Talk:Ronald Stuart

Gazette references

I've updated all the London Gazette references to the new format of url (they've completely revamped their website). I also found what I believe to be the citation for his son's DSC. I had hoped to find the details of his promotions and permission to accept foreign decorations too, but they're proving elusive. I did find this one, "No. 32973". The London Gazette. 12 September 1924. {{cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= (help), apparently re-promoting him to Lieutenant-Commander (presumably he reverted to lower rank at the end of the war, as was generally the case). David Underdown (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Just noticed this, thankyou.--Jackyd101 (talk) 01:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I note that the US Navy Cross is not incorporated in Lietenant-Commander Stuart's conventional post-nominals in the 1924 London Gazette. Doesn't this suggest that it is appropriate to remove the US decoration from the first line of this Wikipedia article? Also, does this Gazette entry suggest that perhaps the Wikipedia info box awards should list British honours before foreign decorations?

As for that WWII DSC awarded to Captain Stuart's son, does the link need to be tweaked in some minor fashion? More than once, I scanned the names on page 43 before it dawned on me to click "next" at the top of the web page which then allowed me to confirm that Sub-Lieutenant Ronald Neil Stuart's name is to be found on page 44 of Gazette Issue 36866 which was published on December 29, 1944. Is there some way to help others avoid something like the trivial confusion I encountered? --Tenmei (talk) 13:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether the Navy Cross has an official post-nominal designation, I put it there really to highlight it as it is an interesting aspect of the article. In any case, it would not appear in the gazette in 1924 because for some unknown reason it was not approved by the US authorities until 1928. I don't know if there actually is an guideline on how medal precedence is done in infoboxes where the medals of more than one country are awarded, I'll have to look into that. As for the problem with the gazette citation, I'll have a look and see if I can fix it.--Jackyd101 (talk) 15:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Jackyd101 -- Perhaps this is a good time to remind you of something you already know: These small matters are to be construed amongst the indices of excellence. If you stop to think about it for a moment, you'll be compelled to recognize that these kinds of comparatively trivial "problems" or questions only come to the fore when an article is extraordinarily well-constructed and well-supported by competent reference sources. --Tenmei (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused, was that a compliment? If so, thank you. I think I have now fixed the gazette problem although I'm still not fully sure on the others. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Was my comment intended as a complimentary observation? Yes, of course. Isn't this process sometimes described as "fine tuning"? The small star at the top right corner of this article is a commonly-understood mark of excellence; but the fine nature of the outstanding issues which are discussed on the talk page also points to a readily demonstrable conclusion -- that the Wikipedia article on Ronald Niel Stuart is well-constructed and well-supported, so well made in fact that the special nature of those problems which yet remain becomes itself a kind of rarely seen marker. I would have thought that if you're going to associate yourself with fine work, then you need to get used to accepting a compliment delivered in a form similar to the one which your own attention to detail has created. Not wanting to dwell on this overmuch, but there you have it.

My writing is sometimes too oblique. --Tenmei (talk) 20:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Well thankyou very much, the compliment was appreciated, if not initially understood. It is gratifying that you have enjoyed it and these small issues can be discussed at depth.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it foreign decorations don't generally confer postnomials (they are less commonly used outside the Commonwealth anyway). On the gazette ref, There's a balance to strike between immediately showing the relevant name, but it being unclear that it the decoration being awarded (or whatever) is correctly described. The full range of page numbers should always be included in the reference, which I've always hoped would be enough to indicate that you need to move through the pages - partly it's a problem in the way that the scans are done, each page is presented as a separate pdf document, so there's no way of viewing multiple pages together.

ronald stuart VC

hello. the birth certificate of Ronald Stuart records his middle name as NIEL. But, his father's first name, usually spelled NEIL within the family, is also recorded on the certificate as NIEL. it would appear that the NIEL spelling was an error by the Registrar on the birth certificate.Scom46 (talk) 10:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Potentially useful source book?

hello. you should look at Liverpool VCs by james murphy(pen and sword books) which details ronald's career, and also gives a second instance of his courage aboard HMS Tamarisk when going to the aid of another stricken american vessel, USS manley, five months after the incident with USS Cassin. HMS tamarisk was an aubretia convoy sloop, tasked with convoy protection in the western approaches. it is still debatable whether it held Q-11, Q-ship designation. Scom46 (talk) 10:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Just newly published, not yet widely available --

• Murphy, James. (2008). Liverpool VCs. Barnsley, England: Pen and Sword Books. 10-ISBN 1-844-15780-6; 13-ISBN 978-1-844-15780-8 --Tenmei (talk) 13:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

OCLC shows copies only in British Library and in Timaru District Libraries, New Zealand. --Tenmei (talk) 13:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Frequent Vandalism

Since this article is featured on the front page (last time I checked), and since we've had persistant vandalism, I think someone needs to semi-protect the article (I'm new here, so I don't know the procedure particularely well). There has been three instances in the past hour by multiple users.

