1941 at DeWitt Clinton. Many years ago, I worked with a guy named Martin Kloomok, who graduated from DeWitt in 1941. One of Marty's classmates would go on to become a world famous photographer.

Anthony22 (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately the information above is WRONG. Please see note below which I received directly from the Avedon foundation with respect to this issue. I do not know wiki "shorthand" but if you e-mail to me I can validate what I say by forwarding the e-mail from the Avedon Foundation. Below is a cut and paste of the text of the e-mail. Thus, the entry should be corrected to reflect that he did not appear in his Senior yearbook and omit reference to Avonda....just not true or correct. Seth Poppel

Hello Seth,

I am glad that you wrote. We have tried several times to change that Wikipedia entry, and someone keeps changing it back! Richard P. Avonda is absolutely not Richard Avedon. Also, Richard Avedon absolutely did not have a twin brother named Frank! We have a birth certificate, family tree, and many personal family photographs to verify the fact that Avedon is, in fact, the correct surname and that it was never changed - not by Richard Avedon or by his father, grandfather, etc. This is a rumor that has been based on the yearbook photo that you attached to your email, and which has been passed around as "evidence" on websites like classmates.com. The yearbook photo is of someone named Richard P. Avonda, a young man who happens to have a name that is similar to the photographer's. They are emphatically not the same person.

It would be wonderful to crush this rumor once and for all.

Grateful for your diligence,

Audrey Chaney

Audrey Nevada Chaney Archive Manager The Richard Avedon Foundation 25 W. 53rd St. Floor 16 New York, NY 10016 (212) 581-5058 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethpoppel (talk • contribs) 18:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The birth name Avonda appears in several reliable sources - such as here [1] - this source does indeed mention twin also. This is a reputable source and so birth name should remain in article.

Artiquities (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

If you would check the source cited, which is the Archive Manager for the Richard Avedon Foundation who is in possession of his birth certificate you will find that this is much more of a primary source than the incorrect collection of incidentals leading to a false conclusion by a magazine article writer. Seth Poppel˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethpoppel (talk • contribs) 06:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sethpopel - as you mentioned you are new to WP great and welcome again. Please read our guidelines on birth certificates etc WP: OR. Inclusion of material depends on it appearing in a reliable resource.

Artiquities (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe that e-mails from The Richard Avedon Foundation serve as the credible "printed" resource suggested. Seth Poppel ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethpoppel (talk • contribs) 11:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

They do not. They are not published, and anybody may claim to have received them. This does not mean that I disbelieve you; it instead means that I am forced to treat your reproduction of messages you claim to have received from the Richard Avedon Foundation (RAF) with the same skepticism that I'd expect from you had I posted what I claimed were messages from the RAF saying the exact opposite. ¶ This may sound Kafkaesque but there's a pretty straightforward solution. Ms Chaney, or somebody else in the RAF, should send email directly to Wikipedia. The process is described here; note the link about "Article subjects | Problems with articles about you, your company, or somebody you represent" (my emphasis). Click that and take the email option. The email will then be read and acted upon by a Wikipedia editor of a kind called "OTRS volunteer". ¶ This sounds like a chore, but if the message above is indeed by her (as I imagine it is) she could simply copy it an paste it into her email. And if there's a problem (e.g. tardiness by OTRS), let me know and I'll see what I can do (though I am not an OTRS volunteer myself). -- Hoary (talk) 12:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello, this is Ms. Chaney of the Richard Avedon Foundation. I just sent an email to info-en-q@wikimedia.org, but I am also posting the body of that email here: I am writing to correct an article on Richard Avedon ([2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Avedon) which claimed his original birth name was Avonda (wrong) and that he had an identical twin (also wrong). I am the Archive Manager at the Richard Avedon Foundation, a nonprofit institution that houses a permanent collection of Avedon's photographs, film, books, video, audio, and personal documents. The Foundation has Richard Avedon's birth certificate, a family tree, photos from childhood and adolescence, family correspondences, and many other primary source materials that prove that Avedon is the correct surname for the family and that Richard did not have a brother named Frank, twin or otherwise. Again, these are primary source materials. As we all know, scholarly practice ranks primary sources as more creditable than secondary sources, always. The Voguepedia is not even a cited work. Unfortunately, it has been difficult to work with Wikipedia to correct the problems with the Richard Avedon article because our source materials are private documents, and it is not our policy to post them onto the internet; however, interested scholars are welcome to contact the Foundation and schedule a visit, during which the viewing of materials is encouraged. If the above is not enough, then allow me to offer up some more accessible, online evidence. Simply visit ancestry.com and view the 1940 U.S. census for free. Look up Richard Avonda. You will find that he was born in a different year and that he has completely different family members (first names - and last names, obviously - as well as a different number of people that make up his family) than Richard Avedon. Also, please notice that Frank Avonda, who was supposedly Richard Avedon's twin brother, isn't even the same age as the Richard Avonda from the Census. So not only is Frank not Richard Avedon's twin brother, he is not even Richard Avonda's twin brother. I have seen the high school yearbook photo of Richard Avonda, and I have seen numerous photos of a youthful Avedon. I can say with absolute certainty that they both are thin with dark hair, but the resemblance stops there. They do not look alike. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can do to help. Thank you for your interest in Avedon's life and work, and in your diligent pursuit of facts. Please accept my assistance in this matter. (Audreynevada (talk) 21:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)audreynevada in response to corrections to an article on Richard Avedon [3])

Hello, and thank you for writing to info-en-q@wikimedia.org. It's that message that will -- or should -- get the job done. (It will be read by an "OTRS volunteer". I am not one of these.)