In addition, I think someone should add the ((subst:uw-vandalism1|Ronald_Niel_Stuart)) header to the page. I'm holding off for more vandalism before I post it. The Legacy (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

-MBK₀₀₄ 19:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

"Eventually, after several years service he achieved his Internet Coffee Phone qualifications and gained a job with the Allan Line as a junior officer." I guess this should not be this way. I dunno how to revert it, but it is an error. Signed: an IP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.74.61 (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Name inconsistency

Throughout the article, including its title, his second name is variously spelled "Neil" or "Niel", as acknowledged ina footnote; this proceeds even to the point of the "Sr." and "Jr." having different spellings. The reason given seems trivial. Can't the inconsistencies be reconciled (and one version used in this article)? As it is, it just seems like repeated foolish errors on the part of different authors. Which it may well be. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes and reversions

The main problem with the recent change is that you are leaving in the existing footnote to Snelling's book, which if you chagne the information that it appears to refer to is misleading. If there are contradictions between sources, we need to discuss them here, and work out how to present those differences. It's not immediately obvious to me why that genealogy site would actually qualify as a reliable source, whereas as Snelling's book more obviously meets the criteria. David Underdown (talk) 14:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Dear David: Apologies if I left the footnote to Snelling's book but this entry is simply wrong. My great grandmother's name was Mary Harrison Banks she was from Liverpool not Australia and her family were ship owners at one stage. How they lost the ships is another story. She met my grandfather in Liverpool. They were in Canada for a while as my Aunt Katie was born in Levis Quebec.

Furthermore the entries about my Uncles are also wrong. Neil left the Conway for the Merchant Navy and only transferred to submarines later. Bill left the Conway directly for the Royal Navy and served throughout WWII and he only transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy after the war.

For all those who seemed to be curious about the inconsistency of spelling they should note that Stuart was also spelled inconsistently as my great grandfather from PEI's first language was Gaelic and spelling was never consistent among PEI Gaelic speakers in the English.

The medals by the way were donated to the National Maritime Museum not loaned. Neil

Thanks for the info, the problem is we're rather hamstrung by some of Wikipedia's policies, the reliable sources one I mentioned above, and verifiability, we really need published sources - I don't doubt you are who you say you are, but unfortunatley there's nothing to stop anyone else making the same claim. I'm having trouble getting intot he genealogical site at the moment, I'll try again later, even if it's not reliable in itself (so far as Wikipedia is concerned), it may point me in the right direction to find confirmation in the General Register Office indices, obviously a Liverpool marriage would appear in thsoe, whilst one in Montreal would not. David Underdown (talk) 15:54, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Dear David: The birth certificate entry for my great grandmother is in Births Mar 1849 Banks, Mary Harrison, Liverpool 20, 435. The family story as to how she met my great grandfather can be found here http://www15.pair.com/buchanan/genes/gsheets/banjparm.htm in the notes at the bottom of the page. I have never met Craig Buchanan but the IWS is my Uncle Ian. Note there is no mention of Australia. There were no central records in Canada while my great grandfather was living there. Great Aunt Katie never had a birth certificate and it was always a problem for her. As far as I know nothing I wrote about my Uncles is in conflict with any footnoted source. Bill unfortunately passed away some while ago, but he was definitely in the Royal Navy and went there straight from The Conway and only transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy after the war. My Uncle Neil was in the merchant navy and then transferred to submarines. If you are worried about sourcing why not take out the reference to my Uncles - at least it will not be incorrect. The correction from man to boy for my grandfather was because of his age. He went away to sea at sixteen and sixteen is not a man in my book. Neil

Hi, I was the person who expanded this article to FA standard, and there are a number of point worth taking on board when considering this information.

• The family geneology website (which I originally used to write the article) was deemed unreliable at FAC as it is self-published.
• The only other source available on Stuart's family was the Snelling book, which has been shown to be unreliable at other articles in the past. It remains however the only officially "reliable source" on this topic.

We therefore have reached a situation where an article contains probably incorrect information because the only available reliable source also contains it. Can Neil please provide a bullet point list of the disputed information below and we can work it out point by point - this seems to be the best approach to this problem at the moment.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

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