You point out that primary sources trump secondary sources for scholarly work. Broadly, I agree. But this is one place where Wikipedia consciously (and I believe rightly) differs from academia; please see this. And bluntly, because anybody here may claim to be anybody in the real world, a claim here (unlike one to an OTRS volunteer) to be anyone or to have access to this or that unpublished information must be ignored.

What I can say is that exceptional claims require exceptional sources; and therefore that the website of Vogue, though perhaps a reliable source for what work Avedon did for Vogue, is not an adequate source for a claim such as a change of surname, which is remarkable and (even if it were true) not obviously relevant in any way to Avedon's work for Vogue. -- Hoary (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess that I stand corrected in my assumption that Richard Avonda and Richard Avedon were the same person. It is an absolutely amazing coincidence that there were a Richard Avonda and a Richard Avedon at DeWitt Clinton High School at the same time. The first names are identical, and the last names are quite similar but very unusual. I have never heard of anyone else with the surname Avonda or Avedon. Also, I don't understand why Richard Avedon's picture was not in the DeWitt Clinton High School yearbook. In an unrelated coincidence, my father went to DeWitt Clinton High School about a dozen years before Avedon. DeWitt Clinton has been in the news recently. The school is showing its age, and they're thinking of splitting it up into two different entities.

Anthony22 (talk) 21:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

If you google avonda -avedon and avedon -"richard avedon", you'll find others with these admittedly unusual surnames. And Richard was a very popular name in the US in the 20s. -- Hoary (talk) 01:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

We received the e-mail on OTRS. I responded to Audreyavedon (ticket#2013012810012346), but it looks like you guys have already discussed this and come to a consensus here, so the e-mail doesn't really matter anymore. That is great. :-) Cbrown1023 talk 03:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hoary asked me to add more information here. I didn't comment very much the first time, because it looked like the issue had been solved when I processed the ticket on OTRS. Hoary mentioned that it would be better to give something more concrete here.

Audrey did in fact e-mail us at OTRS with the same e-mail she posted here, and her credentials appear to check out as far as I can tell. (She e-mailed from an address associated with the Richard Avedon Foundation.) This does not really help the discussion though, because we cannot cite what she says in the e-mail as a source of anything. That would be toeing the line of original research and definitely would not be verifiable to end users. E-mail's we receive on OTRS or that individual users receive do not count as a reliable source, even if it comes from an expert or credible person.

About the actual content dispute here. I don't see any evidence in the sources posted so far that Richard Avedon had a different birth name or that he had a twin. The current version of the Vogue page that I'm looking at makes no mention of a different name. In addition, anything that anyone found by looking at old yearbooks or through ancestry.com would be original research analysis of primary sources, and is not something that can be included in Wikipedia. It would be very hard to find a source to add to the article that says Richard Avedon's real name was not Richard Avonda, for the same reason it would be hard to find one that says his name wasn't "Barack Obama" or something like that. It's hard to prove that something untrue really is untrue. The only thing we can really do here is accept the fact that we all agree (based on the absence of many reliable, third-party sources that assert a different name) and that Audrey backed this up through the information the Richard Avedon Foundation has access to. As a result, if this issue comes up again, the information could really only be included if there multiple trustworthy sources that backed up a different name (e.g. there's a much higher standard for deeming that information credible and adding it to the article). Any "websites that aren't obviously laughable" would not really cut it, considering the information would have to be published in multiple places in order to be considered authoritative. Cbrown1023 talk 19:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I just finished reading a biography of Richard Avedon, which said that he flunked out of high school. This explains why his picture did NOT appear in the 1941 DeWitt Clinton High School yearbook. It is still an unbelievable coincidence that there was a Richard Avedon and a Richard Avonda at DeWitt Clinton High School at the same. In Avedon's case, a person doesn't need a first class formal education to make it big as a world class photographer.

Anthony22 (talk) 13:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I was browsing the Internet recently when I came upon a second biography of Richard Avedon. The biography stated that Avedon graduated from DeWitt Clinton High School in 1941 and then dropped out of Columbia University after one year. This seems logical. Avedon would not have dropped out of DeWitt and then gone on to Columbia. As far as I know, you have to graduate from high school before going on to college. This still does not explain why Avedon's picture was NOT in the 1941 DeWitt yearbook. Also, it is still a coincidence that there was a Richard Avonda at DeWitt that same year. It's too bad that Avedon is not still living. He is the one person who could clarify all the ambiguity.

Anthony22 (talk) 15:24, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to confirm that the following information posted was inaccurate. This is the daughter of Dr.Frank P. Avonda and niece of Dr. Richard Avonda. They were not twins, brothers 2 years apart. Richard was a radiologist in New York, and Frank was a organic chemist. Both are deceased and have no relation to the Avedon name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjavonda (talk • contribs) 17:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

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